Opinions on Chameleon Pricing

Trace

Captain Awesome
If you advocate dropping prices ( remember Precision Labs???) until all commercial breeding stops, then the hobby either dies or resorts to mass importation of WCs. Even bedroom breeders tend to scale back after 1 or 2 clutches because of the lack of FREE time ( unrealized labour cost) to pursue continued hobby breeding.
He didn't go out of business because of his low prices. There were other factors - poor customer service, previous reputation and not to mention the backlash from other breeders worried about the low pricing that drove him out.
 

robmd1

Avid Member
less eggs per clutch-- come from a different region of the world. smaller babies.

50-80 eggs per clutch????? wtf panthers do you have..... i get 20-30? anyone else getting... 80 eggs out of a panther?
I think that was the point of the post look at it alil closer, they dont...
 

jrh3

Established Member
Its clear that if veileds are hard to find , they are under priced. The distributors continually beat down the prices until all production stops. Then, the cycle starts over again... higher prices... more veiled production.

Breeders won't produce veileds at a loss.

The cheap Panther model has already been tried before and failed. Sure you can raise panthers, build your own cages and grow your own feeders and sell them at $90.00, but what about all the labour and unrealized soft expense {rent( assuming your mom charges you for using the garage), electricity, etc.} that you are not factoring in?
Breed panthers for 10 years , sell them for $90.00 for 10 years , then see how much profit you made. I guarantee that you will be eating cat food from a can by year 2.
you cant charge labor unless you are doing it for a living, correct? a hobby is for fun, correct? What mom? i have a family and a 3000 square foot house, money is no option for me im well off, and i am this way because i made good investments throughout life, thats why i have a eye for a jacked price on a chameleon, I have bred panthers and there is no more price in it than a veiled. every other species has lowered once established in captivity except this one, why? you keep dropping the profit thing, which that makes the point plain and clear, every one is selling panthers because they are the most profitable, if veileds sold for 200 plus at 3 months you would be only selling them and not panthers.
 

jrh3

Established Member
I think that was the point of the post look at it alil closer, they dont...
Eactly but you can get the same hatch rate if not better from a panther if you do it right. I actually had more problems with the veileds than panthers, this is because the veileds are becoming more and more imbred.
 

ChromaChameleons

New Member
He didn't go out of business because of his low prices. There were other factors - poor customer service, previous reputation and not to mention the backlash from other breeders worried about the low pricing that drove him out.
Ya, he did go out of business , because his pricing was unsustainable.The other issues were symptoms of the shoestring model.

So should I lower my prices and charge for customer service and after the sales advice? Maybe drop the health guarantee? Maybe all the breeders should save the cost of site sponsorship , then pass those savings on to their customers? ( yup, that was sarcasm).

The pricing of Panthers is not one dimensional, as you would have everyone believe. Try running a commercial veiled and Panther business for 5 years ; then we will talk.

And, please explain what backlash from other breeders hastened their demise? No breeder has the power to run another competitor out of the market and there is no collusion among breeders or secret pact that could accomplish it either.

I'll say it again.... no one is in business to be eating cat food from a can!!!
 

Olimpia

Biologist & Ecologist
Lots holes in you statement. A pre owned animal is a used animal and in no way deserves the insane pricing seen here and elsewhere. So your saying you are nothing more than a price tag queen, you have no proof of any bloodlines except for someone elses word who is trying to make money off of you. People. Sell their veiled earlier because they aren't waiting to see a color pattern so they can Jack up the price. Common sense is learned not a gift.
I don't agree. You pay, let's say, $200 for a little brown baby panther, not really knowing exactly what you're getting (because we know they don't always turn out like carbon copies of their fathers). Why wouldn't you then sell the same animal for more when their full potential is realized? Now you can see exactly what the animal looks like, it's not an investment that you hope turns out how you want it to. I think that selling an adult panther for more makes all the sense in the world, you now have certainty if you're a breeder, not "fingers crossed!"

And what is this used thing? It sounds like you think all re-homed animals are "ruined" somehow, like they should be worth less just because they had a previous home?


To everyone that is on here who is arguing against panther prices and hates the species anyway, what's the point? You just sound bitter, honestly. If you don't agree with it, then don't do it. I don't like cats, so I'd never pay anything for a cat that I could get practically for nothing at a shelter. But I am, as we speak, sending a woman a nice check for a pure bred dog that I do like, and want very much. So to each their own, if you don't agree with it or want to support it then just don't. Keep working with the species you do like, and who knows, the market may even itself out in time.

I still don't think panther prices are that extravagant, compared to what other species go for CBB. $150-200 for a panther, $250-300 for a Meller's, $100 for a carpet... etc.
 

ChromaChameleons

New Member
you cant charge labor unless you are doing it for a living, correct? a hobby is for fun, correct? What mom? i have a family and a 3000 square foot house, money is no option for me im well off, and i am this way because i made good investments throughout life, thats why i have a eye for a jacked price on a chameleon, I have bred panthers and there is no more price in it than a veiled. every other species has lowered once established in captivity except this one, why? you keep dropping the profit thing, which that makes the point plain and clear, every one is selling panthers because they are the most profitable, if veileds sold for 200 plus at 3 months you would be only selling them and not panthers.
"you cant charge labour unless you are doing it for a living"

And that is exactly why you can't sustain it. You have now chosen NOT to donate the labour and free cost of space to those that you would sell $90.00 Panthers to. That makes you and me exactly the same. I WON'T donate the labour either.
 

okiroo

Avid Member
I don't agree. You pay, let's say, $200 for a little brown baby panther, not really knowing exactly what you're getting (because we know they don't always turn out like carbon copies of their fathers). Why wouldn't you then sell the same animal for more when their full potential is realized? Now you can see exactly what the animal looks like, it's not an investment that you hope turns out how you want it to. I think that selling an adult panther for more makes all the sense in the world, you now have certainty if you're a breeder, not "fingers crossed!"

And what is this used thing? It sounds like you think all re-homed animals are "ruined" somehow, like they should be worth less just because they had a previous home?


To everyone that is on here who is arguing against panther prices and hates the species anyway, what's the point? You just sound bitter, honestly. If you don't agree with it, then don't do it. I don't like cats, so I'd never pay anything for a cat that I could get practically for nothing at a shelter. But I am, as we speak, sending a woman a nice check for a pure bred dog that I do like, and want very much. So to each their own, if you don't agree with it or want to support it then just don't. Keep working with the species you do like, and who knows, the market may even itself out in time.

I still don't think panther prices are that extravagant, compared to what other species go for CBB. $150-200 for a panther, $250-300 for a Meller's, $100 for a carpet... etc.



hmmm i agree. i'd be willing to pay a good bit for a pure bread horse or cat or even a german shepard; however, not a bird or something. also carpets are very colorful and imho prittyer than most panthers. they only sell for 100 witch is really not very much money. mabey people swho want a colorful cham should get carpets instead of panthers. they are likely to stay high in proce beacuse theres so maney diffrent colors and sires to choose from. just like a pure bread dog.
 

jrh3

Established Member
Ya, he did go out of business , because his pricing was unsustainable.The other issues were symptoms of the shoestring model.

So should I lower my prices and charge for customer service and after the sales advice? Maybe drop the health guarantee? Maybe all the breeders should save the cost of site sponsorship , then pass those savings on to their customers? ( yup, that was sarcasm).

The pricing of Panthers is not one dimensional, as you would have everyone believe. Try running a commercial veiled and Panther business for 5 years ; then we will talk.

And, please explain what backlash from other breeders hastened their demise? No breeder has the power to run another competitor out of the market and there is no collusion among breeders or secret pact that could accomplish it either.

I'll say it again.... no one is in business to be eating cat food from a can!!!
If this is the case then why isnt every chameleon the same price? Also, ok just say this is business price, What about all the panthers in the classified section for the same price from non commercial big dealers. Health, and customer service has no price, weither backyard or mansion home breeders. Sure all breeders will defend this but why do you sell a veiled cheaper than a panther, is there really a 150 dollar per chameleon difference in raising them,,,,,haha no freakin way, Panthers are just the most profitable thats why you breed them. Please tell me i am lying.
 

drcrossfire

Avid Member
I think that was the point of the post look at it alil closer, they dont...
oh my bad---

i didn't read the sarcasm :p

If you look at the fancier Veileds, they are also more expensive.... so i guess when color matters, price goes up! as with all reptiles.

Look at crested geckos-- fancy colors get you $300.

Panthers-- strong coloration get you $$$

supply/demand/quality all determine price.

not wishing for something cheaper.
 

ChromaChameleons

New Member
If this is the case then why isnt every chameleon the same price? Also, ok just say this is business price, What about all the panthers in the classified section for the same price from non commercial big dealers. Health, and customer service has no price, weither backyard or mansion home breeders. Sure all breeders will defend this but why do you sell a veiled cheaper than a panther, is there really a 150 dollar per chameleon difference in raising them,,,,,haha no freakin way, Panthers are just the most profitable thats why you breed them. Please tell me i am lying.
I won't tell you that you are lying... I'll just tell you that you are wrong.
 

jrh3

Established Member
I won't tell you that you are lying... I'll just tell you that you are wrong.
Whats the difference in the price of raising the panther versus a carpet or veiled? All in all they are baby chameleons and most have the same requirements. I would just like to see them even out, they are easy, compared to a mellers or even a k. multi.

One Question: Can breed and raise panthers at the exact same cost as a veileds or do they cost 150 bucks more per chameleon to raise to sell? Simple yes or no. :cool:
 

ChromaChameleons

New Member
Whats the difference in the price of raising the panther versus a carpet or veiled? All in all they are baby chameleons and most have the same requirements. I would just like to see them even out, they are easy, compared to a mellers or even a k. multi.

One Question: Can breed and raise panthers at the exact same cost as a veileds or do they cost 150 bucks more per chameleon to raise to sell? Simple yes or no. :cool:
Veileds produce more eggs per clutch than panthers. ( 40 - 50 vs. 20 -30)
Panthers have higher mortality than Veileds.( up to 50% vs 10%)
Veileds are saleable much earlier than Panthers. ( 8 weeks vs 16 weeks)
Veileds are underpriced.

Conclusion: Panthers cost more to produce than Veileds.
 

jrh3

Established Member
but not a price of 5 to 1. I can sell 50 veileds at 40 each and total 2000, then sell 10 panthers at 200 each and get the same total. Ok 50 veileds will cost more to feed and house and all the other stuff you mentioned, right?
 

Kitro

New Member
Olimpia,

This isn't craigs list re-homing is a bs term used to skate rules. A used chameleon has been previously owned and the price should reflect that. "I'm gonna re-home my car that has 30,000 miles on it for the same cost as a new one" sounds pretty moronic to me.

Panthers can be sold at the same age as veiled. Breeders choose not to so they can Jack the price up. Even knowing that at 3 months their colors are not what they will look like as an adult. But hey they don't look brown anymore so now we can charge $250. Pretty dishonest if you ask me.
 

ChromaChameleons

New Member
but not a price of 5 to 1. I can sell 50 veileds at 40 each and total 2000, then sell 10 panthers at 200 each and get the same total. Ok 50 veileds will cost more to feed and house and all the other stuff you mentioned, right?
Veileds produce more eggs per clutch than panthers. ( 40 - 50 vs. 20 -30)
Panthers have higher mortality than Veileds.( up to 50% vs 10%)
Veileds are saleable much earlier than Panthers. ( 8 weeks vs 16 weeks)
Veileds are underpriced.

Conclusion: Panthers cost more to produce than Veileds.

Your 50 vs 10 doesn't account for clutch size, mortality and/or time to sale. We are arguing 2 entirely different issues.
 

Ace

Avid Member
Olimpia,

This isn't craigs list re-homing is a bs term used to skate rules. A used chameleon has been previously owned and the price should reflect that. "I'm gonna re-home my car that has 30,000 miles on it for the same cost as a new one" sounds pretty moronic to me.

Panthers can be sold at the same age as veiled. Breeders choose not to so they can Jack the price up. Even knowing that at 3 months their colors are not what they will look like as an adult. But hey they don't look brown anymore so now we can charge $250. Pretty dishonest if you ask me.
so you are comparing a nonliving object with a living creature?
and what defines being a "used" chameleon" a chameleon that has been bred?, or just was owned previously by another person?......as long as the chameleon is healthy i dont see the price should decrease, nor increase either. but kept at the common price range of that particular species of chameleon.

at OP- is it wrong to try to make a little money while also doing something you love? If i put all my hardwork, the best care i can give, with proper gutloading, supplemntation, appropriate size living cages, routine vet check ups, part time outside living/ and free range, and pay breeders that have done just that and asking between something-to whatever dollars(not outrageous but between the common price range) for my chameleons so wrong?

And i myself if i choose to breed and do just that, make me a bad person?

the beauty of it is, you can sell at whatever price you want, and so can others, how anoyone fairs off is a different story.

again i may not have experience in being a breeder, but as a customer and just my opino, i do think its "you get what you pay for", "reptutation", and "what people want/ attracted to"
 

skittles22

New Member
Cham owner.

I am new to the chameleon world. I had done about 2 years of research and reading on Panther chameleons, husbandry, care, diet, breeding, etc. After finally deciding to purchase i started checking out various breeders. I read various reviews, called with my newbie questions, and finally decided on a breeder that was right for me. A panther chameleon is an exotic animal and most of the time you get what you pay for. My first cham was purchased from Screameleons, and was an ambilobe from Bolts bloodline. Yes it was a bit more than other breeders but the superb colors, customer reviews, TIME and knowledge they invested in me as a customer was definatley worth it. My second Cham was a nosy be from the Kammers. Again i paid more than other breeders or local joes were charging but i had a hardon for a true blue and a reputable dealer with accurate bloodlines would give me the best shot at that. I spoke to various forum members and they convinced me to go with the Kammers over screameleons for the nosy be's and screameleons for most other chams if the extreme color is what you want. My next cham will be a Sambava and most likely picked up at the Jan or April NY reptile show from Screameleons.
 

ferretinmyshoes

Veterinarian
Staff member
Even knowing that at 3 months their colors are not what they will look like as an adult. But hey they don't look brown anymore so now we can charge $250. Pretty dishonest if you ask me.
Actually that seems more honest to me. If I go looking for a particular color scheme and get something totally different because it's just a little brown cham with no predictable potential then I wouldn't be pleased no matter what I paid because it's not what I wanted. If I'm looking for color then I'd prefer to wait a little longer and pay a little more to know I'm getting what I want.

People want color and they are willing to pay for it. The prices for panthers stay up because it continues to be profitable for those selling them. Why drop the prices when people readily buy them at inflated prices?
 

chamtrainer

Established Member
Even knowing that at 3 months their colors are not what they will look like as an adult. But hey they don't look brown anymore so now we can charge $250. Pretty dishonest if you ask me.
Lol their is nothing dishonest about it. Its not like they are forcing others to buy it. If other people are not only satisfied, but happy with their purchase then im pretty sure than isnt it worth the money? After all, the people buying the cham think its reasonable, so why isnt it? Im am positive they wouldnt support the prices by buying them if it wasnt reasonable.

Kinda like someone here on the forums says, "You get what you pay for" If you want a outsanding looking and very well taken care of animal its most likely not gonna be cheap.

Op- Panther chameleons should be priced at what they are being sold as. Dont forget the effort in producing a certain color out of the vast amounts in chameleons. Take your average true blue nosy be or your red body blue bar ambilobe. Out of several clutches, only very few turn out the colors you were waiting for and it usually take about 18-24 months before you can really tell. Then you need to go out and buy a few females and raise them up to breed,(so u dont inbreed) and after they are receptive and breeding size (a little after a year), which take a long time and a lot of extra care, you breed them and maybe 1 out of 5 wants to breed. Out of the 4 that breed maybe a couple clutches are go bad (their goes 6 months of your time). Then the out of the two remaining lets say 1 of them becomes eggbound (and dies) and the other produces 14- 25 eggs and lets say you get 20. After 3 months of incubation, about 5 or 6 of the eggs die, mold, or are infertile. That leaves you with about 14 which hatch out. Out of those 14 one or 2 are runts that dont make it. You hold back this clutch and there are 6 females and about 6 males you sell 3 females and continue to spend money on feeders in attempts to breed them. Once a little bit older, you sell a couple males and keep a couple. Lets say, one of those males turns out similar to the sire or grand sire. You have spent wayy more at this point than you have made. What if your male doesnt breed? What if the females dont grow as fast as they should? What if breeding your own feeders doesnt work? How are you going to pay for your lighting and water? How are you gonna strengthen your bloodlines with new blood similar to yours? What happens if they need attention by a vet? What if the males arent the colors you planned out to be? How are you gonna find the time to take care of these guys? Its a lot harder than it seems if you are breeding top quality stuff to try and produce a specific look considering how many things can go wrong. I am not saying that all these things will go wrong, but they can and i have talked to many people with similar problems as those listed above.
 
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