NEW C. gracilis x calyptratus hybrid

[okiroo]

The difference is that those do not serve any purpose

thats a diffrent way to look at a living, breathing animal. These will hopefully be loved and cared for by someone who see's chameleons as more than that; that will be their purpose. i mean no meaness to you in any way whatsoever though, im shure you didnt mean they dont have to right to live or anything like that. more than likely the way i took it

 

[fluxlizard]

Hows is the stress of these eggs any different from eggs sired by a male vield?

I wasn't indicating that they are stressed because they are hybrids. Or that they are necessarily stressed at all(although I tend to guess that they are because of the nature of the coloring/pattern- but hybrids are a whole new ballgame so maybe not- it is possible that whatever unique genetic combination that has occurred has put this pattern on regardless of stress level even though originally it was reserved for that purpose).

I'm merely stating that the color/pattern that some of you guys are so excited about is no different from any baby veiled that is stressed out/emotionally excited.

Every once in a while someone gets excited and posts pics of their veileds on the net that have this same color/pattern because they think they have something new and different. It is just stress coloration and nothing new.

It is unlikely to remain. But maybe I am wrong and hybridization for whatever reason has taken the stress pattern and made it the normal pattern for these. It will be very interesting to see what the adults look like- especially the males.

The difference is that those do not serve any purpose

And what purpose does the average pet serve anyway? These are no different from goldfish, hamsters, etc...

 

[Frankcham]

I have 3 new babies that have hatched today=).

I did not cross two Veiled Chameleons, and I did not get excited about the colors and post the pictures on here for that reason. I posted on here for the simple fact that I have been told this was the first of its kind that has ever been crossed and it seems to be proven, do to all the comments on here. If anyone has information that it has been done please let me know.

Thank you

 

[chameleoman]

are you going to sell them? and if so have you though of a price?
thanks

 

[Frankcham]

are you going to sell them? and if so have you though of a price?
thanks

I will be waiting until they grow a little bigger. I would like to see how everything goes with them first before I start to sell them.

 

[Kent67]

In case ya'll didn't know, hybridizing different species of other reptiles is quite common in the industry and in the case of pythons can be quite lucrative. Herpetoculuturists have produced over 45 different combinations of hybrid python species. Many, like carpondros, Wall pythons, and Carpall pythons sell in the $2000-3000 range.

 

[Sang]

blurry photos are blurry......


interesting to say the least.

 

[lumbasammler]

thats a diffrent way to look at a living, breathing animal. These will hopefully be loved and cared for by someone who see's chameleons as more than that; that will be their purpose. i mean no meaness to you in any way whatsoever though, im shure you didnt mean they dont have to right to live or anything like that. more than likely the way i took it

I don´t think anyone of us has the right to judge which animals have a right to live or not.
I just wanted to say that i personally would have seen more sense in having some baby veileds or gracefuls instead of those hybrids which will in best case be infertile.
I just hope nobody is trying to do that on purpose because of this thread.

 

[Sang]

as kent said about the carpet ball pythons there is also womaxball pythons aka wall pythons, tom sundhin who produced the first female ever sold the female for around 15k...

 

[birdman5000]

Don´t get me wrong, i think this is very interesting and cool in some way.
I just doubt that it´s worth putting a female under the stress of egg producing and laying
for this.

How is the stress from this clutch any more stressful than the stress of a clutch sired by the same species? Its not!

Those things are awesome. I call dibs on next clutch. I wonder if it was reversed and u put a male vield to a female graceful..... Would they look the same? Like crossing lions and tigers a tigon looks different from a liger. Depends on the species of the sire.

 

[birdman5000]

as kent said about the carpet ball pythons there is also womaxball pythons aka wall pythons, tom sundhin who produced the first female ever sold the female for around 15k...

balls also been crossed with angolans burms and retics. I havent read this entire thread so sorry if this has been mentioned already.

 

[Frankcham]

In case ya'll didn't know, hybridizing different species of other reptiles is quite common in the industry and in the case of pythons can be quite lucrative. Herpetoculuturists have produced over 45 different combinations of hybrid python species. Many, like carpondros, Wall pythons, and Carpall pythons sell in the $2000-3000 range.

So these chameleons can be worth that much?

 

[heartben]

The snakes were probably worth a lot more initially (pre hybrid) than the chams are, so it's unlikely the prices are going to be anywhere near that high - but I can't pretend to know how much these are worth... They are worth what people are willing to pay for them.

Also, someone mentioned and you confirmed that they were free ranging at the time of copulation but in the video they appear to be in a cage?

That being said, I think this is really cool.

 

[fluxlizard]

I just wanted to say that i personally would have seen more sense in having some baby veileds or gracefuls instead of those hybrids which will in best case be infertile.

Not necessarily.
Hybrids in snakes are sometimes fertile. And sometimes hybrids tell us something about the relationship between species. Sometimes you can learn a little more about genetic relationship between species by crossing. This has been done with some color traits in different species of colubrids that I have read about. I'm not a snake person so I don't remember the exact details. It's been done a little bit in lizards as well- tegus for example...

 

[eisentrauti]

That's exactly the direction I thought it would end. Does a cross bring more money than a pure one. I'll bet many people plan now to try crosses too. Poor hobby ...

 

[fluxlizard]

How is the stress from this clutch any more stressful than the stress of a clutch sired by the same species? Its not!

That is not what I am saying. See my comments above.

I will just add this- every once in a while some noob posts pics of their veiled hatchlings showing stressed coloration on the net all excited because they think they have a new coloration. A few other noobs join in the excitement. Then someone like me points out it is just stress coloration and something may be wrong. And then babies start showing more serious symptoms of stress like won't open eyes, failing to thrive, etc.

Anyone who has hatched veileds and seen one get upset when about to be touched by another or by the breeder can see this coloration/pattern.

The color/pattern these are showing is not unique or new.
Baby dilepis, which are pretty near relation to gracilis, do it also- it isn't even unique to veileds. I don't remember if gracilis does it or not.

And I'll also restate once again, that I am not passing judgement on whether these particular babies are in fact stressed. Maybe they are, maybe not. It is possible that this stress coloration is just going to be normal coloration in the case of these hybrids and not an indicator of stress at all. I am surprised if that ends up being the case and they keep it, but it is possible and I'm not passing judgement on whether they are stressed or not, and lastly-

I certainly DO NOT believe that just because they are hybrids they are stressed. If they are in fact stressed there are other reasons...

Now random individuals who are putting words in my mouth please stop and move along.

 

[eisentrauti]

That is not what I am saying. See my comments above.

I will just add this- every once in a while some noob posts pics of their veiled hatchlings showing stressed coloration on the net all excited because they think they have a new coloration. A few other noobs join in the excitement. Then someone like me points out it is just stress coloration and something may be wrong. And then babies start showing more serious symptoms of stress like won't open eyes, failing to thrive, etc.

Anyone who has hatched veileds and seen one get upset when about to be touched by another or by the breeder can see this coloration/pattern.

The color/pattern these are showing is not unique or new.
Baby dilepis, which are pretty near relation to gracilis, do it also- it isn't even unique to veileds. I don't remember if gracilis does it or not.

And I'll also restate once again, that I am not passing judgement on whether these particular babies are in fact stressed. Maybe they are, maybe not. It is possible that this stress coloration is just going to be normal coloration in the case of these hybrids and not an indicator of stress at all. I am surprised if that ends up being the case and they keep it, but it is possible and I'm not passing judgement on whether they are stressed or not, and lastly-

I certainly DO NOT believe that just because they are hybrids they are stressed. If they are in fact stressed there are other reasons...

Now random individuals who are putting words in my mouth please stop and move along.

well said

@all: maybe some guys should read Chris' posts in the pardalisxlateralis thread.

What's very sad for our hobby: If those would be "just" gracilis juveniles or if there would be a thread "just" about a gracilis thread I bet that there wont be not anywhere near as many posts and or people who are interested in the juveniles. Why ? Because gracilis is a 10$ to import species. It's really sad that "we dont know so far if they are real crosses" animals produce so much more attention than a normal clutch of one those species which are cheap-to-import would did.

 

[Ferdy Timmerman]

@ Frankcham: If you are going to sell them eventually and are trying to determine a price, how about you charge half the price for a calyptratus + half the price for a gracilis. I think that would be realistic
I do find it interesting to read and see that these species hybridize, but I don't encourage people to do so. I know in this case the mating was an accident, but in general I think all breeding efforts should aim to contribute towards a pure captive population with a genetic diversity as high as possible.

 

[fluxlizard]

What's very sad for our hobby: If those would be "just" gracilis juveniles or if there would be a thread "just" about a gracilis thread I bet that there wont be not anywhere near as many posts and or people who are interested in the juveniles. Why ? Because gracilis is a 10$ to import species. It's really sad that "we dont know so far if they are real crosses" animals produce so much more attention than a normal clutch of one those species which are cheap-to-import would did.

That is true- I've bred dilepis a few times and had a hard time even finding buyers. They are neat lizards- the only reason for the difficulty- they are cheap and are not veileds. Doesn't make them less interesting to keep.

So these chameleons can be worth that much?

Commercially? no way. lizards are never worth much compared to snakes. You can go buy some fancy ball pythons for $5000 to $70,000. Try finding any lizard any where at that price- you will have a hard time. Lizards going for even $1000 or more you can count on your fingers. Snakes going for that price are quite a bit more common...

If these are interesting looking and prove to be fertile- I'd guess a few hundred if the guy is a good salesman. If either case is not true then I'd say much less... Even if they are fertile, the price is likely to crash pretty quickly because both species are fairly prolific and because it will be cheap to create the same cross. A male veiled will try to breed with anything- all someone has to do is get a male veiled and female gracilis both of which are inexpensive and put them together regularly to succeed. The only difficulty involved here was the discovery of the combination that produced the hybrids, and that combination is now known to all of us with the first post of this thread...

It is still interesting. But no, the breeder isn't about to become a millionaire or something...

 

[eisentrauti]

The real problem is that now many many people will try such crosses. Especially if they can sell the offspring just for 10$ than veileds sell for...