Namaqua Chameleon: Japan

this thread is full of reasons why i dont post anymore,

seeing these for sale brings back the F. Labordi post when that guy got two poss gravid females as a "gift"

also:
[loosely recalled]
this species will never sustainable in captivity ( regarding C. Melleri )

who am i?

and lastly raise your hand if you just googled this Sp. before posting, lol
 
reyesjoshuacruz said:
this thread is full of reasons why i dont post anymore,

seeing these for sale brings back the F. Labordi post when that guy got two poss gravid females as a "gift"

also:
[loosely recalled]
this species will never sustainable in captivity ( regarding C. Melleri )

who am i?

and lastly raise your hand if you just googled this Sp. before posting, lol
Click to expand...

preach on brotha. again just like mr. anderson, pssh taking my words out of contects. never said it was ok, its already being done so we cant stop it. and just like your sig says. :rolleyes:
 
I'm not sure what you mean. I just wrote that because your post said you didn't think it was wrong.

If everyone just said oh well, we can't stop it then nothing would ever be stopped.
 
How I hate those hypocritical discussions about right or wrong. Fact is that the whole CITES paper idea works just as good as it's taken for serious in the participating countries. Fact is that many countries, eg Ukraine, South Africa, Tanzania, many Asian ones (Thailand!!!) are very very generous in giving permits away if you are generous to the officials who deal with your case.
Or lets say it this way: As long as this system is corrupt from the beginning to the end I have no reason to give it the supremacy about was is right and what is wrong.
Or can anybody tell me why the quota for one of the rarest chameleons, Kinyongia fischeri is 100 times higher than the one for Rhampholeon spinosus ?
That in complete Tanzania just one guy controlls all "Farmraised" animals ?
That Bradypodion transvaalense adults can be exported with no problems, even if they are obviously WC ?
That a person/company in Thailand offers regular "CB" parsoniis in the US ?
That from difficult to care for Gecko genus Uroplatus 1000s of animals are exported every year ?
That there isn't a single real existing farm in Kenya but all hoehneliis and jacksonii ssp. are "farmbreed" ?
That nearly all Aussie/Newzealand geckos which were available in captivity are based on smuggled animals and NOBODY cares ?

So that is the system we should trust. A system which isnt based on the income of a few officials, a system which is controlled by a few bureaucrats who have a complete background in the topics they decide, a system which is completely orientated on the wellfare of the animals - not
 
Vampire state! (or maybe I mean Kleptocracy? Perhaps I'm not even using the correct terms?) IMO they have other bigger problems to worry about first.
 
eisentrauti said:
How I hate those hypocritical discussions about right or wrong. Fact is that the whole CITES paper idea works just as good as it's taken for serious in the participating countries. Fact is that many countries, eg Ukraine, South Africa, Tanzania, many Asian ones (Thailand!!!) are very very generous in giving permits away if you are generous to the officials who deal with your case.
Or lets say it this way: As long as this system is corrupt from the beginning to the end I have no reason to give it the supremacy about was is right and what is wrong.
Or can anybody tell me why the quota for one of the rarest chameleons, Kinyongia fischeri is 100 times higher than the one for Rhampholeon spinosus ?
That in complete Tanzania just one guy controlls all "Farmraised" animals ?
That Bradypodion transvaalense adults can be exported with no problems, even if they are obviously WC ?
That a person/company in Thailand offers regular "CB" parsoniis in the US ?
That from difficult to care for Gecko genus Uroplatus 1000s of animals are exported every year ?
That there isn't a single real existing farm in Kenya but all hoehneliis and jacksonii ssp. are "farmbreed" ?
That nearly all Aussie/Newzealand geckos which were available in captivity are based on smuggled animals and NOBODY cares ?

So that is the system we should trust. A system which isnt based on the income of a few officials, a system which is controlled by a few bureaucrats who have a complete background in the topics they decide, a system which is completely orientated on the wellfare of the animals - not
Click to expand...

I know that this discussion is a bit old but I'm writing my thesis on this topic (wildlife trade) and I'm suggesting to create a certification scheme for WC animals that guarantees sustainability and traceability of wild caught specimens, like the rainforest alliance or fairtrade for coffee or Marine Aquatium Council for ornamental fish , what would you think of that?

P.s: I'm going to post a questionnaire about that in the next months so stay tuned :)
 
italian chameleon said:
I know that this discussion is a bit old but I'm writing my thesis on this topic (wildlife trade) and I'm suggesting to create a certification scheme for WC animals that guarantees sustainability and traceability of wild caught specimens, like the rainforest alliance or fairtrade for coffee or Marine Aquatium Council for ornamental fish , what would you think of that?

P.s: I'm going to post a questionnaire about that in the next months so stay tuned :)
Click to expand...

My suggestion are small quotas for nearly all species, and if the specimen are really farmbreed, easier ways to ship them. Complete bans dont help much, smuggling under bad conditions becomes bigger and bans of single selected species doesnt help their habitats.
The certification you think about is my opinion not an option. Something like this would need many more public employees in this sector and we all now that even the "first world" countries wont spend more money here.

As an example: The authorities in Madagascar gives a permit to keep several Calumma/Furcifer/Uroplatus species to some guys who really have the knowledge, eg zoos/universities etc ... Those organisations or in some cases private persons can take a low number of animals out of the wild and breed them. Those CB animals can be sold at the worldwide reptile market. The prices for such animals will be still high and its a good way to support organisations which help the environment in the exporting states.
I know that with this system at least in some cases WC animals will be shipped as CB breed ones, but the market has shown that people pay more if they are sure that they have CB quality (Varanus macraei, prasinus etc are good examples here).
 
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eisentrauti said:
the market has shown that people pay more if they are sure that they have CB quality (Varanus macraei, prasinus etc are good examples here).
Click to expand...

that's my point! they could charge higher prices for sustainably harvested animals and that money can repay people working in the industry, check out the marine aquarium council, they're doing a good job in saving the reef in the philippines.

I think something like that should be applied to herps, it could be a solution!

we're all seing the results of restrictive CITES laws.... it's like prohibitionism...more restrictions means more smuggling and more animals taken from the wild to die in some kids' exo terra !

instead of that you could get certified quality animals, obviously for a higher price, but you'd know that the money you're spending is re invested in conservation projects (reintroductions of CBs are much easier and cost-efficient with reptiles than with mammals) and guarantees quality of your animal (e.g: humane shipping, not in some guy's underwear :) )

you see what I mean?
 
italian chameleon said:
that's my point! they could charge higher prices for sustainably harvested animals and that money can repay people working in the industry, check out the marine aquarium council, they're doing a good job in saving the reef in the philippines.

I think something like that should be applied to herps, it could be a solution!

we're all seing the results of restrictive CITES laws.... it's like prohibitionism...more restrictions means more smuggling and more animals taken from the wild to die in some kids' exo terra !

instead of that you could get certified quality animals, obviously for a higher price, but you'd know that the money you're spending is re invested in conservation projects (reintroductions of CBs are much easier and cost-efficient with reptiles than with mammals) and guarantees quality of your animal (e.g: humane shipping, not in some guy's underwear :) )

you see what I mean?
Click to expand...

I concur with you and Benny something of this sort could be done with reptiles and chameleons in particular. It is important to have some animals available as it creates a link to forest in Madagascar to people in different parts of the world. The people end up giving a dam about these conservation issues when normally they would not.
 
Motherlode Chameleon said:
The people end up giving a dam about these conservation issues when normally they would not.
Click to expand...

yeah cos basically THEY are paying for it! and people always want to know where their money goes! I think this idea it has a good potential theorically, but it will be hard to put into practice, especially in this economy.....anyway I'll be posting a questionnaire about that in the next few weeks and I'd love to have feedback from you guys! ;)
 
italian chameleon said:
yeah cos basically THEY are paying for it! and people always want to know where their money goes! I think this idea it has a good potential theorically, but it will be hard to put into practice, especially in this economy.....anyway I'll be posting a questionnaire about that in the next few weeks and I'd love to have feedback from you guys! ;)
Click to expand...

I think it is more than just because they are paying for it. It is also because some people become passionate about these animals and as well some people want even in small numbers to see some of these species available occasionally.

Paying for it does apply too.
 
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Personally I dont have moral problems with smuggling especially in cases where animals are banned while on the same time global companies destroy their habitats. The problem I have with smuggling are the low survival rates of animals exported that way.
Again an example from the real life: The genus Uroplatus includes in general only species which are for advanced keepers and not for beginners. A comittee of the EU forbid the import of those geckos, but Madagascar allows quotas for them. So nearly all Uroplatus end in the USA on too low prices. Those low prices destroy in some cases the prices for CB animals and those low prices often bring those animals in hands of people who are just too unexperienced or lets say it more directly: Too dumb. Everytime a WC animal is offered for prices under 100/200$ the chance is very high that it ends this way. It's the same thing everywhere in the USA and the EU and I bet in Asia too.

Because of the ban in the EU, smuggling to the EU has increased massively. Most of the Uroplatus specimen here are direct WC or they are juveniles of WC animals with unclear history. Because of the ban of the EU, the competition of the importeurs to get Uroplatus is very small. In fact, just some countries can import them. If it would be legal to import them here, the prices in Madagascar would raise enormously. From now between 20-40$ per specimen up to 60-100$. This way the WC animals will be still available nearly everywhere but to a price which is high enough to stop people buying those geckos for "fun" and low enough to give every serious keeper the chance to work with them.
 
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