How much antibiotics are too much?

skyedog

Established Member
Let me start with the general information...

Cage type - 260 gallon reptarium

Lighting - On top - Exo Terra 150 watt sun glo light, reptisun 5.0 uvb light. Halfway down the reptarium there's another 100 watt exo terra sun glow. At night I try not to use heat lights as the ambient temp stays in the high 60s. I have the lights on a 12hr timed schedule.

Temperature - The general cage temp is 76-80 measured with a digital thermometer with a probe. The basking area is about 86 degrees. On occasion the bottom of the cage drops into the upper 60's during the day.

Humidity - Varies - average about 60% sometimes higher.

Plants - hanging pothos and a 5 foot palm - also 2 6ft vines that extend down the length of the cage in the back.

Cage is in my room upstairs. Little or no animal or human traffic except for me.

The chameleon is a Mellers - unknown sex and age. Had him several weeks now. Hes 13 inches long and 91g, which is up from 80 when I got him.

He's handled only for inspection and weighing.

Supplement is zoo med repticalcium with d3 1 or 2 times a week dusted on crickets.

I mist for about 15 - 20 minutes in the morning and evening with a pump sprayer like you see in garden center - not a spray bottle, and I have a dripper on the pothos slowly dripping all day. I'm going to install an automatic mister this weekend to replace a habba mist which I dont care for very much.

There's no fecal description... that's part of my question.


Had him to the vet a while ago. The vet is a very experienced one here in NJ. The cham was hanging is leg and not using it much. I got it to the vet and he said it was a kidney disease and put it on baytril .4ml two times a day. He did blood work and when that came back he said there was a liver problem and he had me put the cham on metronidazole benzoate .2ml every other day and lactulose .2ml 2 or 3 times a day. Plus to put weight on it since it wasn't eating he has me feeding it a mash of peach baby food, hi protien ensure, half a centrum and a banana 1-3cc twice a day. Is this a bit too harsh of a medication regimen a chameleon? To me it seems like a lot of meds to put into a cham every day but I'm sure I'm wrong. Will it eventually develop a resistance to the meds? He wants the cham on these meds for 2-3 weeks at least. The cham is using hig leg but still wont eat. When he did go to the bathroom it looked very runny like the color of the mash I'm feeding it. I tried calling him to see if I should stop the meds but hes on vacation now through next week. I just don't want to cause any damage to the cham by overmedicating.
I'm very sorry this is such a long post but I wanted to give as much info as possible.
 
...Halfway down the reptarium there's another 100 watt exo terra sun glow...

...The chameleon is a Mellers - unknown sex and age. Had him several weeks now. Hes 13 inches long and 91g, which is up from 80 when I got him....

Supplement is zoo med repticalcium with d3 1 or 2 times a week dusted on crickets.

I mist for about 15 - 20 minutes in the morning...

...said it was a kidney disease and put it on baytril .4ml two times a day.

...liver problem and he had me put the cham on metronidazole benzoate .2ml every other day

...lactulose .2ml 2 or 3 times a day.

...hi protien ensure...

...He wants the cham on these meds for 2-3 weeks at least....
Howdy,

For chameleons, it is not uncommon to have an antibiotic treatment continue for 20-30 days. That being said, I would ask your vet for his thoughts regarding issues with Baytril and kidneys since he was already concerned about existing kidney troubles. Baytril is often mentioned as "hard on kidneys".

Acute and Chronic Renal Disease: Diagnosis, Treatment, and Prognosis in Lizards: http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=17+1796&aid=3317

I'm not sure of the relation of the liver and metronidazole benzoate. That drug is commonly used to treat certain parasites and anaerobic bacteria. So maybe it is for a suspected bacteria issue but he may also suspect flagellates.

Lactulose is basically a laxative but has some use in treating some issues with liver disease.

High protein Ensure seems contrary to what an animal with a kidney problems needs since the kidneys have to deal with getting rid of the byproducts of protein digestion :eek:.

P.S. I'm not a big fan of lighting pointed into the side of enclosures :eek:. I do like having all lighting; for heat or otherwise, coming from the top, aimed downward.

Do you see him drink?

Photos please :). Lots of shots of the enclosure and your chameleon may be helpful.
 
I tried asking the vet about the baytril issue a few days ago but he said that's what he wants it on so I didn't question him at the time. The vet also tried telling me the cham is a "stunted 3 or 4 yr old adult" and that it's basking site should be 105 - 110 degrees.

I took some pictures this morning so as soon as I can figure out how to resize pictures I'll have some pics posted of the cham and it's enclosure. Thanks for the help.
 
My guess is he's about a year old, give or take a few months. Probably not stunted.

Melleri should never be anywhere near 105-110 degrees. The lame leg might be an infection in the leg itself, or an injury - it's hard to tell. My CB male melleri has a similar problem - his foot swelled, and he's not used his leg much. It does not look like an infection, but has gradually gone down over the past month or so. It's getting better on its own. I think he injured it somehow.

Melleri often don not do well on antibiotics. Sometimes, it is needed. However, due to their sensitivity, it is best to only give them a general antibiotic when an infection is certain, and even more prudently, when it's gone systemic. For a local infection, a local (injectable) antibiotic is preferable.
 
...as soon as I can figure out how to resize pictures...
Howdy,

So as to have a more complete story of the treatment regiment, post the strength of the drugs being prescribed. It'll be listed as something like 20mg/ml etc. Without that info, we really can't be sure of how much meds are being prescribed. It's worth a call to the vet's office to find out, even if it's only for your own record keeping :eek:.

To resize photos for those who don't have their own software, [B]www.photobucket.com[/B] has that capability built-in. They are also good for storing and linking photos into this site.
 
Ok, I'm still downloading the pictures, but I do have the strength of the meds...

Baytril is 1.13mg/ml - 0.4ml orally 2 times a day

Metronidazole Benzoate is 20mg/ml - 0.2ml orally every other day

The Lactulose did not have the strength on it. I'll place a call to the vet but the vet is out through next week on vacation.

Also, I forgot to say before that the mellers is drinking each time I water it. It drinks quite a bit, but it eventually lets me know it's done by turning away and moving to another vine.
 
"Had him to the vet a while ago. The vet is a very experienced one here in NJ. The cham was hanging is leg and not using it much. I got it to the vet and he said it was a kidney disease and put it on baytril .4ml two times a day. "


i just wondered, is it only is one leg? have you noticed at all that it is in the other limbs?? this is how jack started out, just dangling his back right leg. even on meds, it spread to the other limbs. jack's diagnosis is not kidney problems yet, but its not ruled out either........ but just keep a close eye on the other limbs............what were the other reasons for them thinking kidney problems? what did the bloodwork tell you, did the vet let you know this info?
 
I hope I did this right :)

View attachment 11034

This is Sidney while basking. The color is a bit washed out in the pic.

View attachment 11035

Here is the unhappy Sidney in my hand just after being weighed this morning. The brown spot by his mouth is some of the food I had just fed him that I had to wipe off for him.

View attachment 11036
This is the top half of Sid's enclosure. The uvb 5.0 is on top (he's under it in the pic). The basking light is a few inches above the top suspended from the ceiling by a hook/chain.
 
Sorry I'm so slow answering the questions...I was trying to get the pics uploaded.

Syn - When he was inspecting Sidney he said the swelling in the leg joint led him to believe there was a kidney problem and he thought possible gout. He said since Sid was attempting to move and use the leg that there probably was no injury. I wanted x-rays taken but he said it wasn't really necessary because from his experience he knew what it was.

Eric - I had a hard time believing Sid is a stunted adult. When the vet said to keep the basking spot that high I pretty much knew not to do that so I didn't raise the temp.

Jack - It was only the one leg. It never spread to any other limbs. Sid now uses the leg that was hanging. I just don't know if it got better from the Baytril or if it was in injury that healed itself.
 
I got it to the vet and he said it was a kidney disease and put it on baytril.
Hi skyedog,

First, I'm not a vet, so maybe someone else might comment my answer here:
Kidney disease is often a result of medicine, chemics, too much fat or proteine and too less water. (and many other things of course)
Did you ask the vet why he gives Baytril? Baytril is an antibiotics, so did the vet test if there is a bacterial infection, and if so, if this is the reason for the kidney disease?

He did blood work and when that came back he said there was a liver problem
this might be a result of the kidney disease, but also of parasites etc.
he has me feeding it a mash of peach baby food, hi protien ensure,
sick Chameleons often loose weight. This is quite normal. To give the chameleon high protein might not be the best idea if it has weak kidney and liver. In any case, put calcium to the protein-food. Watch Ca/Ph proportion.
Also I doubt that it gains weight because of this diet. The chameleon first needs to feel better, then it will start eating again. It might stay "skinny" for a long time or for ever. All chams with kidney problems I know kept their low weight, just put only a few gramm, but stayed skinny until the end of their lifetime.

Will it eventually develop a resistance to the meds? He wants the cham on these meds for 2-3 weeks at least.
The problem with antibiotics is, that if you stop it too early, the surviving bacterias get resistant. You always need to give antibiotics for a specific time, even if the patient feels better. But again: does the vet know that there are any bacterias causing the kidney and liver problems?
Antibiotics also destroy the gut flora for the time you use it. So appetite and digest might be a problem at the moment.
 
I didn't see any swelling in those pics - can you take a pic of the bad leg? Also, check his toes really well. Sometimes a damaged toenail can lead to an infection int he foot and bone.

Where in NJ? I used to live in NJ. Went to a vet in Clifton (I think) Dr. Cataldi.

He looks like a reasonably healthy, if not stressed, subadult melleri.

They love their water - make sure he drinks a lot.
 
I'll try to get a closeup of the leg tonight and post it. I have noticed Sid likes the misting and watering a lot. The stressed look started when I had to administer the meds. Up until that point he didn't really care if I was in the enclosure cleaning or feeding/watering. Now Sid knows if I'm in the area, the meds may be coming too :)
 
...Baytril is 1.13mg/ml - 0.4ml orally 2 times a day

Metronidazole Benzoate is 20mg/ml - 0.2ml orally every other day...
Howdy,

Those dosages are within reason.

The Baytril dose is on the low end (5-10mg/kg) and so is the Metronidazole Benzoate (Flagyl) (20-50mg/kg) so short-term overdosing shouldn't be a problem.
 
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