Foggers, a Tool or a Danger?

[PetNcs]

So I don’t disagree that fogging helps hydrate. I just want to know how. Is it condensation in the upper airway that is swallowed? Is water somehow absorbed through tissue in the lungs? Is it absorbed through some permeable membrane in the skin? Curious, I despise the idea of blind faith, and want to know the mechanism. I mean, if turtles can breath underwater through their butts, why can’t a chameleon hydrate through their lungs?

Noone knows rhe exact mechanism
As no-one ever has studied it in detail yet
You can require whatever you want but reality is the real scientific projects do not care for chameleons that much...

 

[cyberlocc]

Noone knows rhe exact mechanism
As no-one ever has studied it in detail yet
You can require whatever you want but reality is the real scientific projects do not care for chameleons that much...

Sad but true .

You can give us your insight though?

Taylor spoke about the condensation, the water built up on the nostral and was then drank, mouth opened, allowed water in and swallowed, If I understood his post correctly.

Is that what you have witnessed as well? Or do you think the water from the air is in fact permeating the lungs?

 

[PetNcs]

Could we see some images of your setups and these chams?

 

[PetNcs]

The animals ate in superb condition, shed perfectly and reproduce...
I guess this is the first time when you see pics like this or am I mistaken?

 

[PetNcs]

Sad but true .

You can give us your insight though?

Taylor spoke about the condensation, the water built up on the nostral and was then drank, mouth opened, allowed water in and swallowed, If I understood his post correctly.

Is that what you have witnessed as well? Or do you think the water from the air is in fact permeating the lungs?

i can say that i am convinced absolutely that:
fog-drinking is dominant hydration method in chameleons
I have wild as well as captive evidence for it
There are very likeky two mechanism how they resorb the water: one is very likely nebulization in respiratory tract, one is swallowing the condensate
About mechanisms I can not argue, noone ever has studied it and requirements to deliver scientifical proofs are funny when preliminary results of not yet published research are shared and challenged by theoretizers

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

So my next question would be why does it have to happen at night? If temperatures are kept appropriate during the day then there shouldn’t be a risk of respiratory infections. So if humidity is kept high during the day wouldn’t that accomplish the same thing? Humidity should be ensuring hydration regardless of when it happens.

This is not a challenge, this is a genuine quest for understanding.

 

[nightanole]

So my next question would be why does it have to happen at night? If temperatures are kept appropriate during the day then there shouldn’t be a risk of respiratory infections. So if humidity is kept high during the day wouldn’t that accomplish the same thing? Humidity should be ensuring hydration regardless of when it happens.

This is not a challenge, this is a genuine quest for understanding.

Im going to go with there need to be a changing temperature. This is why the fogging recommendation is also mixed with the 18c night time temps at the same time. If cham,air, and fog are all the same temps, no change in moisture will occur. The cham will not dehydrate, the air will not increase in humidity, and the fog will not dissipate. But what if you have a constantly dropping temperature? This will cause warm bodies to release "fog" which also raises humidity. And during the morning dew stage, you have a cham that is colder than the air, breathing in a lot of condensation. You have warm humid air going into a cold chameleon, and condensing. I think is the time the chameleon is "hydrating". I dont think the chameleon is hydrating when its warmer than the air, i think its doing it when its colder than the air.


But that is assuming they are hydrating through the lungs or if they are hydrating through the sinuses/throat before it reaches the lungs. Kinda like humans warm and moisten air with the nose before it reaches the lungs, and also rehydrates the sinuses when they breath out.

 

[cyberlocc]

Im going to go with there need to be a changing temperature. This is why the fogging recommendation is also mixed with the 18c night time temps at the same time. If cham,air, and fog are all the same temps, no change in moisture will occur. The cham will not dehydrate, the air will not increase in humidity, and the fog will not dissipate. But what if you have a constantly dropping temperature? This will cause warm bodies to release "fog" which also raises humidity. And during the morning dew stage, you have a cham that is colder than the air, breathing in a lot of condensation. You have warm humid air going into a cold chameleon, and condensing. I think is the time the chameleon is "hydrating". I dont think the chameleon is hydrating when its warmer than the air, i think its doing it when its colder than the air.


But that is assuming they are hydrating through the lungs or if they are hydrating through the sinuses/throat before it reaches the lungs. Kinda like humans warm and moisten air with the nose before it reaches the lungs, and also rehydrates the sinuses when they breath out.

Let me see if I have this right. What you are trying to say is?

Fogging/High Humidity at Night, Stops water loss, but does not Hydrate. (Cold Cham, Cold Air)

Fogging/High Humidity in the Morning, Hydrates. (Cold Cham, Hot Air)

High Humidity during the day, Stops water loss, does not Hydrate. (Hot Cham, Hot Air)


Is that what your saying?

Also I really do not understand what magic happens at 65f (18c), why fogging works at that temp and not others.

This is taken from the Heat + Humidity Thread, can someone show me the 18c?

Spoiler: Ambilobe Weather

Now we do see some difference, and close to 18c in Andasibe, but we do not see Dew Point meet temperature at all in the next 24 hours, so no fog today in Andasibe.

Spoiler: Andasibe Weather

 

[Rlc1994]

So my next question would be why does it have to happen at night? If temperatures are kept appropriate during the day then there shouldn’t be a risk of respiratory infections. So if humidity is kept high during the day wouldn’t that accomplish the same thing? Humidity should be ensuring hydration regardless of when it happens.

This is not a challenge, this is a genuine quest for understanding.

Im really interested in other people’s thoughts as well so hopefully others will chime in. The most common thing we hear about daytime fogging heat+stagnant air+humid air causes RI. The thing is I really don’t think we’ve had enough time with the new wave of mainstream fogging to really get an understanding if this is really true or not. Just needs more time and research I think before any conclusions should be made.

 

[Rlc1994]

Im going to go with there need to be a changing temperature. This is why the fogging recommendation is also mixed with the 18c night time temps at the same time. If cham,air, and fog are all the same temps, no change in moisture will occur. The cham will not dehydrate, the air will not increase in humidity, and the fog will not dissipate. But what if you have a constantly dropping temperature? This will cause warm bodies to release "fog" which also raises humidity. And during the morning dew stage, you have a cham that is colder than the air, breathing in a lot of condensation. You have warm humid air going into a cold chameleon, and condensing. I think is the time the chameleon is "hydrating". I dont think the chameleon is hydrating when its warmer than the air, i think its doing it when its colder than the air.


But that is assuming they are hydrating through the lungs or if they are hydrating through the sinuses/throat before it reaches the lungs. Kinda like humans warm and moisten air with the nose before it reaches the lungs, and also rehydrates the sinuses when they breath out.

Interesting theory I like it haha

 

[nightanole]

Let me see if I have this right. What you are trying to say is?

Fogging/High Humidity at Night, Stops water loss, but does not Hydrate. (Cold Cham, Cold Air)

Fogging/High Humidity in the Morning, Hydrates. (Cold Cham, Hot Air)

High Humidity during the day, Stops water loss, does not Hydrate. (Hot Cham, Hot Air)


Is that what your saying?

Also I really do not understand what magic happens at 65f (18c), why fogging works at that temp and not others.

This is taken from the Heat + Humidity Thread, can someone show me the 18c?

Pretty sure we need to start getting scientificy about Dry Bulb, Wet Bulb and Dew Point Temperatures

 

[cyberlocc]

Pretty sure we need to start getting scientificy about Dry Bulb, Wet Bulb and Dew Point Temperatures

Was already doing that, I edited lololol.

Fog requires 100% humidity doesn't it? Is not fog created when the Dewpoint and the Temperature the same? IE 100% RH.

 

[Rst_Cham]

Well the "slime" isnt always visible, and there is likely many factors to it, as you said. The slime I experienced, was not colored, or apparent, it was like a slimy substance on the surface. You have to stick your fingers in the pipe, and feel inside of their.

The protein slime that Nightanole saw, seems to be something that is visual, at least like he said on black rubbery surfaces, may be the same stuff, however I didn't "see" the slime on my white PVC piping.

I too only use RO water, and am very very picky about my water. As I said, I removed the misting reservoir completely due to concerns of bacteria in there as well . Plus not having to fill it anymore is a plus. My MK, pulls directly from a 5 Stage ROs holding tank. I live in northern AZ, near your borders, at about the same Altitude, I am 7000ft (If your in Denver, I am actually 1600ft higher). So our Water is very clean without ROing it as well, I still RO it.

I am in Denver. I do see my cham drinking off his leaves in the morning once his misters come on (because I am unable to get nighttime humidity up without blasting the fogger on high). I always thought this was fine but after reading this thread, is this method of hydrating (him linking water from his leaves) actually a bad thing? Why?
thanks

 

[nightanole]

Was already doing that, I edited lololol.

Fog requires 100% humidity doesn't it? Is not fog created when the Dewpoint and the Temperature the same? IE 100% RH.

The way i was taught. Dew point is the temperature when water vapor condenses on an object, and this temperature is more or less fixed, unless humidity changes.

SO pretend the air is 90f, and the dew point is 80f (very high humidity) and you made a mistake and put your coke bottle in the free range and your chameleon back in the frig. Now after 10-15min of arguing on the internet if the new sonic movie deserves a higher opening weekend gross vs birds of prey, you realize your mistake. You now rush over and grab your now 70f chameleon. Now since the chameleon is below the dew point, any air that passes over it (or through it) will have the water vapor condensed, just like a sweating coke bottle.

So the whole fogging at night thing, may be just to raise the dew point above the chameleons body temperature.

So at 100% humidity, you are right, air temp = dew point = fog.

In the morning when all the objects are cold, and the air temp is rising, dew is forming on the objects/chameleon. if the humidity is also rising.

Or in the not so efficient way. If you raise humidity (fog) you raise the dew point, and with some practice, have a window of a few hours were the cham is still below the dew point.

 

[Kristen Wilkins]

Was already doing that, I edited lololol.

Fog requires 100% humidity doesn't it? Is not fog created when the Dewpoint and the Temperature the same? IE 100% RH.

Was already doing that, I edited lololol.

Fog requires 100% humidity doesn't it? Is not fog created when the Dewpoint and the Temperature the same? IE 100% RH.

less then 2.5 .

 

[cyberlocc]

I am in Denver. I do see my cham drinking off his leaves in the morning once his misters come on (because I am unable to get nighttime humidity up without blasting the fogger on high). I always thought this was fine but after reading this thread, is this method of hydrating (him linking water from his leaves) actually a bad thing? Why?
thanks

I think you quoted the wrong post .

Nothing wrong with drinking from leaves in the morning, thats likely pretty natural.

We were stating we noticed they dont do that, when humidity is kept higher at night, they still in my experience lick off leaves and shoot water off them. Just not in the mornings.

The way i was taught. Dew point is the temperature when water vapor condenses on an object, and this temperature is more or less fixed, unless humidity changes.

Dewpoint Temperature, Is fixed in an Equation, Temperature, Dew Point, and Humidity, are all synced, If the temperature stays the same, and the humidity changes, so does the dew point. If the Temperature stays the same, and the humidity rises, so does the Dew Point. However, ya the goal in your field is to maintain Dew Point, so that Temperature and Humidity fall in line.

SO pretend the air is 90f, and the dew point is 80f (75%) and you made a mistake and put your coke bottle in the free range and your chameleon back in the frig. Now after 10-15min of arguing on the internet if the new sonic movie deserves a higher opening weekend gross vs birds of prey, you realize your mistake. You now rush over and grab your now 70f chameleon. Now since the chameleon is below the dew point, any air that passes over it (or through it) will have the water vapor condensed, just like a sweating coke bottle.

So the whole fogging at night thing, may be just to raise the dew point above the chameleons body temperature.

So at 100% humidity, you are right, air temp = dew point = fog.

In the morning when all the objects are cold, and the air temp is rising, dew is forming on the objects/chameleon. if the humidity is also rising.

Or in the not so efficient way. If you raise humidity (fog) you raise the dew point, and with some practice, have a window of a few hours were the cham is still below the dew point.

75% is the answer, in case you were curious .

Ya, I got what you meant, I was just wording it easier to understand for others to read, and making sure, that was how you meant it.

 

[cyberlocc]

less then 2.5 .

Less than 2.5 what lol?

"Fog normally occurs at a relative humidity near 100%. This occurs from either added moisture in the air, or falling ambient air temperature. However, fog can form at lower humidities, and can sometimes fail to form with relative humidity at 100%."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fog

Are you saying fog comes at 97.5%? or 2.5 degrees diffrence? I'm confused?

Fog as far as I understand, and that link talks about. Is air that have absorbed 100% of their limit of water for the current temperature, or When Dew point Meets Temperature, however you want to say it.

 

[Kristen Wilkins]

Less than 2.5 what lol?

"Fog normally occurs at a relative humidity near 100%. This occurs from either added moisture in the air, or falling ambient air temperature. However, fog can form at lower humidities, and can sometimes fail to form with relative humidity at 100%."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fog

Are you saying fog comes at 97.5%? or 2.5 degrees diffrence? I'm confused?

No I should have been much more clear . I was with some and reading this . I will be more clear in a bit .

 

[Kristen Wilkins]

Less than 2.5 what lol?

"Fog normally occurs at a relative humidity near 100%. This occurs from either added moisture in the air, or falling ambient air temperature. However, fog can form at lower humidities, and can sometimes fail to form with relative humidity at 100%."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fog

Are you saying fog comes at 97.5%? or 2.5 degrees diffrence? I'm confused?

Fog as far as I understand, and that link talks about. Is air that have absorbed 100% of their limit of water for the current temperature, or When Dew point Meets Temperature, however you want to say it.

Fog forms when the difference between air temperature and dew point is less than 2.5 °C(4.5 °F).[5]

Fog begins to form when water vapor condensesinto tiny liquid water droplets that are suspended in the air. Six examples of ways that water vapor is added to the air are by wind convergence into areas of upward motion;[6] precipitation or virga falling from above;[7] daytime heating evaporating water from the surface of oceans, water bodies, or wet land;[8] transpiration from plants;[9] cool or dry air moving over warmer water;[10] and lifting air over mountains.[11] Water vapor normally begins to condense on condensation nuclei such as dust, ice, and salt in order to form clouds.[12][13] Fog, like its elevated cousin stratus, is a stable cloud deck which tends to form when a cool, stable air mass is trapped underneath a warm air mass.[14]

Fog normally occurs at a relative humidity near 100%.[15] This occurs from either added moisture in the air, or falling ambient air temperature.[15]However, fog can form at lower humidities, and can sometimes fail to form with relative humidity at 100%. At 100% relative humidity, the air cannot hold additional moisture, thus, the air will become supersaturated if additional moisture is added.

Fog commonly produces precipitation in the form of drizzle or very light snow. Drizzle occurs when the humidity of fog attains 100% and the minute cloud droplets begin to coalesce into larger droplets.[16]This can occur when the fog layer is lifted and cooled sufficiently, or when it is forcibly compressed from above by descending air. Drizzle becomes freezing drizzle when the temperature at the surface drops below the freezing point.

The thickness of a fog layer is largely determined by the altitude of the inversion boundary, which in coastal or oceanic locales is also the top of the marine layer, above which the air mass is warmer and drier. The inversion boundary varies its altitude primarily in response to the weight of the air above it, which is measured in terms of atmospheric pressure. The marine layer, and any fogbank it may contain, will be "squashed" when the pressure is high, and conversely, may expand upwards when the pressure above it is lowering.

 

[cyberlocc]

Fog forms when the difference between air temperature and dew point is less than 2.5 °C(4.5 °F).[5]

Fog begins to form when water vapor condensesinto tiny liquid water droplets that are suspended in the air. Six examples of ways that water vapor is added to the air are by wind convergence into areas of upward motion;[6] precipitation or virga falling from above;[7] daytime heating evaporating water from the surface of oceans, water bodies, or wet land;[8] transpiration from plants;[9] cool or dry air moving over warmer water;[10] and lifting air over mountains.[11] Water vapor normally begins to condense on condensation nuclei such as dust, ice, and salt in order to form clouds.[12][13] Fog, like its elevated cousin stratus, is a stable cloud deck which tends to form when a cool, stable air mass is trapped underneath a warm air mass.[14]

Fog normally occurs at a relative humidity near 100%.[15] This occurs from either added moisture in the air, or falling ambient air temperature.[15]However, fog can form at lower humidities, and can sometimes fail to form with relative humidity at 100%. At 100% relative humidity, the air cannot hold additional moisture, thus, the air will become supersaturated if additional moisture is added.

Fog commonly produces precipitation in the form of drizzle or very light snow. Drizzle occurs when the humidity of fog attains 100% and the minute cloud droplets begin to coalesce into larger droplets.[16]This can occur when the fog layer is lifted and cooled sufficiently, or when it is forcibly compressed from above by descending air. Drizzle becomes freezing drizzle when the temperature at the surface drops below the freezing point.

The thickness of a fog layer is largely determined by the altitude of the inversion boundary, which in coastal or oceanic locales is also the top of the marine layer, above which the air mass is warmer and drier. The inversion boundary varies its altitude primarily in response to the weight of the air above it, which is measured in terms of atmospheric pressure. The marine layer, and any fogbank it may contain, will be "squashed" when the pressure is high, and conversely, may expand upwards when the pressure above it is lowering.

I think that is where we see separation between the fog I get, in my area. Where you can see through it, about 40-50 ft but not further, and the fog the foggers put out that you cant see an inch passed, I think the later the "wetting fog" is 100% RH.

Could be completely off base though.

I had read about this long ago, and read that link, and I think that is basic of what I remeber, but I would have to look more in depth, they kind of touch on that with what you posted too though.