Cost of breeding Veileds in the UK.

[jojothefirst]

I started a thread 5 months ago on this topic here:
https://www.chameleonforums.com/what-cost-breeding-veileds-25917/

The main thing I wanted to find out was what the difference would be in breeding in the Uk to in the USA or Canada.

Pretty much everyone said that I would lose money but all the research I did suggested that the price of food in the Uk is a lot less than in the USA and Canada and also the amount that they could be sold for was more in the UK.

Anyway, I thought I could make abit of money (and if I didn’t I would still enjoy doing it), and people said they would be interested to find out if I could or not so here are my overall findings

All the things I can think of that I Spent:




CAGE £60.00
FOOD £8.85
£5.25
£7.00
£5.75
£5.25
£3.50
£5.25
£3.70
LIGHT £18.00
PLANTS £30.00
INCUBATER £0.00
TERMOSTAT £35.00
TUBS £0.00
VERMICULITE £6.00

£193.55

I live in a house were I am charged a "communal charge" for heating, electric, gas, water ect, so it hasnt cost me any extra in electric to keep the babies so thats why theres no amount in the list for this.
The incubater I used is home made out of a polysirene box and the tubes I used were cricket tubes so both didnt cost me anything.
The food cost actualy include food for my 2 adults so its actualy abit less than that but never mind.
If there is anything more I havent listed please point it out.


Amount I Sold babies for:

4x £35 = £140.00
1x £40.00
2x £30 = £60.00
16x £20 = £320.00

Total = £560.00

PROFIT of £366.45


I had a total of 26 hatch, 16 I sold to 2 local GOOD reptile shops, 7 privately, 1 I gave to my dad and 2 died.

Just so people know, I was very lucky to not have to pay for any electricity and to have alot of things that I wasnt already using like lamp holders, some fake plants and a few other bits.
And at the time I sold them, there seemed to be a real shortage of veileds around so I was able to sell them for abit more than normal. I even had people travel from around 100 miles away to collect them and some reptile shops were selling them for £90 each!

It is a very enjoyable exerince but it took all of my free time up so unless they have the time then its proberly not a good idea to do it.

 

[bradley]

you could have saved money even more by putting the babies in plastic storage tubs instead of paying 60 quid for a viv

 

[laurie]

I know I lose my shirt on every clutch I hatch, and yes they are a lot of work, but for me the amount of fascination and joy makes it all worth it.

 

[jojothefirst]

you could have saved money even more by putting the babies in plastic storage tubs instead of paying 60 quid for a viv

My set up at the time had my adult male and female in 1 viv with a divider between so I bought the viv to keep some of the babies in ad now there ll sold I have put the male in it removed the divider, I will do it that way on the next batch I think.

I know I lose my shirt on every clutch I hatch, and yes they are a lot of work, but for me the amount of fascination and joy makes it all worth it.

that was my thoughts going into it, that I would really enjoy it and if theres money to be made then thats a huge bonus.

 

[Pumpkinface]

i like this thread because now i know how much a quid is >_<

 

[pssh]

I think you made more money because 35 to you is about 56 to us. Most veiled chameleon babies here are sold for 30-40, or 18.5-25 for you guys.

 

[jojothefirst]

i like this thread because now i know how much a quid is >_<

Huh? Very random!

I think you made more money because 35 to you is about 56 to us. Most veiled chameleon babies here are sold for 30-40, or 18.5-25 for you guys.

I agree totaly.
That was 1 of the main point's I was trying to make in the 1st thread I made 5 months ago but I dont think people belived me or maybe didnt understand what I was saying.

 

[jojothefirst]

Alot of views but not many comments! Was kind of hoping the doubters (and there were alot!) would have something to say.

 

[sunndyd]

uk here, im to chicken to breed lol 1st cameleon but based on what i have read maybe in the future when i gain more experiance with the one i have had her for about 4 days now so still learning . well done on the profit a poo you to all the ye of little faiths in the uk lol

 

[Kameeldrift]

South Africa

I breed chameleons in South Africa on a semi commercial basis. The main species we sell are Veiled and Panthers (we have sold captive bred Fischers plus some Werners and Jacksons). To date we are the only supplier of captive bred panthers in the country but I am pleased to say that others are now having some success and should be providing youngsters in about a year or so. We bred Carpets for a while but found that the market wasn't interested. It appeared that some pet shops put out rumours that they only lived for a couple of years, which put people off.

Back to Veiled:
We sell roughly 400 each year. The prices here range from R300 to R450 each to the pet shops, which is roughly GBP25 (or quid if you prefer) to USD 40. Pet shops sell them for around R800 each (GBP60 / USD 100).

As the Veiled is the cheapest and most easily obtainable it has become very popular. This is good except for the fact that some have seen this as a route to fast bucks (quid, rand, whatever). I had one person ask if they could buy 50 Veiled as they were going to corner the market! Needless to say the sale was not made and I heard that after losing several Veiled bought elsewhere the person moved onto parrots. As Veiled are so easy to breed (at least for the first two clutches) there are often young Veiled on the market. Regrettably, this does not always bode well and many soon end up with MBD and other problems due to ignorance.

To offset the lack of knowledge I set up a web site (www.sa-chameleons.com) and even wrote a book (www.mantispress.co.za). Time will tell if chameleons benefit but the book sales are good .

So- is breeding Veileds profitable? If it done sensibly, yes. I agree with the comment about the neonates and vivariums. We use open topped 25litre plastic tubs with a 5.0 UV simply placed across it.

We breed our own fruit flies, locusts and silkworms to supplement the crickets which we buy.

I would certainly recommend trying to breed Veileds but not necessarily for profit - trust me when I say that having 200 newly hatched Veileds on the go is an awful lot of work - and needs a lot of space. But from an interest perspective it is enlightening. I also noted that a lot of people who bred 'pet' females became upset when she died after her second or third batch egg bound.

Locally, the market is almost saturated. So maybe the book is having an affect! There are now many Veiled for sale and I shall not breed them for a while as I don't want to see them being sold too cheaply to people who will not give them the care they deserve. I normally cut the call if someone asks for my 'cheapest' chameleon. You can guarantee there will be no UV, calcium etc and I am fed up with question from people who have kept their now sick cham in a fish tank. Not all pet shops are of a high standard here (but some are superb).

David

 

[nick barta]

David,

You sound like an intelligent breeder who has allowed morality and ethical guidelines to be central in your business. Bravo!

Nick

 

[HairyScaryMark]

Thank you for this information, both from the OP and other people who replied. I have noticed the prices of Vieled Chameleons as well as the price of some of the feeders quoted by US contributors has been out of line with what I have seen around here. I actually think you could have sold some of them for more money, if that was a concern and you probably could have saved money on food in the longer run by culturing flies etc.

Out of curiosity, I once asked my local pet shop about breeding Vieled Chameleons and they said that sometimes they can't actually get Vieleds and they only use a couple of suppliers because there is otherwise a significant risk they turn up dead in the post. They don't generally get Panther Chameleons at all because of the high price and lack of guarantee they will arrive alive.

 

[Kameeldrift]

Interesting comment about dead arrivals.

I have made it a point never to courier animals. South Africa is a strange place: a huge country with only a few centres of population - Johnanesburg, Durban, Capetown and Kimberley (with a few smaller ones dotted about - this will undoubtedly upset the Bloemfontein crowd!).

This means that if anyone outside of Johannesburg wants a chameleon they have to collect. Surprisingly, I have had people drive from Capetown (about 1,000 miles), Durban and Kimberley specifically to collect.

Snakes and other lizards are whizzed about by post with abandon, much to the dismay of the ineffectual and ill-informed Nature Conservation body. But chameleons, I am sure, would not take the strain. We probably have the reverse problem here to Aberdeen - yours will suffer from the cold whereas ours might get too hot.

However, I believe that it is done successfully in the States?
David
(Thanks, Nick)

 

[jojothefirst]

uk here, im to chicken to breed lol 1st cameleon but based on what i have read maybe in the future when i gain more experiance with the one i have had her for about 4 days now so still learning . well done on the profit a poo you to all the ye of little faiths in the uk lol

lol, thank you!
I think you are right to gain as much experience as you can before even thinking about breeding. This was my 1st time but I read huge amounts from this forum, (some of which is not right so you have to determin which things are fact and which are opinion.)

It is a lot of work and can cause a lot of stress and you must have the time for it. I had alot of other things going on at the time aswell as work (they hatched a month earlier than exspected.) which ment I had to sell 16 of them to pet shops for almost half as much.
Hopefully the next batch I will have even more time to sell them all my self.

 

[hallenhe]

Interesting thread; I always like to see the stats about breeding, though I'm some years away from trying it with anything aside from pygmeleons (and I only dare there because of the small clutch size).
David, shipping is pretty common in the States, and all of my chameleons have been shipped cross-country to me. Many breeders won't ship if temperatures at either end are not expected to exceed 35 F (1-2 C), and warm and/or cool packs are added as appropriate.
HairyScaryMark, my pet shop does breed veileds ocassionally, but more often purchases the juvies it sells. They told me they don't carry panthers because of lack of a wholesaler; they keep informed on the reputable breeders and pass along names when they have inquiries.

 

[Kameeldrift]

The issue locally is partly the weather and partly the quality of the services on offer. Generally, it is best to avoid it with chams due to the likelihood of the containers either going missing or being left on the runway in the blazing sun. There is a third issue relating to permits, whereby each province has their own 'laws' which are arbitrary and enforced with variable enthusiasm.

E.g. I own a game farm which has wild animals, e.g. kudu, giraffe etc (and wild Flap neck chameleons). One day we found a new born blesbok (medium size brown antelope) that had been abandoned by its mother. We left it one night to be sure that it had been abandoned but since we get a lot of jackal and caracal we decided that it needed to be removed to stop it becoming someone's dinner. The act of driving the 60 miles from the farm in North West Province to our home in Johannesburg broke the law as I did not have an import permit, so I was threatened with prosecution by Nature Conservation. I was told that a permit would take 2 weeks! The gentleman fro NC was unmoved that the animal would have been long dead by the time they issued the permit.

Just to add some background on costs: most pet shops in SA work on 100% + profit margin. Selling a Veiled at R400 to a petshop will invariably see the same cham sold at R800. I charge R1,000 for a 4 month old panther which means the pet shops would want to charge R2,000, which makes them expensive in terms of local expectations. Also, pet shops are willing to buy 10 to 20 Veiled at a time but will only buy a panther one at a time and even then normally only if they have a buyer lined up. But they still demand the 100% profit.

I do see the need for the profit margin and I would not run the risk of owning a shop, but that is the main reason locally that pet shops don't buy panthers. It is not lack of availability, as I have 100+ a year for sale.
David

 

[jojothefirst]

I would love to have panther's 1 day and breed them (if there is a strong market for them here) but I dont have the space, time and more importantly, enough knowledge about them.
And the only shop I have seen 1 in wanted around £350 for it!!!