What is the cost of breeding veileds?

[jojackson]

I did have to learn deutsch at school, but many years ago, much is forgotten now, because I dont use it.
I dont know why I used it, the smiley would have sufficed, but The forum requires a minimum character post.
Keeps the brain working when you get older, also keeps others wondering what you are speaking about.

 

[chequepoint]

Its all good if you're motivated by ego, I was just curious. This is by nature an extremely selfish hobby, so I get that. I just like to see people admit it.

I keep chameleons as pets because it makes me happy, even though I know they clearly aren't their happiest living in a 16 square foot box on a houseplant eating crickets (And other assorted insects chosen based on my general convenience, certainly not what they'd eat in the wild) . It is entirely selfish and self serving. I care more about the pleasure that having the animal in box that I control brings me than I do about the quality of life for that animal, which would be much happier in madagascar or wherever that particular animal is from.

When I breed two animals, I'm risking the life of one or both of them for potential financial gain, and my personal ego. It's a conscious decision to value money and personal satisfaction over the life and health of my pets.

The only thing I ever pointed out, was if you were breeding veilds for money, you might want to try a better path because you'll lose. If you're breeding for egotistical reasons.. no reason not to.

 

[Julirs]

Wow...want to say many things but won't. Ego? I provide a very nice quality of life for my animals. Nicer than they would have in the wild, especially since the vast majority of my collection is CBB. I spend a great deal of time in making sure they are housed and cared for correctly, and I have the added benefit of living in coastal Flordia-where my animals spend time outside. I only breed females of premium health, and practice good feeding practices to reduce clutch sizes. Ego? I think not. To help reduce imports of WC animals-I hope. But Ego-yeah it fed my ego to produce a top notch clutch of Veileds. But unlike what you stated above-it does not feed my ego to have control over keeping animals in a box.

 

[Eric Adrignola]

We're all keeping these animals for selfish reasons - and it's not a bad thing. Even a person setting up a non-profit chameleon farm in madagascar for release intot he wild it doing so because that's what makes them happy.

Keeping animals costs money. Breeding them costs money too. They're both ways to experience the animals and their behavior. Both bring me joy. I also get enjoyment abou educating about them. Selling them for some extra cash is loads of fun too. Raising them, breedign them, educating people about them so that they can care for them after they pay me money for them is the total package.

I enjoy every moment of this hobby - checking for parasites, treatign for illness, feeding them, cage setup (even building cages), breeding, hatching, educating and selling. The only part I dislike is cleaning cages and shipping animals.

i've managed ot make a "profit" most of the time. This takes into account that the time I spend is sunk - I'm spending it no matter what. If i were to factor the time I spend into it, I'm making less than I did at my fullt ime job, if not minium wage!

Still, it took me a long time to get things to the point where I could breed and sell animals and end up with more money coming in than went out.

Numbers is a big thing. I breed for quality, not quantity. When you have impressive bloodlines, you can get more money - that helps in many ways. Private breeders are interested, and you dont' have to worry about selling to too many beginners. It's mre comforting to sell to experenced people than a little kid who might kill it!

Also, the market can only support so many animals at once. If you only have 12-30 animals to sell, you'll have an easier time selling them. Holding back a few is easier. You can take your time to sell them. Hatch out upwards of 50, and you'll be dumping them into the Everglades in a month or two... I keep my females laying 1-2 clutches a year, almost never above 30 eggs per clutch. As a result, I never hatch out so many it becomes overwhelming.

Incubated cooler, they hatch out bigger, and eat 1/8" crickets to 1/4" crickets from the start. Only having to get 1-2,000 of those tiny little 1/8 crickets helps a lot.

Sure, most of the time I coudl make a lot more money if I had more babies to sell. But, by keeping things manageable, I never lose money.

When you see people selling veileds in lots - that's usualyl when they have so many, they HAVE to sell them. They're not always losing money. Keeping clutches small (and infrequent!) helps keep things easy and cheap.

Try to keep numbers low, and you will not have as much trouble.

So many people that go into it all out end up getting into a mess.

 

[sandrachameleon]

I have already said that I will get a lot of enjoyment out of doing this irrespective of if I make money or not.

It is exciting and rewarding, even if its expensive and time consuming.

 

[chequepoint]

But unlike what you stated above-it does not feed my ego to have control over keeping animals in a box.

If it didn't, you wouldn't do it. I'm not judging, I'm just being honest with myself and the world. We keep animals for selfish reasons, and thats fine. I do it, I love it. But you can't provide a higher quality of life for an animal in captivity than they would achieve in the wild. They may survive longer in your care than they would in captivity, but that doesn't equate to quality of life.

Keeping pets has nothing to do with your need for survival, and everything to do with your desire to find pleasure in life. You're putting your need for amusement over that of the animals. If people weren't selfish, there wouldn't be any wild caught vs. captive bred dilemma, people wouldn't keep pets.

Its all ego driven. But like I said, I'm an active participant. At the end of the day I have no problem with anyone breeding anything, as long as they at least are able to keep the animals healthy and as happy as an animal in a cage can be. I respect you in particular, and think you do a spectacular job with your animals. I actually had a conversation in real life with another forum member two days ago, and mentioned how I thought you were one of the better people on here, so don't take any of it as an attack. There is no crime in doing something because it makes you happy, or because it makes you money, its just interesting to ponder the implications and motivations of those activities from time to time.

 

[Julirs]

I guess I understand where you are coming from, it is just the EGO part I guess that did not sit well with me. I don't look at it as EGO. I do enjoy working with them and educating people about them. But I guess we all tend to look at the work in a negative way rather than the psychological definition.

 

[Eric Adrignola]

I think it's in how you define Ego to yourself. Also, there's no ay ot know what an animal's quality of life is, and if it's better in the wild or not. Personally, I strongly believe that my animals have a higher quality of life than they would in the wild. I don't think they have a strong desire for freedom, free of cages and such. I think it's more stimuli and responses, checks, stressors, etc.

Hard to tell what is quality for them. Do they even have the ability to "prefer"?

it IS all about our own enjoyment. No doubt.

 

[chequepoint]

I think it's in how you define Ego to yourself. Also, there's no ay ot know what an animal's quality of life is, and if it's better in the wild or not. Personally, I strongly believe that my animals have a higher quality of life than they would in the wild. I don't think they have a strong desire for freedom, free of cages and such. I think it's more stimuli and responses, checks, stressors, etc.

Hard to tell what is quality for them. Do they even have the ability to "prefer"?

it IS all about our own enjoyment. No doubt.

I think if you put a chameleon in a cage outside, and leave the door open.. its going out of the cage and up the nearest tree it can find..

Also know that if I put crickets in a cup.. and one super worm.. my guy will go right for the superworm, and my girl will go right for the crickets.. so they obviously have the ability to have unique preferences.

 

[Julirs]

I think if you put a chameleon in a cage outside, and leave the door open.. its going out of the cage and up the nearest tree it can find..

Also know that if I put crickets in a cup.. and one super worm.. my guy will go right for the superworm, and my girl will go right for the crickets.. so they obviously have the ability to have unique preferences.

Going up the tree-would you call that preference or maybe instinct?

 

[WelshOneEmma]

I have read on hear that they get sold for $30 - 40 and pet shops take them for $20. In uk im hoping 2 get £30 and if not i can get £20 in local pet shop so if thats right they are worth more
I am going to document the cost of everything i can think of before my eggs hatch and then the actual cost afterwards. P.s, i live in wales and us welsh dont like being called english lol.

Haha! So very true! I work for an American company, and I have to explain this all the time! (I am a welshie living in England for my sins!). Also, I will comment that a lot more places here are starting to sell reptiles, along with other animals. Having purchased my first cham from a pet store, I would NEVER buy one from one again. I try not to buy any animals from pet stores these days (my rats came from a rescue centre and my cats were "free to good homes"), no matter how much you would like to think the store knows what it is talking about, it's all about profit, and most of the staff are there to make money and don't give a crap about the animals. Please note that I said MOST there!

 

[BocaJan]

I have to chime in here and support the things Juliars is saying. I have 60 babies in two big bins with lots of crawling on things. They are 1 month old now and soooo cute. I enjoy my chams and think of them as a hobby, never a business. I only have a few adults to deal with. When thinking about mate vs not mate I decided that my ladies would have eggs whether they were fertile or not and since I have a very randy male, I mate the ladies.

The 60 I am raising now eat 2 boxes of 1/4s a week, give or take. I have been mixing in a few 1/2s to see if they eat them and you betcha they do. I am fort unate to know a person who wholesales feeders so I get my boxes of 1500 for $12. The 1/2s and 3/4s are the same price for 1000. I feed my babies 2x/day and within 10 minutes whatever is put in their bins is gone. It is time to separate them. I have some holdbacks in mind even at this early age and have cages for them. Once they are eating 1/2s they will be going into cages.

I don't plan on making any money, just covering my costs, but that is ok. I am an at home person and I am always watching and caring for my little ones.

 

[jojothefirst]

Haha! So very true! I work for an American company, and I have to explain this all the time! (I am a welshie living in England for my sins!). Also, I will comment that a lot more places here are starting to sell reptiles, along with other animals. Having purchased my first cham from a pet store, I would NEVER buy one from one again. I try not to buy any animals from pet stores these days (my rats came from a rescue centre and my cats were "free to good homes"), no matter how much you would like to think the store knows what it is talking about, it's all about profit, and most of the staff are there to make money and don't give a crap about the animals. Please note that I said MOST there!

hehe, I went to florida a few years back and most people seemed to think wales was in england or had not heard of wales at all! I ended up just telling people I was from the UK instead lol.

Have you had a bad experience with a petshop or are you just generaly speaking?

I have to chime in here and support the things Juliars is saying. I have 60 babies in two big bins with lots of crawling on things. They are 1 month old now and soooo cute. I enjoy my chams and think of them as a hobby, never a business. I only have a few adults to deal with. When thinking about mate vs not mate I decided that my ladies would have eggs whether they were fertile or not and since I have a very randy male, I mate the ladies.

The 60 I am raising now eat 2 boxes of 1/4s a week, give or take. I have been mixing in a few 1/2s to see if they eat them and you betcha they do. I am fort unate to know a person who wholesales feeders so I get my boxes of 1500 for $12. The 1/2s and 3/4s are the same price for 1000. I feed my babies 2x/day and within 10 minutes whatever is put in their bins is gone. It is time to separate them. I have some holdbacks in mind even at this early age and have cages for them. Once they are eating 1/2s they will be going into cages.

I don't plan on making any money, just covering my costs, but that is ok. I am an at home person and I am always watching and caring for my little ones.

I have found a website over here that I can get a box of 500 micro cricket for around £3.50 (approx $5) and 1500 for around £6.50 (approx $10). Can get them cheaper again if buying in bigger bulks, and thats without knowing someone to give me special rates. So from that I would assume that it does cost alot more for feeders outside the UK.

 

[WelshOneEmma]

Have you had a bad experience with a petshop or are you just generaly speaking?

I had a very bad experience. We bought our first cham from a 'specialist' reptile store (thats all they sell). They seemed to know what they were talking about, and we bought the £450 set up (all completely wrong of course) and the £95 'male' chameleon. We had a few issues (started digging, turns out it was a he-she) and she went downhill. Died after 6 weeks. We paid for an autopsy, and she was very sick when they sold her to us. When I went to see them, the response was "that's unfortunate, they are expensive animals". They just didn't care. I have only been back once, and they had a tiny baby in there, and it didn't look great. I have also been to world of water and their reptile centre, and have seen a baby in a tank, no UV and light on at 40C! Again, when we told them, they just didnt care. (i emailed the manager complaining). Our second cham came from a breeder. Yes, he is trying to make some money, but pet stores don't seem to care about the animals. When we first started keeping rats, they were kept on sawdust (big no no for rats) in the store, and no-one cared about the conditions of the animals. They are a business, it's unfortunate, but i can't see that changing. I now try to get my animals from breeders or rescues. I would love to be able to breed my own, but would worry so much about who they were going to, I would never get rid of them!

 

[jojothefirst]

I had a very bad experience. We bought our first cham from a 'specialist' reptile store (thats all they sell). They seemed to know what they were talking about, and we bought the £450 set up (all completely wrong of course) and the £95 'male' chameleon. We had a few issues (started digging, turns out it was a he-she) and she went downhill. Died after 6 weeks. We paid for an autopsy, and she was very sick when they sold her to us. When I went to see them, the response was "that's unfortunate, they are expensive animals". They just didn't care. I have only been back once, and they had a tiny baby in there, and it didn't look great. I have also been to world of water and their reptile centre, and have seen a baby in a tank, no UV and light on at 40C! Again, when we told them, they just didnt care. (i emailed the manager complaining). Our second cham came from a breeder. Yes, he is trying to make some money, but pet stores don't seem to care about the animals. When we first started keeping rats, they were kept on sawdust (big no no for rats) in the store, and no-one cared about the conditions of the animals. They are a business, it's unfortunate, but i can't see that changing. I now try to get my animals from breeders or rescues. I would love to be able to breed my own, but would worry so much about who they were going to, I would never get rid of them!

Are these stores in wales or up were you live now? Theres a World of Water by me in Cardiff which I will avoid if its the same one!
Although I dont remember a retile department in there

 

[WelshOneEmma]

Are these stores in wales or up were you live now? Theres a World of Water by me in Cardiff which I will avoid if its the same one!
Although I dont remember a retile department in there

They are up here, but WoW is probably similar in set up to somewhere like Pets at Home. It's a store, therefore it's about making money and not the animals. I would never use them. In future I will buy direct from a breeder.

 

[jojothefirst]

They are up here, but WoW is probably similar in set up to somewhere like Pets at Home. It's a store, therefore it's about making money and not the animals. I would never use them. In future I will buy direct from a breeder.

fare enough. although i dont believe the reptile shop by me doesnt look after its animals.

 

[ciafardo 4]

You are way off on how many crix baby veileds consume !Just like juli said they eat these micro's for about a week hell i have had veileds hatch that could handle 1/4 crix right out of the egg. The only way you would have a chance at turning a profit is if you were raising your own feeders and even then its doubtful.

 

[Redeye]

There are good bad and GREAT Pet shops, I happen to work at a GREAT one


It all depends on how close to the cricket farms you are, as to price
how much are the crickets in Ukraine???

I have a friend in Northern California that pays 2-3x what I pay in Southern Cali.

 

[Dave Weldon]

Howdy,

I found this "bumper sticker" aimed at a different topic but it does get a chuckle when related to chameleons :

Then there's: "How do you end-up with a small fortune breeding chameleons? Start out with a large fortune" .