Birth Defects - *Graphic Images*

[Lancecham]

Interesting observations, everyone. I definitely can believe that temperature spikes or generally too high of temperatures could result in deformations and it seems like a number of people have experienced situations which could be tied to that.

I was thinking more about my two cases and finally came up with a commonality. The clutch of Furcifer cf. lateralis var. "major" that had the babies that lacked the tail was given to me in a potted plant when I purchased the mother about a month after the clutch was laid. I subsequently removed the eggs and incubated them in medium. The clutch of Kinyongia tavetana that have just hatched were laid in the soil of one of my terrariums while I was out of town and I did not remove the eggs until a couple days later when I returned.

While an early temperature spike prior to moving them into incubation medium and an incubator could have occurred, I don't believe a brief temperature spike that early in incubation would cause it. On the other hand, its possible that I was not exact enough about placing the eggs in the exact manner they were laid and these two eggs were ever so slightly tilted, disrupting the development. Alternatively, perhaps there is some type of fertilizer in the potting soils that was able to leach into the peripheral eggs and interfered with the development.

I probably will never know for sure, but they are interesting thoughts.

Chris

More recently, I was using a Thin Geek incubator/refridgerator and it malfunctioned. When I went to bed the eggs were at the correct temp. When I woke up, the thermostat was at 110. I didn't use a temp gun to check the temp of the eggs as I was more focused on cooling the eggs down as quickly as possible. The eggs/medium was definitely warmer than my body temperature as the eggs and medium were very warm to the touch.
The eggs were at the 2 month mark of incubation. Every single egg hatched and every baby looked great they are about a month old now and looking fantastic.
I wish I knew how long the eggs were exposed to the high temps.

 

[JonRich]

Or due to a "knock out" gene of some sort.

Funny you say that. I saw a study on "triggers" in DNA. These "triggers" can create a new trait or suppress a current one.

There are even traits that lay dormant that were once relevant to that animal's survival. eg: Fur for use in a cold climate. But then the climate changed and got warmer. The same population started to have generations that had less fur. They attributed this to these "triggers".

They also were trying to figure out if the animals had the ability to control these "triggers".

They also suspected that there were external factors that can affect these triggers. For example: chemical changes and nutritional deficiencies.

It could be that there were deficiencies in your wild caught animals , or the chemicals in the ferts in the soil used to start incubation.

We as humans also have some birth defects due to nutritional deficiencies.

 

[JonRich]

I'll have to find the study of this.

But scientists were trying to artificially stimulate a "fur" trigger in Elephants. See if they could get a elephant to give birth to a fur covered offspring.

Cave fish once had eyes. They even have the sockets and skull structure for it. Just didn't needed it on a dark cave.

Hairless animals (naked mole rats .etc)

Prehensile tails (Chams, Opossums, Monkeys, etc)

Featherless heads of Vultures

webbed feet (waterfoul, amphibians, mammals)

These can all be "defects" that worked out and was retained!

 

[JonRich]

Chameleons have no outer ear opening but their inner ear is just as developed as other lizards. This means that their ability to detect airborne sound waves is limited to frequencies that are able to transmit into the inner ear through the skin and tissue. These frequencies tend to be more low pitched sounds of longer wave lengths. They convert into vibrations better then high pitched/short sound waves, which can then be transmitted to the inner ear. This is why substrate vibrations in the environment are well detected by chameleons and why they produce and utilize them for communication.

Chris

What if a Cham was born with ears?. And that Cham was able to detect and process a wider range of sounds. I have been wondering what my Cham was hearing and what was not audible to him.

(sorry,i have a lot of computer time at work, lol)

 

[Chris Anderson]

Chris, correct me if I'm wrong, but by two weeks most embryos already have all the major limbs and body parts mapped out and have that tadpole look with limb buds. It doesn't strike me as impossible that a temperature spike (or exposure to fertilizer, etc.) in the first week or so would inhibit or otherwise ruin the development of the limb buds, eye buds, or the tail. I want to remember that if a limb doesn't develop at all, it's due to something that happens in the very beginning of embryonic development. Or due to a "knock out" gene of some sort, which isn't necessarily out of the question either. Reptiles can have genetic issues as well, like mutations, etc.

Olimpia - It depends a lot on developmental rates. Your Brookesia sp., etc., have developmental rates that are in line with most other lizards. Some of your larger, more derived genera, however, have much slower developmental rates and many of these taxa also experience developmental arrest (embryonic diapause) where gastrulation occurs several months after being laid. Further, some species lay their eggs where the embryos are at limb bud stages and others prior to gastrulation. Given the derived nature of both species I've experienced it in and the known embryonic diapause in one, I doubt temperature at the start of incubation was the cause.

Out of curiousity Chris, what generation are these tavetana? Reason I ask is, I notice that it also has a large strangely shaped head. I bred snakes for years and years, and after 4 generations of imbreeding (I was working with Elaphe and Lampropeltis, and when breeding for certain traits such as Lavender corns or Amelanistic etc., it's a necessity to imbreed), I began to see a pattern of neonate snakes born with no eyes, extremely short tails and a 'dome head'- that's what I called them, 'Dome-heads'. Your picture of the tavetana looks exactly like the snake version of this abnormality I hatched.

EDIT!!! Wow!!! While I was typing my post, the poster right above mine put some pictures- Look at the second from the bottom- 'DOME-HEAD'!!!!

These are CH from a gravid WC import so I doubt inbreeding is the cause. There definitely are cases of Dome-head in baby chameleons where the babies typically are premature or otherwise don't make it, but I don't tend to think these babies are showing that overall.

More recently, I was using a Thin Geek incubator/refridgerator and it malfunctioned. When I went to bed the eggs were at the correct temp. When I woke up, the thermostat was at 110. I didn't use a temp gun to check the temp of the eggs as I was more focused on cooling the eggs down as quickly as possible. The eggs/medium was definitely warmer than my body temperature as the eggs and medium were very warm to the touch.
The eggs were at the 2 month mark of incubation. Every single egg hatched and every baby looked great they are about a month old now and looking fantastic.
I wish I knew how long the eggs were exposed to the high temps.

Interesting, How long was the overall incubation? Perhaps your clutch was still in the developmental arrest period?

Funny you say that. I saw a study on "triggers" in DNA. These "triggers" can create a new trait or suppress a current one.

There are even traits that lay dormant that were once relevant to that animal's survival. eg: Fur for use in a cold climate. But then the climate changed and got warmer. The same population started to have generations that had less fur. They attributed this to these "triggers".

They also were trying to figure out if the animals had the ability to control these "triggers".

They also suspected that there were external factors that can affect these triggers. For example: chemical changes and nutritional deficiencies.

It could be that there were deficiencies in your wild caught animals , or the chemicals in the ferts in the soil used to start incubation.

We as humans also have some birth defects due to nutritional deficiencies.

Given that wild chameleons are typically far healthier than captive animals and the condition the female was in when I received her was excellent, I doubt it was nutrient deficiency. Also, I would expect maternal effects to be more evenly spread through the clutch and the rest of the clutch seems very healthy. It is possible, however, that chemical fertilizers form the soil could have leached into certain eggs more than others and caused the issue but who knows for sure.

Chris

 

[fluxlizard]

It is possible, however, that chemical fertilizers form the soil could have leached into certain eggs more than others and caused the issue but who knows for sure.

I had an interesting experience with miracle grow perlite a couple of years ago. It had come onto the market in my area in a big way- the only perlite available at walmart, lowes, etc, and I thought I had checked the packaging to make sure there were no fertilizers in the perlite. Somehow I missed the fact that miracle grow perlite did in fact have miracle grow in it. Maybe because it was the only perlite now available, so I only glanced at the packaging to check, working on the assumption that if it was the only thing on the market it would probably not have it. Also i seem to recall 2 different colored bags or something, and I saw that one had it and thought the other did not. At any rate I was mistaken and discovered it only after I had bearded dragon eggs set in it for several weeks. One clutch in particular was in the fertilized perlite almost to hatch (I think- a little foggy- maybe went to hatch, maybe went nearly to hatch because I reset nearly all my eggs in vermiculite when I discovered my mistake). Anyway- that first clutch of the season was held back to do some feeding experiments (my 100 dragons fed zillions of tiny roaches every few hours while they grew over the summer experiment).

OK- so here's the punchline- every one of those first dragons was male at the end of the summer. I think the odds are really, really small - 20 something from the same clutch all male.

 

[Dez]

I discovered deformed baby panther just tonight.... in a clutch of about 18 all but three hatched. The two eggs started to mold but the third still looked ok for a bit longer.

I tonight I decided to open the third egg and I found a disfigured fetus inside. His back legs where short and twisted, as was his tail. His head seemed disproportional with its body. He also had some of his insides on the outside of his body. poor little one was not meant to live

I am not sure what caused this as the rest of the clutch (besides the two others) hatched and are doing well.

 

[kinyonga]

Is there an electomagnetic field created by the heat source in the incubator?

 

[Dez]

We do the closet method with no heater. Temps stay between 72 and 78 for the duration of incubation..which on average is about 7 months for veiled and panthers.

 

[rantotro]

This year we had a baby with a hunchback. But it did not hinder the shoulder or the pelvis belt and so it could climb. Its shooting was good but it grows a little bit slower than its siblings.
But I found someone, who wanted to make an experience with this species and he told me this week that the growing reduces this fault. So sometimes there is a chance for such a baby with a defect.

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

This year we had a baby with a hunchback. But it did not hinder the shoulder or the pelvis belt and so it could climb. Its shooting was good but it grows a little bit slower than its siblings.
But I found someone, who wanted to make an experience with this species and he told me this week that the growing reduces this fault. So sometimes there is a chance for such a baby with a defect.

Wow that's amazing that a deformed Parsons actually hatched out! Parsons in captivity normally have enough problems hatching normally. Neat pictures and documentation thanks for sharing.

Jeremy

 

[Canny Chams]

oh lord, i had a couple parsons, the hatchrate is so low. one of mine ended up with 90 percent of them not hatching, I was more of a panther and veiled guy and ended up selling my parsons, but they were an interesting experiance.

 

[BocaJan]

I had a brother and sister 8 month old veiled mate. It was unfortunate and my fault they got together, but the female produced eggs and I hatched the out. The entire clutch had eye problems, either the eyes weren't open, were slits, or I believe the baby was blind. The clutch all died by 1 month as they were unable to shoot at food. It was sad and I maintain much better control of my animals now, having a male and female room. No more accidents.

 

[Pilotman800]

I had a brother and sister 8 month old veiled mate. It was unfortunate and my fault they got together, but the female produced eggs and I hatched the out. The entire clutch had eye problems, either the eyes weren't open, were slits, or I believe the baby was blind. The clutch all died by 1 month as they were unable to shoot at food. It was sad and I maintain much better control of my animals now, having a male and female room. No more accidents.

That's honestly sad to hear. Poor little things.

 

[Ferdy Timmerman]

Interesting thread!

I have two experiences to share. The first one is a baby T. sternfeldi that I had seven years ago. It was CB and from a clutch of about six babies in total. Its siblings were normal, but this one had something that looked like a small blister on top of its head. I believe it kind of came from inside the skull. When I touched it, the chameleon would show stress, open its mouth etc. so I just left it there. I didn't know what to do about it, but figured the chameleon was way to small to do anything anyway. Besides, this clutch was unfortunately born during a very hot period in summer and none of the babies survived (even though I had AC). Maybe the heat caused the female to give birth early, but then again, only one baby had a defect.

The second defect was around that same time, maybe a year later. A friend of mine called me on the phone and asked if I was interested in incubating a clutch of bearded dragon eggs. I went to her place to pick up the eggs, but they had already been burried in the dry sand about a week before. In total there were eleven eggs, of which four couldn't be saved anymore. I took the other seven and placed them in pretty wet vermiculite, since all of them showed signs of dehydration. I didn't expect any good from those eggs, so I only checked them after about 70 days. To my surprise, four eggs looked great and were huge! After ± 90 days all four hatched, three were perfectly normal, but the fourth had some extra toes... On both hind feet, instead of having a 'thumb', it had another four toes. So it had eight toes on both hind feet. Pretty strange to look at, but the animal didn't seem to be bothered by it. It could walk and looked perfectly healthy.

I probably have a photo of that sternfeldi somewhere, but I don't think I photographed the bearded dragon. In case I find it, I'll upload it.


Edit: I found one photo of the sternfeldi. It's not particularly high quality, but here it is:

 

[kinyonga]

I've seen something like that T. sternfeldi bubblehead before...but I can't remember what species it was. I think there were a few in the clutch that started out like that and then the head healed somehow. Wish I could remember.

 

[Synapse]

This year we had a baby with a hunchback. But it did not hinder the shoulder or the pelvis belt and so it could climb. Its shooting was good but it grows a little bit slower than its siblings.
But I found someone, who wanted to make an experience with this species and he told me this week that the growing reduces this fault. So sometimes there is a chance for such a baby with a defect.

If this thing ever reaches full size it would be an interesting looking parson's!

 

[Chris Anderson]

Thanks for all the additional observations, everyone. I'd be very curious to see a photo of the parsonii now that its older!

Chris

 

[nixon2]

Hello chamfriends.
I´m the guy who gets the parson from rantotro.
i´m trying to make some pictures from the little parson and uploade it here...

Sorry my english is not so good, i´m trying to make the best of it

 

[okiroo]

Hello chamfriends.
I´m the guy who gets the parson from rantotro.
i´m trying to make some pictures from the little parson and uploade it here...

Sorry my english is not so good, i´m trying to make the best of it

you seem to speak english very well were excited about the photos!