What would be a sick breed with a Faly?

I admit to half-a$$ing the proper nomenclature quite often. I've certainly got a good enough background to get it right. It's just that the italics buttons are on the ADVANCED tab, which is something I just do't feel like doing all the time.

Furthermore, an extra apotrophe, while significant, is just to worth the effort in all situations.
 
Eric Adrignola said:
I admit to half-a$$ing the proper nomenclature quite often. I've certainly got a good enough background to get it right. It's just that the italics buttons are on the ADVANCED tab, which is something I just do't feel like doing all the time.

Furthermore, an extra apotrophe, while significant, is just to worth the effort in all situations.
Click to expand...

Well... you know, you could always underline them instead... wait :p
 
Why not do a pure Nosy Faly breeding and a clutch of N. Faly and Ambanja type crosses, if that's what makes you happy? Sure, you may not have the easiest time getting retail market price for them, but there are a number of large online vendors who'll buy up a clutch of crosses and then sell them as such.

They're your animals. Your babies (pure or not) will never go "back" to Madagascar. I say do what makes you happy.
 
wow. lots of people hostile towards crosses!

I personally have nothing against hybrids, so long as the buyer knows they are getting a hybrid not a "pure" local

I have seen very beautiful crosses but ZERO ugly ones.

That said, I think in this case you're much better off trying to find a female of the same local. There will be much greater demand for the offspring.
 
Eric Adrignola said:
While I disagree with Chris about the principles of cross breding panther locales, I would say it's not a right/wrong thing in this case. It would be downright stupid. They are a very rare form in captivity, and should be established more before you go on and do something like that.

Fact is, most crosses are ugly. All of them, in fact, when first crosses, are not as nice as the natural locales. Selective forces have shaped their coloration for a very long time.

Crossing them WILL result in interesting and beautiful color variations, in time, but that's the key.

It will take lots of time, lots of crosses, lots of selection and lots of ugly babies before you get something that looks as nice as one of the natual locales.

If you were to be sure they didn't get mixed up with natural locales, then go at it. But it is going to be a long long time, and a lot of money, before ou come up with a line of babies that is worth propagating.

The Kammers have some that are up there, but look at how much they have been crossed - the nice ones have 3-4 locales mixed in. That shows how much time and how many corsses were needed to result in an animal like that.

If selective breeding can turn leopard geckos into what they are now, it could make many more panther varieties than exist in nature. That's one of the motivating factors behind such crosses. Another one is one-time breeders, who do it for the heck of it, and then have a bunch of ugly little babies to sell. And the REAL problem, which woudl piss me off, is when they see their 30, ugly little babies crawling around, and can't sell them for more than $20... and look at the price of pure females... and then you have yourself a chain reaction of genetic frustration that may never end.

One person making a "little lie" (they are, after all, HALF ambilobe...) could mess up the bloodline of thousands of chameleons in a few years time.

You hatch out a mixed clutch, and you will be greatly tempted to sell the females as pure. Who the hell wants a mixed female? Not many people.
Click to expand...
eric i couldn't agree with you more well put.
 
ciafardo 4 I hope you meant that to be a humourous comment?

Surely if someone can stand on a soap box about their dislike of hybrids, or their dislike of glass enclosures, or their feelings about vitamin A, or whatever, then someone is equally entitled to speak to their feelings about inaccurate naming and poor grammar?
 
I meant the apostrophe is NOT worth the effort. I always hit Shift and end up with " instead, then I have to hit backspace... I save it for work that I intend to publish (well, I am planning on re-editing my veiled care"sheet". It's ~20 pages, so it takes time.) and school. I get enough technical and "scientifically accurate" nit-picking in work (before I was laid off) and school (now that I am laid off).

[It's funny how easy this stuff (biology, I'm taking a microbiology course now) is now - not because I've got a degree, but because I have actually been applying this stuff in real life situations. So much easier to understand the workings and classifications of microbes when you spent over 2 years learning how to defeat them going in, and out of, the human body.]

That said, I think it should be clear to the people on this forum that we are not being jerks when we correct you on stuff such as proper nomenclature, classification, terminology, etc. Most of us are real-life nerds - science nerds - and we will behave as such.
It does not mean we're weird (doesn't mean some of them are not weird, either!).
It doesnt' mean we're arrogant and unfriendly.
It is just what we do - and people like us despise the dissemination of misinformation, ignorance and incorrect falsehoods.
Correcting people in school labeled us as know it alls - they thought we were showing off. It's not that.

The simple fact is that people like us just really like to inform, educate and teach. We just don't pass up an oppurtunity to do so. Bad part is often, through the internet, this comes across as arrogance, or it seems like we're talking down to people. It is not so.

People that study this stuff take it very seriously, and it's good general knowledge to have.
 
Chris Anderson said:
You'd keep an entire clutch of 20-30 hybrids for yourself? Chameleons don't just have one baby at a time, they lay clutches that can be quite large.

Chris
Click to expand...

The taboo of crossing seems to be age-old and never fails to strike a nerve on both ends of the argument. I love how people can assume that someone is uneducated in the area of pardalis breeding, simply because they choose to breed their own morphs. Now don't get me wrong, crossing localities have never been my cup of tea and I believe in preserving locality phenotypes, both with my panthers and my chondro-pythons, however, I don't think that people should be able to make morphs if they choose. Grant it, I think making morph offspring with a faly is indeed a complete waste, mainly due to the rarity and sheer beauty of this locale, but if this is what the breeder wants to do, it should be their own prerogative. Because a majority of people seem to prefer pure-bloodlines, I don't think pardalis chameleons will ever be in danger of loosing their original locality phenotypes. Morphs simply don't seem to sell, so people who are going to be spending big bucks on panthers are usually after the "pure" localities. If not many people are buying morphs, the majority of people creating morphs are probably going to be breeding for their own fulfillment, rather then to "pollute the gene pool" of the hobby. I encourage anyone who is in the herp hobby to read Maxwell's chapter on locality in his book The More Complete Chondro . It definitely enlightens the true meaning of the word "locality". Thats just my opinion anyways.

-Cala-
 
What happens to all the females from this cross breeding ? Is the breeder going to run a background check on the buyer our is he going to off load a bunch of chameleons that nobody wants for half price and who knows where they go from there. A panther can conceivably have well over a hundred offspring in a year that's alot of fulfillment over the span of her life. That is more like gene polluting then self fulfillment.
 
Dean I totally agree.
It's not so much about cross locale breeding, it's about where those babies end up and if they are bred. There are a lot of people who breed simply for the money and just because you are honest about them being crosses doesn't mean the next person will be. Let's say you unload 20 babies to a wholesaler who sells them as pure. That is a lot of female crosses who are then bred with who knows what, and sold as pure again. That is how things become muttled. We only breed pure and are very particular with color and lineage, but to each his own.

How many stories have I heard just in the past month of certain "online" wholesalers selling one thing as another. And I'm referring to things as simple as females being sold as males, not even just crosses as pures. Just my 2 cents.

Lisa
 
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That's why I try to only buy my chameleons from people that don't cross breed my way of boycotting the people that do.
 
There should be several Nosy Faly for sale in the next month. I have already got 1 shipment of WC in and will be getting another one in soon. Also as Dean said he will have some CH for sale soon. I would just wait if it were me.
 
Not that it'll make much difference, but I agree that keeping locales true to their origins is best.

That said, I LOVE some of the Kammer's hybrids. There are enough established large-scale panther breeders in the hobby that there will be decently pure lines for many years to come, and enough of us 'true blooders' who will keep it that way, so for the common hobbiest who wants to dabble in making some seriously amazing looking panthers, I think mixing locales isn't that big of a deal.

The featured hybrid on chameleonsonly.com is just amazing.

As long as there is always access to pure-breeds, I'm happy. Thanks to people like the Kammer's and Screameleons, there will always be true locales, so I really don't see crossing as a problem.

The idea, in my view, is to keep conservation vs progress in a healthy balance.
 
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