What causes prolapse?

[Supergirl]

I am wondering if theres anything that causes it or is it usually accidental fluke? Are there ways of preventing it? Today I had a major scare with Leonidas, he looked like he was trying to poop (could see the area near his vent and tail moving) and then low and behold his hemipene thingie came out I freaked out and was about to get him and dunk him in some cold water (as I've read here that it can help them get it back in) My hubby told me to calm down.. and before I could even get to the door of his enclosure, he put junk back inside his vent *whew* Am I being overly paranoid? Is it normal for chams to expose their stuff occasionally or is this a bad sign

 

[Olimpia]

Lol totally normal. They are boys after all, you should see the amount of sperm plugs I have to get off my branches... Both of my panthers regularly have a hemipene out and rub their junk on branches until (lucky) me can clean it up. It's normal for them to pull them out every once in a while, don't worry.

If you see it out for more than a while, then you might need to intervene. In Dr. Alfonso's blog about prolapses he states that the causes are really poorly understood. No one really knows why chameleons will get intestinal prolapses, but the best reasoning is it is stress related. Stress, we obviously try to minimize as much as possible anyway. But sometimes they suffer from stress in really subtle ways, and it's hard to detect. With hemepene prolapses, I personally think that maybe while trying to get a spermplug out they might rub a branch too hard and this causes swelling. Then maybe it's painful or difficult to retract it, but his is just my theory. I don't know if it's valid or not.

But yes, if you ever do think you've got a case of it then get some cold sugar water and some water-based lube or KY Jelly ready.

 

[tkilgour]

Over feeding is a cause.

 

[kinyonga]

As long as he puts his "junk" away shortly after he lets it "all hang out" its normal. If it stays out for hours, then you need to keep it moist and get to a vet.

An intestinal prolapse can be more of a concern and more of an emergency IMHO because it needs to be put back as quickly as possible....and it can recur.

If it were an intestinal prolapse overfeeding could be a cause...but I've never heard of it causing a hemipene prolapse. Nutritional imbalances are a different matter.

 

[Supergirl]

Over feeding is a cause.

Oh no... I hope I'm not overfeeding him He's a 4 month old Ambilobe.. but he's pretty big (was over 8in last I measured him, that was about a week ago) We offer feeders until he doesn't want anymore. Switching between crickets & dubias (as daily staples) and super worms (as treats) 15-20 medium crickets (1/2-3/4") or 2-3 medium dubias (1/2-3/4")... and then 2-4 super worms every other day or so. Do you think this is too much

 

[Supergirl]

As long as he puts his "junk" away shortly after he lets it "all hang out" its normal. If it stays out for hours, then you need to keep it moist and get to a vet.

An intestinal prolapse can be more of a concern and more of an emergency IMHO because it needs to be put back as quickly as possible....and it can recur.

If it were an intestinal prolapse overfeeding could be a cause...but I've never heard of it causing a hemipene prolapse. Nutritional imbalances are a different matter.

How can I tell whether its intestinal or hemipene? It just looked pink, so I knew that it something more than poop or a sperm plug.. I just assumed it was his hemipene.. whatever it was he put it back in within a few seconds.. it wasn't out long, just long enough to make me freak out! These guys are really bad for my nerves!!!

 

[Olimpia]

Oops, correct. I forgot diet as a cause! Also egg laying is a cause as well, but in females. So no worries there.

If you search for hemipene images, you can familiarize yourself with what they look like so you know for the future. The hemipene looks like, well, a little pink penis thing. It will be more cylindrical, until the tip, which they can flay out as I've seen in photos. An intestinal prolapse should be more blobby, more just a bit of mass sticking out. I couldn't describe it to you, but photos will help you more than anything.

Here's an intestinal prolapse on a very young Meller's cham.

Edit- I guess I've seen different prolapses than Kinyonga! Regardless, look up photos of prolapses and familiarize yourself with what each one looks like. It'll be very useful.

 

[kinyonga]

Intestinal prolapse looks a bit like a sausage...hemipene is like this...
http://web.archive.org/web/20060310030242/http://adcham.com/html/veterinary/vet-hemipenal-pare.html

 

[Chameleon Company]

Over feeding is a cause.

I'm gonna disagree. Can you site any reference to this ? That establishes what over-feeding is ? And then how it causes a hemi-penal proplapse.

In all my years, and thouseands of chameleon interactions, I have never seen anything that supports your claim. Zip. Nada.

Show me. Thanks.

 

[Chameleon Company]

How can I tell whether its intestinal or hemipene? It just looked pink, so I knew that it something more than poop or a sperm plug.. I just assumed it was his hemipene.. whatever it was he put it back in within a few seconds.. it wasn't out long, just long enough to make me freak out! These guys are really bad for my nerves!!!

Hemi-pene prolapses look pink. Like a tulip. They are not uncommon in adolescent male chameleons. Usually remedy themselves, but also fairly easy to assist with cool water and rinsing, and powdered sugar if need be.

Cloacal prolapses are scarlet red. Look like a small bubble usually. Not common. Almost always fatal.

 

[Supergirl]

Hemi-pene prolapses lok pink. Like a tulip. They are not uncommon in adolescent male chameleons. Usually remedy themselves, but also failrly easy to assist on with cool water and rinsing, and powdered sugar if need be.

Cloacal prolapses are scarlet red. Look like a small bubble usually. Not common. Almost always fatal.

So if it is an intestinal prolapse, is there usually blood involved? Is that what makes it scarlet red??

 

[Chameleon Company]

So if it is an intestinal prolapse, is there usually blood involved? Is that what makes it scarlet red??

If by "blood", you mean bleeding, then "no", it usually will not be bleeding. But the lining of the cloaca, sometimes referred to as an "intestinal prolapse" is not meant to be external, and is full of micro veins and arteries, thus the scarlet red color.

Hemipenes are meant to be out, just not flashed like they often are. As mentioned by others, the color difference is pink and red. Scarlet red. Its almost night and day. You will know the worse when you see it. Hopefully you never do.

Forgive me. But to put it in relevent terms. He's a teenage male. He imagined a pretty girl with no clothes on.

He pitched a tent.

 

[Supergirl]

If by "blood", you mean bleeding, then "no", it usually will not be bleeding. But the lining of the cloaca, sometimes referred to as an "intestinal prolapse" is not meant to be external, and is full of micro veins and arteries, thus the scarlet red color.

Hemipenes are meant to be out, just not flashed like they often are. As mentioned by others, the color difference is pink and red. Scarlet red. Its almost night and day. You will know the worse when you see it. Hopefully you never do.

Forgive me. But to put it in relevent terms. He's a teenage male. He imagined a pretty girl with no clothes on.

He pitched a tent.

LMAO @ pitched a tent! I understand, he's a young male and easily excited, but my goodness he is going to give me a heart attack

 

[tkilgour]

Jim, maybe I should have been more clear. I am not trying to spread mis-information, but I simply read her title "What causes prolapse?". Over feeding may not cause hemi-penal prolapse. However, over feeding can cause intestinal prolapse. Source via Dr. Laura Arington, DVM

Kinyonga also agrees per her quote "If it were an intestinal prolapse overfeeding could be a cause...but I've never heard of it causing a hemipene prolapse. Nutritional imbalances are a different matter. "

I'm gonna disagree. Can you site any reference to this ? That establishes what over-feeding is ? And then how it causes a hemi-penal proplapse.

In all my years, and thouseands of chameleon interactions, I have never seen anything that supports your claim. Zip. Nada.

Show me. Thanks.

 

[Chameleon Company]

Jim, maybe I should have been more clear. I am not trying to spread mis-information, but I simply read her title "What causes prolapse?". Over feeding may not cause hemi-penal prolapse. However, over feeding can cause intestinal prolapse. Source via Dr. Laura Arington, DVM

Kinyonga also agrees per her quote "If it were an intestinal prolapse overfeeding could be a cause...but I've never heard of it causing a hemipene prolapse. Nutritional imbalances are a different matter. "

Tom. Here is the problem. Actually several. You drop a name, but with no link or explanation. As I asked earlier, you need to define " over-feeding" if it is to be cited as a cause. Is it an imbalance of food offered ? An offering of food not natural to the chameleon ? Too much supplementation ? Or is anyone here claiming that it is just letting the animal graze to its heart's content, but that such has issues ?

For folks to say "it could be a cause", without a good basis or explanation, is the stuff of forum BS run amuck. Stars being out-of-line could be a cause too, but unless I can quantify that in a way that a hobbyist can work with, I have said nothing of any value.

Sorry folks, but such unsubstantiated claims just are not good enough, and without further explanation, is the stuff of gobble-dy-gook.

 

[Chameleon Company]

LMAO @ pitched a tent! I understand, he's a young male and easily excited, but my goodness he is going to give me a heart attack

LOL ... got you laughing ! For the record, hemipenal prolapses can break-bad on occasion. That is where keeping it rinsed off, and possibly a dusting of powdered sugar to create a bit of a reverse osmotic effect (it works), can help to keep your male chameleon singing like Randy Travis, instead of Michael Jackson.

 

[Olimpia]

Decided to go see what I could find about overfeeding in the context of prolapses and I see some info that seems to make sense. More than anything it seems to have to do with constipation, stool that is too large to pass, etc. They may not be scientific journals, but it's a place to start I suppose. I'm not saying it's definitive evidence, but overfeeding or powerfeeding seems to be blamed for prolapses quite often.

Hand-rearing kittens

The longer faeces remains in the colon, the more water is reabsorbed from it and the drier and harder it becomes. This in turn makes it harder to expel the motion. Build-up of faeces in the rectum and colon can be toxic. A constipated kitten may have a hard, distended or tender abdomen. If it strains to defecate this can cause prolapse of the anus. -http://www.messybeast.com/handrear.htm

Anal prolapses in pigs:

Prolapse originates from abdominal pressure, which forces a breakdown of the naturally weak pelvic muscles... Pigs have a tendency to over-eat, which causes abnormal fermentation in their large bowel; so feed them only what they need and do not try to satisfy their appetites. Feeding high-density or high-starch diets to obtain fast growth in pigs can produce the same effects as over-feeding. Rectal prolapse can be caused by grain contaminated with mycotoxins and high doses of certain antibiotics. Some antibiotics cause the lining of the rectum to swell, producing prolapse. Even a rapid change in diet can cause this condition. - http://www.ehow.com/info_8765295_protruding-rectum-pigs.html#ixzz1bf4jbFt7

Vaginal prolapses in sheep:

• FEEDING: Flocks that tend to overfed and offered a variety of feed stuffs, such as hay and turnips and concentrate feed and licks, tend to have more cases of prolapse than flocks with feeding targeted to the requirements of different classes of ewe. Flocks that have many cases of vaginal prolapse tend to have many ewes that can be classified as fat (condition score over 3.5). This is an indicator of overfeeding, as it is not usually the fat [Me: Not sure if this is a typo, as it doesn't seem to make sense] ewes that are affected by vaginal prolapse. - http://www.farmersguardian.com/prolapse-%96-combating-the-condition/6182.article

A high or intermediate (1 to 3 per cent) prevalence of vaginal prolapse was found in three of the four flocks managed as a single group and these three flocks were fed on an unrestricted basis. Body condition scoring and beta-hydroxybutyrate estimation confirmed that ewes in these flocks were overfed. - http://veterinaryrecord.bmj.com/content/128/9/204.abstract

This last one is a journal, but I can't access the whole article on my home network. I'd have to be on campus to have access to the whole thing, so I don't know what else it says.

 

[kinyonga]

I said "overfeeding could be a cause" because there are other things that could cause it too. One source of that information was a vet working with the Toronto Zoo and the OVC in a personal communication with her.

Too clarify what is meant by overfeeding...it means feeding the chameleon more than it needs.

Photos of prolapses...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/olatheanimalhospital/4566205963/
http://www.herpvetdirectory.com/ind...mgallery&Itemid=475&func=viewcategory&catid=2


(BTW...overfeeding in the dictionary is defined as "feeding excessively"....not as you mentioned an imbalance of food offered or an offering of food not natural to the chameleon or too much supplementation.)

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

For folks to say "it could be a cause", without a good basis or explanation, is the stuff of forum BS run amuck.

Sorry folks, but such unsubstantiated claims just are not good enough, and without further explanation, is the stuff of gobble-dy-gook.

This is a subject that has not been well studied by anyone and the causes are still mostly unknown. The speculation that over-feeding (as in feeding over the amount an animal needs) can contribute to intestinal prolapse is high on the list by the experts. Do you really need "over-feeding" to be defined? I think that one is fairly self explanatory. Some parasites are a common cause in mammals but that link hasn't really been made in reptiles. Stress is a likely contributer as well. But there is no one thing that has been identified. For that reason anyone saying "this is definitely a cause" would be unsubstantiated BS. Right now you are implying anyone with a theory is full of it, but I don't see you offering a whole lot of insight on the matter yourself besides shutting everyone else down.

All that can be done at this point is recognizing trends and extrapolating from other species or likely causes. I think it is very reasonable that a large dense meal with some degree of dehydration (which is all too common and practically expected with captive reptiles) would make an animal strain to defecate. Excessive straining can potentially cause intestinal prolapse. Do I have a numerical amount of a particular type of feeder to give to substantiate my theory? No. No one does, because it hasn't been studied well.

As far as hemipene prolapses, I think even less is known about what may trigger those.

 

[kinyonga]

Causes of hemipene prolapses....
According to SEAVS...hemipene prolapse can be a sign of a vitamin A deficiency...
http://www.seavs.com/lizards/leopardgeckos.html


Causes of intestinal prolapses...
According to this site...Dr. Todd Eric Driggers....when a chameleon has MBD it can result in a prolapse...
http://aeacarizona.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=XX(117)&Itemid=58

"Parasites and stress are 2 potential causes that are high on my list" and..."When I was breeding Panther chameleons I very rarely see a prolapse and when I did, it was always in females that laid a large clutch"...from this site of Dr. Ivan Alfonso....
http://www.ivanalfonso.com/