What am I? Diego Suarez?

[Chameleons Northwest]

We purchased this guy off Craigslist. The owners got him 8 months ago at the Northwest Captive Breeders Expo in Washington State. They cannot remember which dealer sold him, but think the cham is an Ambilobe or Sambava. It didn't look like it to me, but I am new to all this Morph region stuff.

Jim of Chameleon Company posted an excellent response on my other open thread, and so I copied it here. What he said makes a lot of sense. Don't think he'd mind me quoting him since he just posted this on another open thread. Forgive the copied postings, but thought this question deserved its own thread. The thread this was on is more about a sick female we are rehabbing and about housing 2 chams together.

First 3 photos are his normal colors. They are neon blue, green, with maroon bars and dots. He is more neon blue in person than the camera shows. Even indoors the blue shows up more in person. His sleeping background colors are shown in the last 2 photos- mint green to butter yellow with red to orangey-red bars and flecks. He fired up at me a tiny bit the other evening, and his gular and belly began to turn yellow.

Regarding the male, as debated in other threads, assigning a specific locale without being able to trace it back to where it was caught, or its parents, etc, is a very inexact science. Some locales are quite definitive, such as Nosy Be, as it has finite borders and therefore no interaction with neighboring regions. Others, such as Ambilobe, are bled into, and then bleed out to, other variations that eventually become less Ambilobe and more something else. It often comes down to assigning a Locale that you will have to make the least effort convincing others as to its veracity. Having handled approximately 2000 imported males right off the boat, I offer the following, in consideration of suggestions made earlier in the thread, from most likely to have to make efforts to convince others, to least likely, IMMHO:

1) Ambanja: Nope. Too much of a stretch.

2) Sambava region : Possible, but not the best match. It is on the edge of that bell curve at best.

3) Red bar Ambilobe: A slight stretch as well. In explanation, in the early days of Ambilobe import (2001-2003) the biggest distinction in what was coming in labeled Ambilobe was whether there was blue/turquoise in the bars, or they were just variations of red. Backgrounds could vary, and also change based on mood, season, etc (ie some backgrounds can go from 90% red to 90% yellow over a period of weeks, while some stay red). As one heads north out of Ambilobe, into a huge area where specimens are often referred to as Diego's (after the old name of the northernmost town, Diego Suarez), the chameleons became variations of red and green, firing up yellow background in many specimens. But Ambilobe usually meant another $50 boost to the selling price, and "red bar Ambilobe" stuck as a label for awhile. Its also a valid label, as if it was picked from a tree 75 miles from Ambilobe, its still a further distance to old Diego Suarez. One other characterisitic that disappears as you move away from Ambilobe is that red-orange-pink on the dorsal spikes, and often the entire dorsal ridge area. A majority of Ambilobes have some of this on virtually every spike. The strongest Ambanja and Diego variations do not. There is also all the area in between, geographically and in appearance of the chameleons, where specimens do not fit our neat definitions.

4) Diego: While this animal is potentially of mixed blood if its origins were CBB (for instance, a strong Diego crossed with a weak Ambilobe, or Sambava), it best fits under the bell curve of Diegos that I have seen. Its a big region, and we are seeing some marketing trying to coin mini-locales from the area, such as Joffreville.

Good luck with all.

 

[PardalisGirl]

Hard to argue with that

Hey Gesangs.....he is a very healthy and sturdy looking boy. Have you got a name for him yet? It will be interesting to see what his "normal" colors are a month from now when he is totally settled in his new home. I think he will become even more beautiful when he settles in. Stress colors (not to be confused with fired up colors) are never as nice looking as settled in colors.

I personally would defer to Jim's assessment of his origin. It would be pretty hard to argue with someone who has actually seen and handled that many imports over time. There is just no substitute for that kind of experience. As many adults as I have, most of which were wild caught, I feel totally inadequate in identifying the origin of them. I see enough variation in my own wild caught locales to realize that things don't fall into neat categories. I've got a couple of wild caught Panthers that mystify me.

Glad to hear the female is doing better Catherine

 

[westcoastchameleons]

That doent look like a Diego from what ive seen. I see what Jim was saying before about the 2 colors, because my Diego looked the same (2 colors). However, your boy has more then that as you said in a previous post.

Im unsure of what his locale would be...I really doubt he is Diego though.

However, I would compare him to this...Which I origionally remembered being an Ambanja, but in actuallity he isnt. vvv

http://chameleonsonly.com/Pictures/Pippin - 4.JPG


-Jake


PS: Glad about your girl as well

 

[Chameleons Northwest]

Update- Jake I just noticed that the speckle pattern on the barring is identical between the 2 animals.

Jake- he almost looks like the same animal as Pippin. The blue lateral stripe can be like a fingerprint, each cham's is a little bit different. The lateral stripe on my guy pretty much matches the lateral stripe on Pippin. Wonder if Kammerflage still has him? They were not at the show, but may have sold him to someone who was. It's possible, as Catherine said, that once he calms down his colors will change. Right now he has a bit more blue in the body than that cham at Kammerflage. Hhmm, wasn't really hoping for a morph cross- but he is gorgeous and healthy none the less. See, if I'd not started this thread I could have just called him a Diego Suarez and been done with it. Silly me.

 

[ToniandGizmo]

Update- Jake I just noticed that the speckle pattern on the barring is identical between the 2 animals

Jake- he almost looks like the same animal as Pippin. The blue lateral stripe can be like a fingerprint, each cham's is a little bit different. The lateral stripe on my guy pretty much matches the lateral stripe on Pippin. Wonder if Kammerflage still has him? They were not at the show, but may have sold him to someone who was. It's possible, as Catherine said, that once he calms down his colors will change. Right now he has a bit more blue in the body than that cham at Kammerflage. Hhmm, wasn't really hoping for a morph cross- but he is gorgeous and healthy none the less. See, if I'd not started this thread I could have just called him a Diego Suarez and been done with it. Silly me.

Here is a link of all the chameleons photos - you will find a picture of Pip in this link.

http://chameleonsonly.com/Pictures/

 

[Chameleons Northwest]

Here is a link of all the chameleons photos - you will find a picture of Pip in this link.

http://chameleonsonly.com/Pictures/

Thank you. I have that link, too, and just checked it. The last photo they have of Pippin was taken, or edited, in December of 2007. By then he was already up here in Washington State. His offspring look like they'll be real stunners.

We have some really nice looking chams. We had some people over Monday night. They were looking over our chams, saying Oh, that one's nice, this one's nice. Then they saw this guy and gasped. He just glows. ANd he's so big. I ought to sell him to Jake to get some money to pay for the new girl's medical bills .

 

[westcoastchameleons]

Haha.... I would...But I have no $$$$$. Once my guys and girls begin to hatch (lord willing), then I will be able to buy him

Im sure you will be pleased when your girl is fully recovered and you can look back on what you did to help her!

Jake

 

[westcoastchameleons]

I almost forgot, with all this talk about Diegos, did I mention I had a clutch of Diegos laid recently??

Cant wait to see what they produce in color! Wooooo

Jake

 

[westcoastchameleons]

Update- Jake I just noticed that the speckle pattern on the barring is identical between the 2 animals.

Jake- he almost looks like the same animal as Pippin. The blue lateral stripe can be like a fingerprint, each cham's is a little bit different. The lateral stripe on my guy pretty much matches the lateral stripe on Pippin. Wonder if Kammerflage still has him? They were not at the show, but may have sold him to someone who was. It's possible, as Catherine said, that once he calms down his colors will change. Right now he has a bit more blue in the body than that cham at Kammerflage. Hhmm, wasn't really hoping for a morph cross- but he is gorgeous and healthy none the less. See, if I'd not started this thread I could have just called him a Diego Suarez and been done with it. Silly me.

I just saw this...

Hmm...Im unsure, I have seen pippin at a show before when they brought him along, but they werent selling him then... I know them well enough, I will give em a call and ask

-Jake

 

[SoCaliSon]

Update- Jake I just noticed that the speckle pattern on the barring is identical between the 2 animals.

Jake- he almost looks like the same animal as Pippin. The blue lateral stripe can be like a fingerprint, each cham's is a little bit different. The lateral stripe on my guy pretty much matches the lateral stripe on Pippin. Wonder if Kammerflage still has him? They were not at the show, but may have sold him to someone who was. It's possible, as Catherine said, that once he calms down his colors will change. Right now he has a bit more blue in the body than that cham at Kammerflage. Hhmm, wasn't really hoping for a morph cross- but he is gorgeous and healthy none the less. See, if I'd not started this thread I could have just called him a Diego Suarez and been done with it. Silly me.

I have both the first pic of Your guy, and the pic of Pippin up (pics are the same angle)...I agree... I would have to think that these are the exact same animal. I think once he settles in like Catherine said it will be more apparent... But I keep picking small features, and they are matching up perfectly in both shots, The barring shape is identical, Pick small speckle features on the pattern and you can clearly see that these have to be the same animal. How Crazy!!! I would be willing to bet my PayCheck that you ended up getting lucky and found Pippin for sale on Craigslist. I am fixing up a side by side comparsion to point this out...gimme a couple minutes.

Good Call Jake!

 

[westcoastchameleons]

I have both the first pic of Your guy, and the pic of Pippin up (pics are the same angle)...I agree... I would have to think that these are the exact same animal. I think once he settles in like Catherine said it will be more apparent... But I keep picking small features, and they are matching up perfectly in both shots, The barring shape is identical, Pick small speckle features on the pattern and you can clearly see that these have to be the same animal. How Crazy!!! I would be willing to bet my PayCheck that you ended up getting lucky and found Pippin for sale on Craigslist. I am fixing up a side by side comparsion to point this out...gimme a couple minutes.

Good Call Jake!

Wooo, that would explain why he is still huge! Even after being with that girl in that care!
Thanks for the credit Socali!

Jake

 

[SoCaliSon]

I was going to mark up the spots that match but that makes it look bad, and mayber harder to compare. The Barring pattern is practically identical... But one of the selling factors for me here is the Light blue cheek freckles that are most visible in the Kammers shot... He has Four freckles on his cheek that would almost form a out of whack square if you conected the dots. The placement of these freckles and other extreme simialrities in the pattern tell me that these have got to be the same animal. That is too cool... I am glad you guys got him.

 

[Chameleons Northwest]

I totally agree. That's him. Thank you SoCaliSon and Jake AKA Sherlock! Well, we were wondering what to name him. Guess we'll call him Pippin. Although we should wait until Jake asks the Kammers if they still have him, and if not, when did they sell him.

I have both the first pic of Your guy, and the pic of Pippin up (pics are the same angle)...I agree... I would have to think that these are the exact same animal. I think once he settles in like Catherine said it will be more apparent... But I keep picking small features, and they are matching up perfectly in both shots, The barring shape is identical, Pick small speckle features on the pattern and you can clearly see that these have to be the same animal. How Crazy!!! I would be willing to bet my PayCheck that you ended up getting lucky and found Pippin for sale on Craigslist. I am fixing up a side by side comparsion to point this out...gimme a couple minutes.

Good Call Jake!

 

[SoCaliSon]

So for local I am going to guess....81.25% Ambanja X 18.75% Tamatave...

 

[Cainschams]

That is pretty cool and now you know what his locales are, even better. Good job guys in identifying that cham. SOOOOO what is the female fellas Maybe you can contact the kammers and see if you can figure out what she is. Good luck and I hope the lady goes on to live the rest of her life happy and as healthy as can be.

 

[Chameleons Northwest]

So for local I am going to guess....81.25% Ambanja X 18.75% Tamatave...

Hey, Jake, you and I were thinking Ambanja, so we weren't too far off. Chameleon Company did a good job considering they were trying to determine a pure locality.

Glad I started this thread. This is a good example of a few things:

1. What a guessing game locale can be when you don't have the lineage.

2. And also, what a tight little community chameleon breeders live in. It's no wonder we have to be so careful to check lineage before investing in breeding stock, so we know we are not going to breed a brother and sister, or 1st cousins, etc.

 

[Cainschams]

This gets me wondering. You say first cousins. So is it ok to breed 2nd cousins. I know that brand new blood is the best and I wouldnt plan on breeding anything related but just wondering.

 

[Chameleons Northwest]

This gets me wondering. You say first cousins. So is it ok to breed 2nd cousins. I know that brand new blood is the best and I wouldnt plan on breeding anything related but just wondering.

Well, just a figure of speech, really. Sorry about that. I think most people, unless they are trying to accentuate a certain attribute of a specific bloodline, will try to mate unrelated animals.

 

[Chameleons Northwest]

So for local I am going to guess....81.25% Ambanja X 18.75% Tamatave...

Ha, that was a tough one SoCaliSon! You win the gravid Parson's! Just PM Chris for details.

 

[SoCaliSon]

So are you going to keep the name "Pippin" ...Or rename him?

EDIT: I still can't get over the fact that you found part of the Kammers "Breeding Colony" for sale on Craigslist from a private party...That has to be the best find yet!