Werner babies update -- not good

[Ryan Jarosek]

I would say if you can get em past the first 2wks thats the critical stage. At least with other species Ive raised from the egg. Most of the weaker individuals usually perish in the first week or so. Ive never had werners though so Im going by panthers and veileds.

They are over the risk at about 4 months of age. They can look like they are doing well and just start dropping dead.

My one and only recommendation : Start putting them out in the cold at night. Even if it drops to 45f or so. I am leaning toward not enough of a temperature drop is allowed at night. I would shoot for at least 20 f cooler than their daily cool spot. 55-60 ideal. More humidity would help as well.

Forgive me if I didn't read all this thread but if you have them in bins I would get them in screen cages with lots of plants. All of them together if you need to. Separating them into containers will not help much.

IMO what you need to do is , Cold at night, Screen ventilation, more humidity and LESS FOOD. I would only feed them every other day even as babies. Make sure there isn't too much supplementation. I really don't think it has much to do with moms health or being a WC etc but what do I know. I have had some success with this method on other live bearers. Mostly with sternfeldi only because I have had the opertunity to play with multiple clutches born at the same time using different methods.

 

[AB EskimoC]

I'll keep my fingers crossed for the last remaining and hope that they find the will to make it..It must be soooo hard to watch the little things expire for it seems no reason. I really feel for you.

That was a righteous way of putting it. I feel the same way. I hope that the rest of them make it, and if not all, that you have a good clutch never the less that does. : /

 

[Texas Panther Man]

Im glad someone with more exp with montanes spoke up. Im not experienced with them. Hope you can get em past that 4 month mark Lisa.

 

[Bokaru]

I'm really sorry to hear that your babies are not doing well. I will keep my fingers crossed for you.

 

[Trace]

Unlike Ryan, I had more success with my werneri if I raised them in individually in either tubs or screen cages. I agree that sternfeldi and ellioti can be raised in groups as the adults are generally found in close proximity to each other in the wild (more social species like melleri maybe?) but not so much the Werners. The werneri are a pretty shy and somewhat aggressive species - at least gravid females are! The sternfeldi, ellioti and even bitaeniatus babies are fairly hardy in comparison to such species as the werneri and merumontanus.

I do agree with the cool nights and high humidity aspect. I don't know how many times I've touted this for all growing montanes. I know you are in Winnipeg but even a few hours of natural UV is beneficial to growing werneri. Can you get them out for an hour or so a day?

Honestly, my first thought when I saw your other thread about the her giving birth was: 'wow that's late in the year'. I don't know if that makes a difference but all my werneri give birth in August or September. Also the fact that they didn't start eating right away made me wonder about the general health of the litter. These guys are born eating.

Don't beat yourself up about it. Those babies were not meant to be.

Trace

 

[lisa h]

Thanks Trace. They are seperate, as per your recommendations, although they were all in a bin together for about the first 24 hours. I will get them outside! We are at about 13-15 degrees during the day (sunny for the upcoming week), and we go down to about 4 for the night. Based on this, when do you think they should be in (and out)? I'm willing to do anything for these little guys.

I will say that they are not eating machines. I never see anyone hunting (although I did see a poop from one that died), and I have LOTS of fruitflies in there. I'm getting pinheads later this week, and hope that someone is alive to eat them. Humidity is high.

Again, clue me in a bit more about times they should be outdoors and in what (ie, still the bin with them seperated), and I'll get on that right away. I'm home all day most days, so I can do whatever schedule you recommend.

Thanks for all the help and words of encouragement everyone!

 

[lisa h]

Re: the 4 month mark. Count with me guys: only 3 months 3 1/2 weeks to go
No pressure.

 

[Trace]

I don't know if it will help necessarily, I think you've got an unhealthy litter from the get go, but it certainly won't hurt to get them out into the sun. If it were me I'd put them out around lunchhour when it's the warmest for an hour or two.

I've left healthy adult werneri outside when it's dropped into the single digits knowing it would warm up the next day but I wouldn't do that for the babies. We are getting frost here at night now.

Keep us posted. I really do hope some make it; the werners are one of my favourites.

 

[Ryan Jarosek]

Unlike Ryan, I had more success with my werneri if I raised them in individually in either tubs or screen cages.

Thanks trace my experience with them is 0 so I based it on what I know about other species. I wanted to stress the temps / humidity and the fact I have had more success with screen.

3 females dropped one raised inside ALL died. 1 group outside 24/7 as low as 37 f all survived 12 of them. Group 2 Moved in and out during the day to the cold night. Lost 2 of them. Group 3 : I had the same problems with the inside group as Lisa H is having with this group.

I strongly believe based on my little experiment night drop is a big factor. Just my experience with what I had to work with. I kept 20 of the 22 that I made sure had a big temperature drop at night. I am also pretty confident that feeding 3 days a week was more than enough even for the babies. They grew slow , real slow but lived.

 

[lisa h]

Thanks! I'll start that tomorrow and see what happens. I'll keep everyone updated.

 

[Ryan Jarosek]

I've left healthy adult werneri outside when it's dropped into the single digits knowing it would warm up the next day but I wouldn't do that for the babies. We are getting frost here at night now.
.

Just for the record , I moved out babies the day they were born and it dropped to 40 and was raining and cold the next day with a high of maybe 65. I would not feed on rainy days but would give them lots as soon as it dried out. .

I know I am talking sternfeldi but I really hope some of this information helps. I was really shocked by my results. So I just want to share.

 

[Trace]

Oh I know eh! It's crazy what temperature extremes some montanes can handle and not be affected by. Maybe my successes (as it were) with the werneri were because the parents were healthy LTC specimens that I cycled every year as opposed to recent imports like yours and Lisas.

I only suggest Lisa bring her babies in overnight just because they are so fragile to begin with.

 

[Ryan Jarosek]

I only suggest Lisa bring her babies in overnight just because they are so fragile to begin with.

I agree 100 %

 

[lisa h]

I wonder if there will be a temperature "shock" from coming in. Just thinking outloud here. It's pretty crisp here, even with the sun out. We've had our first frost already. Not really questionning what either of you is saying, but more just thinking out loud.

I'm also wondering if it is *possible* that some of the babies were reabsorbed? I remembered the size of her the day I got her, and she seemed to get smaller about 3 weeks before they were born. The day before the babies dropped I was telling people that she was no longer pregnant. I see now how small she is post birth, and she certainly was bigger, but not as big as she was in the beginning of August.

Just more thoughts to bounce off you guys.

 

[Trace]

Got a sunny spot out of the wind?

I've noticed that gravid females get a little thinner shortly before they birth so that isn't surprising to me. I think the babies drop a little lower into the abdomen in preparation for birth and that gives the impression of the female looking slimmer than she had been. It's another clue for the owner that birthing is imminent.

 

[lisa h]

Yes, I have a good spot.

Well it wasn't a clue for me since I didn't know LOL. Thanks for the explanation. My only clue was that she was pacing like crazy for about 3 weeks. Doing laps all over her enclosure all day. Well that's all over with. Now to try to get at least a couple of babies to make it.

If she stays healthy I would love the opportunity to get a male and try to do this better.

 

[Bokaru]

I don't know if it will help necessarily, I think you've got an unhealthy litter from the get go

Trace has got a good point, where you were saying that the cham came to you with eggs, I wouldn't be surprised if this was a big factor in the current health of the babies. With all the stress from moving that the mother went through, I could only imagine what that would do to the eggs...

I know it may seem bleak, but if you have held on to a few for this long, hopefully you can keep em' going for the next few months. Good luck!

 

[weezyboi94]

Trace has got a good point, where you were saying that the cham came to you with eggs, I wouldn't be surprised if this was a big factor in the current health of the babies. With all the stress from moving that the mother went through, I could only imagine what that would do to the eggs...

I know it may seem bleak, but if you have held on to a few for this long, hopefully you can keep em' going for the next few months. Good luck!

Werneri are live bearers meaning they do not lay eggs. They give birth to live young.

Hope the others pull through for you Lisa...I got no experience with werneri, but i raised 10 of the 14 baby sternfeldi to safety by keeping them outside during winter...winters are not that cold here with about 10-15 degree drops at night ,from the low 80's during the day. I had better luck due to almost perfect conditions... You know how it is with montanes, always gonna be tough.
Best of luck.

 

[nicholas]

Hey Lisa sorry I didn't speak up sooner! I agree with most of what Ryan said earlier. I believe a 15 - 20 degree drop is essential to getting these guys to not drop like flies. I only feed once every other day, but when I do I feed until they stop eating. I keep them in either doubles or trios in ten gallon tanks, with uvb directly on top of the tanks and a sheet over the whole setup. And as for humidity I tend to keep it at about 85 during the day and about 95 during the night. Using this method I have only lost 3 of the 19 baby clutch I had the second time and 3 of the 17 baby clutch I had the last time. I also gave NO supplementation to them what so ever. The first time I had baby Werneri I found that even gutloading seemed to cause them to take a turn for the worse. I just think this species like all montanes is maybe even a little bit more sensitive to the supplements. Ps: At night I would not even be able to see the neonates due to the amount of fog in there from the ultrasonic foggers.

 

[xanthoman]

first off let me say that i have no direct experience with any montanes other than xanths. i know everyone is going to whip all of the seperate genus issue on me, but to me its just another jacksons. i agree with the no supplementing and i also agree with the natural sun and nightdrop issues but imo, if the neonates are not doing that well, then temps below 60*seem low to me, i am also not sure i agree with humidity above 80% and i do think after 1 month that screen is better. this is just a thought, but since the neonates are too young to test, if the mom is strong enough, and cash is not an issue, you might consider having a blood panel done on the mom. imo knowing her present blood chemistry might give some clue as to what is going on with the neonates. but it could take too long for the results and i am not saying that what is going on with her blood chemistry is neccesarily what is happening with the neonates, wouldnt hurt to do fecal smears on the neonates if you have the ability to do that. kind of a long shot i know, but its all i got. personally i would keep all of the healthy ones together as long as they are not stressing each other out. since werners are not as common in captivity, it seems like more of a loss. imo, it would be hugely rewarding if you were able to keep even a couple alive through the critical stage jmo