water causing edema?

[carol5208]

I have a library of over 500 papers on chameleons so I know what you mean.

My panther and Jackson (but not my veiled) developed significant edema when I inadvertently added a lot of vitamin A to the diet by trying to use up left over parrot pellets. I noticed a significant improvement whenever they drank large amounts of water, or were in the sun a lot. Low albumin will cause edema in mammals but seems to be much less significant in reptiles.

Have to drive down from mountains so will continue when I get home...

My guy basically lives in the sun and drinks a ton of water and still has it! It seems like there is no common thread and what seems to work for one does not work for another!!!

 

[Oliviabryant]

I have a library of over 500 papers on chameleons so I know what you mean.

My panther and Jackson (but not my veiled) developed significant edema when I inadvertently added a lot of vitamin A to the diet by trying to use up left over parrot pellets. I noticed a significant improvement whenever they drank large amounts of water, or were in the sun a lot. Low albumin will cause edema in mammals but seems to be much less significant in reptiles.

Have to drive down from mountains so will continue when I get home...

The large amounts of water and heat will help because it opens the blood vessels and helps the fluid to flow and flush. I honestly don't see a better solution, i have to speculate that adding supplements will only exacerbate the issue.
I see that many do not supplement but use a leafy green high in oxolates for gut loading im thinking there is a relation between the two. I have yet to find a logical link but my brain is currently processing away!

 

[Oliviabryant]

" panther appeared to have gular edema. The vet verified through blood tests that it wasn't kidney failure but a poor Cah ratio of 1:2 instead of 2:1 likely brought on by diet (not enough calcium or too much phosphorus). He prescribed 0.1cc a day of Mylanta for a couple of weeks. The Mylanta binds-up excess phosphorus and lets it be excreted. Another blood test was done and the ratio was back to 2:1 where it should be."

Here is a rather helpful excerpt

http://chamworld.blogspot.com/2008/01/health-section-f-gout_28.html?m=1

 

[ataraxia]

Unless some are sensitive to water i dont think it is from tap or even well water. I have seen this with various species and im fairly certain it is one of two things causing it.

1. Ca/p ratio is not correct within the body.
or
2. Not keeping the cage floor/leaves clean enough with neonates causing an infection.

In the past i have been guilty of both and from time to time i would see what the picture is showing at that age. I have to learn from trial and error. Since then i make sure i have plain calcium on 90% of feedings along with a clean cage floor/vines and have not had an issue since. Also, not to freak you out. The life expectancy is 50/50 with the neonates showing these signs.

 

[Chameleopatrick]

Ferret, let's make a case study together.
Lets find ten young healthy chameleons, we will feed them the exact same diet, groupA five of the juveniles will get just calcium, while groupB will get D3 at least once a week. The only difference being the factor of D3. I will bet you 100.00 that will be the catalyst.

If you look at almost every brand of reptile vitamin, d3 has been added.

You may not be using calcium plus D3 but your vitamins probably have it.

I haven't done the case study. But I have accidentally caused the symptoms of edema, and it was always after a heavy dose of vitamins on the feeders. Always.

 

[ataraxia]

Ferret, let's make a case study together.
Lets find ten young healthy chameleons, we will feed them the exact same diet, groupA five of the juveniles will get just calcium, while groupB will get D3 at least once a week. The only difference being the factor of D3. I will bet you 100.00 that will be the catalyst.

If you look at almost every brand of reptile vitamin, d3 has been added.

You may not be using calcium plus D3 but your vitamins probably have it.

I haven't done the case study. But I have accidentally caused the symptoms of edema, and it was always after a heavy dose of vitamins on the feeders. Always.

I see you say juveniles but we have a young panther here. Do you think this is going to be the same case on neonates under 3 months? I know of breeders right now producing chameleons (veileds and panthers) that are not part of these boards using products with D3 at nearly every feeding for the first three months.

 

[juice28]

lets be real.. most of us (i am by no way a veteran but ive done my homework and tons of research) but most of us use pretty much the same things for gutloads..some fruits greens bee polon etc.. some use more ingredients than others due to availability some buy it like cricket crack etc which have all been said to be great for what theyre for. its on every care sheet and on just about every breeder website along wit forum posts, ezines etc

so hypothetically speaking.. if 10 people have 10 chams and do the same basic thing and follow the same guidelines and person 6 and 8 have 4 chams with gular edema..is it the gutload...i cant really say yes or no because my cham is too small to eat anything but foods the size of a FF or a tiny pinhead cricket(which i dont have constant access to).. i have 2 FF cultures one from LLL and one of the standard common jar type..from timberline..same kind most local pet stores carry so if it was the contents of the culture..causing the FF to be.."bad" for health..there should be tons of more people with the same issue.

This may differ from people with sub adult and adult chams who make their gutloads or buy them premixed..but neither my adult male or sub adult female veileds have gular edema.. just the baby..not saying they cant develop it...but as of now they are fine but they are much older and their systems are way more sturdy and developed, my female does have the white crystals around her nostrils periodically which is excretion of minerals, something common in lizards but do new born Chams have the same level or internal regulation that an adult does? probably not as they are still developing inside and out..just my opinion..

.but im still no closer to an answer for my question and solution for my problem except...try using bottled water, which isnt bad advice and i will switch up the water for her but one person said that...we just keep hearing, "its the vitamins" change up the dusting, stop using them etc...and the post is about edema but not using any supplements...Yes vitamin overuse can cause it so adjusting that part has been documented and stated many times...what about when thats not a facor is the question

 

[Oliviabryant]

I believe phosphorus and calcium levels in leafy greens being used in gutloads are a big attribute to edema
Kale - 2.4:1
Collard Greens - 14.5:1
Mustard Spinach - 7.5:1

 

[sandrachameleon]

what about beta carotene from gutload? I recall someone on here who believed their female had edema brought on by excessive carotenes from gutload (heavy on carrots etc).

 

[Chameleopatrick]

I see you say juveniles but we have a young panther here. Do you think this is going to be the same case on neonates under 3 months? I know of breeders right now producing chameleons that are not part of these boards using D3 at nearly every feeding for the first three months.

Honestly I don't know, hence a case study. Your experience and mine may differ but the only way to truly know is to test it. I have had theses terrible symptoms a few times. I could create the gular edema by Tuesday to prove my point but I'm not sacrificing my remaining blood lines.

You may disagree or need to see a case study. I'm certain excess d3 is the catalyst.

 

[Oliviabryant]

lets be real.. most of us (i am by no way a veteran but ive done my homework and tons of research) but most of us use pretty much the same things for gutloads..some fruits greens bee polon etc.. some use more ingredients than others due to availability some buy it like cricket crack etc which have all been said to be great for what theyre for. its on every care sheet and on just about every breeder website along wit forum posts, ezines etc

so hypothetically speaking.. if 10 people have 10 chams and do the same basic thing and follow the same guidelines and person 6 and 8 have 4 chams with gular edema..is it the gutload...i cant really say yes or no because my cham is too small to eat anything but foods the size of a FF or a tiny pinhead cricket(which i dont have constant access to).. i have 2 FF cultures one from LLL and one of the standard common jar type..from timberline..same kind most local pet stores carry so if it was the contents of the culture..causing the FF to be.."bad" for health..there should be tons of more people with the same issue.

This may differ from people with sub adult and adult chams who make their gutloads or buy them premixed..but neither my adult male or sub adult female veileds have gular edema.. just the baby..not saying they cant develop it...but as of now they are fine but they are much older and their systems are way more sturdy and developed, my female does have the white crystals around her nostrils periodically which is excretion of minerals, something common in lizards but do new born Chams have the same level or internal regulation that an adult does? probably not as they are still developing inside and out..just my opinion..

.but im still no closer to an answer for my question and solution for my problem except...try using bottled water, which isnt bad advice and i will switch up the water for her but one person said that...we just keep hearing, "its the vitamins" change up the dusting, stop using them etc...and the post is about edema but not using any supplements...Yes vitamin overuse can cause it so adjusting that part has been documented and stated many times...what about when thats not a facor is the question

Just because its said to be best does it mean it is, there is very little understood about most animal species. This is just what we know so far to be the best care routine. There are no hard facts on edema so you can't expect us to make a medical breakthrough ASAP on this forum, it's unfortunately trial and error. I feel everyone on here is wary of giving actual advice and it resulting in your chameleons death. Take what you can from what we say or go to a vet. It's your choice in the end

 

[Oliviabryant]

what about beta carotene from gutload? I recall someone on here who believed their female had edema brought on by excessive carotenes from gutload (heavy on carrots etc).

Great Insight!
The human body may regulate beta carotine and covert to vit A as needed but it may not be the case for reptiles and chameleons specifically. But it's also not a common use between the people who's chameleons had edema. It may certainly be a factor but I don't think it's the total issue

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

I believe phosphorus and calcium levels in leafy greens being used in gutloads are a big attribute to edema
Kale - 2.4:1
Collard Greens - 14.5:1
Mustard Spinach - 7.5:1

What exactly do you mean by this statement? The ratios listed are calcium to phosphorus so are you saying it's too much calcium?

 

[carol5208]

I still say no one really has a clue. Now if researchers were to take chameleons and use them as lab rats then maybe there could be some solid evidence by subjecting one to one thing and not the other. Basically my chameleon has been living with it for the better part of his life and he has made it to 5 years plus. Is it life threatening? Well not in my chameleon's case. Does it not look as pretty? No it doesn't. Man boobs as I call them!

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

Ferret, let's make a case study together.
Lets find ten young healthy chameleons, we will feed them the exact same diet, groupA five of the juveniles will get just calcium, while groupB will get D3 at least once a week. The only difference being the factor of D3. I will bet you 100.00 that will be the catalyst.

If you look at almost every brand of reptile vitamin, d3 has been added.

You may not be using calcium plus D3 but your vitamins probably have it.

I haven't done the case study. But I have accidentally caused the symptoms of edema, and it was always after a heavy dose of vitamins on the feeders. Always.

That's...bold. Considering most of the people starting out with chameleons only have calcium with D3 and use that multiple times a week for weeks or months on end until we correct them and do not see any evidence of edema I do not think the results will be what you're hoping for. This experiment has pretty much been performed through misinformation many times already. If D3 was the only factor we'd see it much more frequently. And since you have three cases on edema without d3 in the picture right here it makes the case that there are other factors involved.

 

[carol5208]

What exactly do you mean by this statement? The ratios listed are calcium to phosphorus so are you saying it's too much calcium?

Possible, but then why, do my other chameleons not have it when I use all of the above???

 

[Saldarya]

I have a female panther that has edema and I believe it was brought on by a primary item. Overdose of Vit A. It was suggested by a breeder to do so, which again I believe attributed.

That being said, I fed the same feeders to all of my Chams, and only she ever showed the symptoms.

My point is, some chams my be more susceptible to these slight issues than others. You may have a cham who is very sensitive to overdosing via supplementation.

It comes and goes.

In the first picture you post where you say you had just recived here, it seems you can see the start of the edema. Perhaps she came to you with the condition? If that is the case, as many here have testified to, it seems nearly impossible to get rid of it, it just varies in intensity day to day.

Clearly the water thing has you concerned. With all of the reef tanks you kept, you dont have a RO/DI? just curious, For the small amount of water you need for the one cham, it may be worth buying just a DI canister. May be cheaper than bottled water over time.

Just wanted to share my thoughts on the causes that I feel caused my issues.

Bobby

 

[juice28]

if i was expecting a medical break through ASAP id be in a laboratory not on a forum seeing if anyone else has had a similar experience...and its not that no one is giving advice but it seems like not many actually read the post, seems they they just saw edema in the title and wrote in the common.. "its the vitamins your using" response which has turned it into a debate on vitamins which is not the topic here, i appreciate all input and what you have said as well, the article you linked to was really good and informative

 

[Saldarya]

On a side note, since you have only had here a week, why do you believe that there is anything that you may have done incorrectly, to include your water. She may have had it from way before you received her.

Just curious.

 

[carol5208]

I have a female panther that has edema and I believe it was brought on by a primary item. Overdose of Vit A. It was suggested by a breeder to do so, which again I believe attributed.

That being said, I fed the same feeders to all of my Chams, and only she ever showed the symptoms.

My point is, some chams my be more susceptible to these slight issues than others. You may have a cham who is very sensitive to overdosing via supplementation.

It comes and goes.

In the first picture you post where you say you had just recived here, it seems you can see the start of the edema. Perhaps she came to you with the condition? If that is the case, as many here have testified to, it seems nearly impossible to get rid of it, it just varies in intensity day to day.

Clearly the water thing has you concerned. With all of the reef tanks you kept, you dont have a RO/DI? just curious, For the small amount of water you need for the one cham, it may be worth buying just a DI canister. May be cheaper than bottled water over time.

Just wanted to share my thoughts on the causes that I feel caused my issues.

Bobby

yes and I agree that some are more prone to developing it that others. Like humans...why do some get diabetes and some don't or cancer for that matter? If you have 5 chameleons and they are all fed the same and one gets edema...well why didn't all of them if it is a vitamin overdose or whatever.