jannb
Chameleon Enthusiast
A must read from Dr. Alfonso.
http://www.ivanalfonso.com/2011/07/vitamin-a-supplement/
http://www.ivanalfonso.com/2011/07/vitamin-a-supplement/
Vitamin A Supplements From Dr. Ivan Alfonso's Blog
- Thread starter jannb
- Start date
clarkrw3
New Member
Thanks for posting this Jann! I actually already have this product from Repashy. My only concern is that I have been told that a good dose for Vit A in possibly deficient cham's is 50Iu per week and it's hard to know how much you are giving in a dusted bug. Maybe it's not that important as to the actual dose, I would love to know the toxic dose. I suspect that we don't have proper research to know what the therapeutic dose is versus the toxic dose. Being a former researcher and current doctor I find the nebulous information around dosage of both D3 and Vit A very frustrating but I suspect the therapeutic range is larger than some would have us believe.
I am a believer in the need for Vit A and thank you for posting this link!! I recently asked my Vet about using this Repashy supplement and he strongly suggested I not do it. It's good to hear a little validation for my hypothesis.
I think it is important to know that many of the bigger minds in the Chameleon world do not believe that at least Panthers can convert Beta Carotene to Vit A. I know this is a controversial topic and don't really want to get into the (they can/they can't) convert argument. I just think it is very important for people to know that Herptivite DOES NOT have proform A when they switched to the "Advanced Formulation" the changed to only have Beta Carotene. Reptivite does have proform A (Retinol) and the new Repashy vit A supplement has both Retinol and to a lesser extent Beta Carotene.
I am a believer in the need for Vit A and thank you for posting this link!! I recently asked my Vet about using this Repashy supplement and he strongly suggested I not do it. It's good to hear a little validation for my hypothesis.
I think it is important to know that many of the bigger minds in the Chameleon world do not believe that at least Panthers can convert Beta Carotene to Vit A. I know this is a controversial topic and don't really want to get into the (they can/they can't) convert argument. I just think it is very important for people to know that Herptivite DOES NOT have proform A when they switched to the "Advanced Formulation" the changed to only have Beta Carotene. Reptivite does have proform A (Retinol) and the new Repashy vit A supplement has both Retinol and to a lesser extent Beta Carotene.
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warpdrive
Avid Member
thanks Jann for the info.
yet I would love to hear more info regarding delicate montain chameleons such as cristatus or the more popular quadricornius, as we don't normaly use extra supliments. would using a tiny amount of vit A be OK to use for montains? maybe just once per month or every other month? they are such a slow growing animal compared to a veiled and panther that even just plain calcium needs to be used ultra sparingly.
Harry
yet I would love to hear more info regarding delicate montain chameleons such as cristatus or the more popular quadricornius, as we don't normaly use extra supliments. would using a tiny amount of vit A be OK to use for montains? maybe just once per month or every other month? they are such a slow growing animal compared to a veiled and panther that even just plain calcium needs to be used ultra sparingly.
Harry
jannb
Chameleon Enthusiast
I'll definitely ask him.
jannb
Chameleon Enthusiast
Herptivite only has beta carotene. You would need to use a small amount of Reptivite on like one cricket once a month. Dr. Alfonso makes his own vitamins that I use and it has A so I use his vitamins once a month and the Herptivite once a month.
There are 2 forms of vitamin A....prEformed and prOformed.
Beta carotene is prOformed....prOformed is converted to vitamin A as needed...so it can not create an overdose. If the chameleon can not convert it then it needs to get it in a prEformed source of vitamin A.
PrEformed is just that...already formed and ready to go....so if you give the chameleon too much it will build up in the chameleon's system. It either comes from the insects the chameleon eats or from the supplements (acetate, retinol, etc.) provided for it.
Please pay attention to this..."vitamin A isn’t the enemy but rather a useful friend. It’s just that it is a friend that you can only take in small doses"...and..."But even they can be suscptible to overdoses so you must use it with care and, ideally, under the guidance of a veterinarian."
Beta carotene is prOformed....prOformed is converted to vitamin A as needed...so it can not create an overdose. If the chameleon can not convert it then it needs to get it in a prEformed source of vitamin A.
PrEformed is just that...already formed and ready to go....so if you give the chameleon too much it will build up in the chameleon's system. It either comes from the insects the chameleon eats or from the supplements (acetate, retinol, etc.) provided for it.
Please pay attention to this..."vitamin A isn’t the enemy but rather a useful friend. It’s just that it is a friend that you can only take in small doses"...and..."But even they can be suscptible to overdoses so you must use it with care and, ideally, under the guidance of a veterinarian."
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Dez
Chamalot Chameleons
I use Dr Alfonso's Vitamin supplements too as well as his liquid calcium drops for my gravid girls
He sells them at local reptile shows in Orlando and Tampa.. I am not sure if he makes these available online to be shipped.
sandrachameleon
Chameleon Enthusiast
Herptivite doesnt give PREformed vitamin A (retinol), instead it provides the safer Beta Carotene.
Some on this forum are unable to keep their animals healthy without small amounts of preformed vitamin A. I am not one of those (only used beta carotene for years without problem) but I would agree that adding a very small amount perhaps 2-4 times yearly could be helpful and would not be harmful. Providing large amounts of pre-formed vitamin A can be toxic. You must also be aware that D and A are antagonistic to each other.
You may find these links useful / informative:
https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/sandrachameleon/65-supplements.html
https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/sandrachameleon/174-whats-supplements-brand.html
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jaglon53
Established Member
I learned this vitamin A debacle back in 06 when I bought a sub adult panther that was closing eyes and acting lethargic. I took him to my vet and after a few tests was determined he had vit A deficiency. He was given shots and I was told to use reptivite twice a month I never had the issue again. Now I never had this issue before with a Cham I raised from a juvinile or from an adult but it does make since to use as a safe guard. I doubt using a small amount of reptivite once or twice a month would be lethal. I don't know if I would use a gut load with extra vitamin a though and I agree with the thought of we are all trying to mimic nature the best we can. Cool thread
fluxlizard
Avid Member
Me too- I used it 1x per week throughout most of the 1990s on hundreds of chameleons and never had a problem.
I currently use 1x every 2 or 3 weeks.
I think the safety margin is a little larger than some here believe.
That's an interesting observation but it's missing something in the conclusion- all animals that require some level of vitamin a also require vitamin d. Even carnivores like dogs and cats that require true vitamin a require vitamin d as well.
So to imply that an animal can only effectively use one or the other at any given moment seems incorrect somewhere. Most predators like snakes or other carnivores get everything including vitamin d and vitamin a in one go when they eat a whole prey item like a rodent.
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ChromaChameleons
New Member
It feels like this topic goes round in circles.
I am confident that the research and experience of those such as Connie Dorval , Jim Flaherty and Dr. Fergusen bares out the fact that captive panthers have Vitamin A issues.
Sadly, the pioneers of our hobby figured this out a very long time ago and still the debate continues.
I am confident that the research and experience of those such as Connie Dorval , Jim Flaherty and Dr. Fergusen bares out the fact that captive panthers have Vitamin A issues.
Sadly, the pioneers of our hobby figured this out a very long time ago and still the debate continues.
sandrachameleon
Chameleon Enthusiast
No one has said / implied this.
fluxlizard said..."That's an interesting observation but it's missing something in the conclusion- all animals that require some level of vitamin a also require vitamin d. Even carnivores like dogs and cats that require true vitamin a require vitamin d as well"...most animals do require Vitamin A and Vitamin D...its the ratio that leads to problems...
Although this is with rats, it explains it...
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10573558
"The increasing amounts of retinyl acetate produced a progressive and significant decrease in total bone ash (P < 0.001)" ...and...
"Increasing retinyl acetate, however, eliminated the ability of vitamin D(2) to elevate the level of serum calcium (1.35 mmol/L)."
Although this is with rats, it explains it...
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10573558
"The increasing amounts of retinyl acetate produced a progressive and significant decrease in total bone ash (P < 0.001)" ...and...
"Increasing retinyl acetate, however, eliminated the ability of vitamin D(2) to elevate the level of serum calcium (1.35 mmol/L)."
fluxlizard
Avid Member
I'm sorry, I misunderstood what you were trying to say.
I thought you were implying that because they were antagonistic towards each other vitamin a would prevent effective use of vitamin d and should therefore be avoided almost altogether.
My point is that they are nearly always found together and consumed together in nature.
Is there some way to restate to help me understand?
Thank you for the link. That makes more sense to me than saying if too much is bad a moderate amount is also bad.
Of course, exactly what a moderate amount is would be the question...
I really don't think a tiny amount a couple times a year would stay around in the lizard long enough to provide much benefit.
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clarkrw3
New Member
This goes back to my original question as to the therapeutic dose of each Vit A and Vit D3? Vit D3 which is less controversial has also been used for rat poison (Cholecalciferol). As Harry stated it has been known by the founders of the hobby for a long time that Vit A "retinol" was needed, but it seems that the fear of toxicity has lead this to be an unsettled topic.
From all I know about toxicology and nutrition I would have to say that the range from deficiency to toxicity is a wide one. And I think it is also fair to say that in the wild some bugs deliver Retinol and some don't. Research has not been done to explain which of these natural food sources are contributing to the Vit A intake. What I can not understand is why Rep-Cal has put such a large amount of D3 in their Calcium with D3 and why they removed Retinol from Herptivite. So on one hand Rep-Cal KNOWS D3 and Retinol can be toxic in the wrong dosage so they remove Retinol all together from Herptivite without any research behind it and then they put 400,000 IU/kg of D3 in the Calcium with D3. I am sorry but I don't see the logic in that. And yet they seem to be the most recommended supplements on this forum.
From all I know about toxicology and nutrition I would have to say that the range from deficiency to toxicity is a wide one. And I think it is also fair to say that in the wild some bugs deliver Retinol and some don't. Research has not been done to explain which of these natural food sources are contributing to the Vit A intake. What I can not understand is why Rep-Cal has put such a large amount of D3 in their Calcium with D3 and why they removed Retinol from Herptivite. So on one hand Rep-Cal KNOWS D3 and Retinol can be toxic in the wrong dosage so they remove Retinol all together from Herptivite without any research behind it and then they put 400,000 IU/kg of D3 in the Calcium with D3. I am sorry but I don't see the logic in that. And yet they seem to be the most recommended supplements on this forum.
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Allen Repashy
Member
Hey Everyone!
I thought I would put on my Knee High's and wade on into this conversation since it is a topic near and dear to my heart.
I would like to comment on the Vitamin A and Vitamin D relationship. Vitamin A, D, and for a minor part, E, are all linked together and CAN effect the utilization of each other. Research shows that the ratio between the two in an exclusively fed diet can be at least as important as the levels involved. For example, High levels of Vitamin A in relation to "low" levels of vitamin D, can cause a reduction in bone density, or rickets as it is called in poultry nutrition (which is as close as we can get to reptiles when looking for research that has been done unfortunately. In general, poultry science has been a very good gauge to use for reptile nutrition when it comes to modes of action, requirements, and responses).
What is very interesting though is that while this can be partially corrected by lowering the levels of Vitamin A, raising the levels of Vitamin D to a moderate level eliminates the effects Vitamin A has on bone density.
So yes, high levels of Vitamin A can have a negative effect on bone density in the presence of low levels of Vitamin D, but when moderate levels of Vitamin D are provided, they greatly reduce the risk of Vitamin A toxicity even when it is provided in higher levels than recommended..... Interesting also, is the fact that the study linked to below also shows that High levels of Retinol can reduce the toxicity of too much Vitamin D!
Vitamin D becomes a cushion so to speak, so what does this mean to us as keepers?
What we are really talking about here is not vitamin levels, but blood levels, so using the term Vitamin D is a bit of a misnomer since what is really important is the 25OHD3 blood levels (converted vitamin D3 in the body)
Keeping these levels at optimum, is not necessarily about Supplementation because as we all know, UVB Light can be synthesized into 25OHD3 without any vitamins being involved....... which is the first hurdle we need to overcome because research clearly shows that Vitamin A can cause problems when there isn't enough D to go around.
As far as Vitamin A toxicity, we can get to that, clinically, this is actually extremely rare, and many issues that have been blamed on it in the past have proven to be absolutely false as we have progressed in our nutritional understanding of reptiles. The whole beta-carotene instead of Preformed A was based on someone in the Chameleon world around 15 years ago who had a big following and started blaming Preformed A for problems they were having that were unfounded.
I am not saying that we need a lot of Retinol in a Chameleon's diet, or saying that Mountain species have the same requirements as Lowland species. The product I created "Vitamin A Plus" was primarily developed in direct response to the combined research of a lot of frog breeders, and in this case, Vitamin A supplementation works like a silver bullet to reverse developmental issues in tadpoles and froglets.
It does amaze me though that today, people are still so paranoid about Retinol supplementation. I am yet to see a published report documenting Hypervitamtosis A in Chameleons..... but there are stacks and stacks of clinical reports of Hypovitamintosis A in Chameleons...... Anyways, I am getting ahead of myself..... first, lets understand the importance in the ratios!
This may be a difficult read for some, but I encourage everyone to have a good look at this publication. I had to read it a dozen times myself to really understand it. http://ps.fass.org/cgi/reprint/77/4/585
I thought I would put on my Knee High's and wade on into this conversation since it is a topic near and dear to my heart.
I would like to comment on the Vitamin A and Vitamin D relationship. Vitamin A, D, and for a minor part, E, are all linked together and CAN effect the utilization of each other. Research shows that the ratio between the two in an exclusively fed diet can be at least as important as the levels involved. For example, High levels of Vitamin A in relation to "low" levels of vitamin D, can cause a reduction in bone density, or rickets as it is called in poultry nutrition (which is as close as we can get to reptiles when looking for research that has been done unfortunately. In general, poultry science has been a very good gauge to use for reptile nutrition when it comes to modes of action, requirements, and responses).
What is very interesting though is that while this can be partially corrected by lowering the levels of Vitamin A, raising the levels of Vitamin D to a moderate level eliminates the effects Vitamin A has on bone density.
So yes, high levels of Vitamin A can have a negative effect on bone density in the presence of low levels of Vitamin D, but when moderate levels of Vitamin D are provided, they greatly reduce the risk of Vitamin A toxicity even when it is provided in higher levels than recommended..... Interesting also, is the fact that the study linked to below also shows that High levels of Retinol can reduce the toxicity of too much Vitamin D!
Vitamin D becomes a cushion so to speak, so what does this mean to us as keepers?
What we are really talking about here is not vitamin levels, but blood levels, so using the term Vitamin D is a bit of a misnomer since what is really important is the 25OHD3 blood levels (converted vitamin D3 in the body)
Keeping these levels at optimum, is not necessarily about Supplementation because as we all know, UVB Light can be synthesized into 25OHD3 without any vitamins being involved....... which is the first hurdle we need to overcome because research clearly shows that Vitamin A can cause problems when there isn't enough D to go around.
As far as Vitamin A toxicity, we can get to that, clinically, this is actually extremely rare, and many issues that have been blamed on it in the past have proven to be absolutely false as we have progressed in our nutritional understanding of reptiles. The whole beta-carotene instead of Preformed A was based on someone in the Chameleon world around 15 years ago who had a big following and started blaming Preformed A for problems they were having that were unfounded.
I am not saying that we need a lot of Retinol in a Chameleon's diet, or saying that Mountain species have the same requirements as Lowland species. The product I created "Vitamin A Plus" was primarily developed in direct response to the combined research of a lot of frog breeders, and in this case, Vitamin A supplementation works like a silver bullet to reverse developmental issues in tadpoles and froglets.
It does amaze me though that today, people are still so paranoid about Retinol supplementation. I am yet to see a published report documenting Hypervitamtosis A in Chameleons..... but there are stacks and stacks of clinical reports of Hypovitamintosis A in Chameleons...... Anyways, I am getting ahead of myself..... first, lets understand the importance in the ratios!
This may be a difficult read for some, but I encourage everyone to have a good look at this publication. I had to read it a dozen times myself to really understand it. http://ps.fass.org/cgi/reprint/77/4/585
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