Very Worried.
- Thread starter UrbanChameleon
- Start date
ibdragons
Established Member
Good luck with him . Sorry for what you are going thru. Definetly never used that vet again?: if for any reason his tounge comes out again put him I'm a Tupperware box with a moist paper towel on the bottom so his tounge doesnt dry out till u get him to another vet. Good luck again.
Dr O
Veterinarian
i've been asked to comment, and i'm doing so by commenting on various things that have popped up on this thread, https://www.chameleonforums.com/tongue-issues-92761/, and https://www.chameleonforums.com/my-cham-has-tongue-issue-80739/. there's so many people with many good points and questions, so i'm trying to consolidate them down here.
-the vet did seem to be very impressed with your care overall, so i'm not going to question or comment too much on your husbandry, although as ferret asked, i'm still not quite sure what you were using for your lighting either since the vet asked you to use a 5.0. what have you been using?
-his reaction to the exam is typical for chameleons, unfortunately. we all know that they are high stress and neophobic. but unfortunately restraint is a necessary part of veterinary medicine, and it has to be done at times.
-Panacur (fenbendazole) has an extremely high safety profile and record, and you are unlikely to see any associated signs by the vet giving it. put that aside as it's not causing any issues.
-as to the questions for doing the deworming in the first place; i was actually taught in school to not only deworm every time i had a reptile patient who was ill, but to do a triple dewormer (Panacur, Flagyl, and Droncit). this is due to the (in)accuracy of the fecal test which is about 80%, and the extraordinarily high numbers of parasites we tend to see in reptile medicine. 80% in not an accurate test in my book overall compared to other types of tests that we run for whatever reason. if an ill herp came to me sometimes i would see parasites, sometimes not, sometimes related to the situation, sometimes not, but certainly not helping anything. so on any non-critical/not-massively dehydrated animal i would typically do the triple dewormer at very specific doses, often so small i could not even use a tuberculin (1cc) syringe to measure them (which means doses less than 0.01ml) and had to use special glass syringes that measure 0.05 ml maximum. and never ever did i have a problem with doing such. it sounds like she had similar training. and all in all, better for bugs to be gone than hiding, imo.
-p.s.—and the parasites that the fecal tests look for tend to be lower gastrointestinal ones anyway, but will not show me liver flukes/stomach worms/skin nematodes/many cestodes/etc., but the dewormer will still kill many of those even though we couldn't find them without endoscopy or surgery. i once had a carpet cham (Stinker) hospitalized for several days, critically ill and negative fecals; i chose not to deworm due to his ICU status. he died a few days later, and within minutes, some sort of Strongyloides-type worms game gushing out of his throat. pretty nasty. i sure wish i had given the dewormer. actually have the pictures still of poor Stinker's necropsy. and the worms were the only thing i found that was abnormal.
so if you come and see me, don't be surprised if i deworm anyway. it's not b/c i want to replace the petty cash in my drawer, it's for your pets best interests. but i would have tried to explain to you my rationale for doing it so as not to leave you confused.
-the vet had mentioned that he may be growing too quickly. i can't comment on Loki particularly, but i do think that is a problem in general in the reptile field. in dogs for 50 years the mantra to ward off hip-dysplasia was, gotta build up those bones and muscles at an early age to strengthen the hips as much as we can! and then about 15 years ago we found out through several enormous studies that we were doing the exact wrong thing, and actually promoting hip dysplasia. and that's why nowadays every worthwhile brand of dog food has the "large breed" formula; one that is reduced in many minerals and vitamins since we have discovered that a slow, steady growth to maturity in breeds that are predisposed to dysplasia is much more preventative. a baby snake in the wild is NOT going to eat 3-5 pinkys a week naturally, the average baby cham will go foodless for a day or two, and also expend a tremendous amount of energy and colories trying to get that food compared to what we throw into their 2 cubic foot cage, where they find the food much more quickly. i'm personally raising my hatchlings with all of this in mind. there's just no such thing as an obese reptile in the field. only in captivity. but that's fodder for another thread.
-as for the tongue which is why we're all here: imo if a veterinarian cannot find signs of trauma or infection orally, nor any major husbandry issues, the cham has been using it's tongue normally for a long period of time and then suddenly can't, hyperextension or microtrauma is usually the cause. ever sprain your ankle? don't want to run or walk too much, did you? i'll bet that if my tongue shot out 6 feet eventually AND occasionally, i will strain the muscles or scratch it on an old pizza crust. it's going to hurt for a few weeks (particularly if i have an ectothermic metabolism) and i might kind of point it at my food, testing out how it feels, but not release 'cause that hurts and it's not working right. most cases will resolve by resting the tongue with cup feeding and no spiny legs, and in my hands, an anti-inflammatory.
in the big roulette wheel of tongue issues, i'm placing my chips on strain. rest that tongue, keep up normal standards of husbandry, and i think it will slowly get better.
-the vet did seem to be very impressed with your care overall, so i'm not going to question or comment too much on your husbandry, although as ferret asked, i'm still not quite sure what you were using for your lighting either since the vet asked you to use a 5.0. what have you been using?
-his reaction to the exam is typical for chameleons, unfortunately. we all know that they are high stress and neophobic. but unfortunately restraint is a necessary part of veterinary medicine, and it has to be done at times.
-Panacur (fenbendazole) has an extremely high safety profile and record, and you are unlikely to see any associated signs by the vet giving it. put that aside as it's not causing any issues.
-as to the questions for doing the deworming in the first place; i was actually taught in school to not only deworm every time i had a reptile patient who was ill, but to do a triple dewormer (Panacur, Flagyl, and Droncit). this is due to the (in)accuracy of the fecal test which is about 80%, and the extraordinarily high numbers of parasites we tend to see in reptile medicine. 80% in not an accurate test in my book overall compared to other types of tests that we run for whatever reason. if an ill herp came to me sometimes i would see parasites, sometimes not, sometimes related to the situation, sometimes not, but certainly not helping anything. so on any non-critical/not-massively dehydrated animal i would typically do the triple dewormer at very specific doses, often so small i could not even use a tuberculin (1cc) syringe to measure them (which means doses less than 0.01ml) and had to use special glass syringes that measure 0.05 ml maximum. and never ever did i have a problem with doing such. it sounds like she had similar training. and all in all, better for bugs to be gone than hiding, imo.
-p.s.—and the parasites that the fecal tests look for tend to be lower gastrointestinal ones anyway, but will not show me liver flukes/stomach worms/skin nematodes/many cestodes/etc., but the dewormer will still kill many of those even though we couldn't find them without endoscopy or surgery. i once had a carpet cham (Stinker) hospitalized for several days, critically ill and negative fecals; i chose not to deworm due to his ICU status. he died a few days later, and within minutes, some sort of Strongyloides-type worms game gushing out of his throat. pretty nasty. i sure wish i had given the dewormer. actually have the pictures still of poor Stinker's necropsy. and the worms were the only thing i found that was abnormal.
so if you come and see me, don't be surprised if i deworm anyway. it's not b/c i want to replace the petty cash in my drawer, it's for your pets best interests. but i would have tried to explain to you my rationale for doing it so as not to leave you confused.
-the vet had mentioned that he may be growing too quickly. i can't comment on Loki particularly, but i do think that is a problem in general in the reptile field. in dogs for 50 years the mantra to ward off hip-dysplasia was, gotta build up those bones and muscles at an early age to strengthen the hips as much as we can! and then about 15 years ago we found out through several enormous studies that we were doing the exact wrong thing, and actually promoting hip dysplasia. and that's why nowadays every worthwhile brand of dog food has the "large breed" formula; one that is reduced in many minerals and vitamins since we have discovered that a slow, steady growth to maturity in breeds that are predisposed to dysplasia is much more preventative. a baby snake in the wild is NOT going to eat 3-5 pinkys a week naturally, the average baby cham will go foodless for a day or two, and also expend a tremendous amount of energy and colories trying to get that food compared to what we throw into their 2 cubic foot cage, where they find the food much more quickly. i'm personally raising my hatchlings with all of this in mind. there's just no such thing as an obese reptile in the field. only in captivity. but that's fodder for another thread.
-as for the tongue which is why we're all here: imo if a veterinarian cannot find signs of trauma or infection orally, nor any major husbandry issues, the cham has been using it's tongue normally for a long period of time and then suddenly can't, hyperextension or microtrauma is usually the cause. ever sprain your ankle? don't want to run or walk too much, did you? i'll bet that if my tongue shot out 6 feet eventually AND occasionally, i will strain the muscles or scratch it on an old pizza crust. it's going to hurt for a few weeks (particularly if i have an ectothermic metabolism) and i might kind of point it at my food, testing out how it feels, but not release 'cause that hurts and it's not working right. most cases will resolve by resting the tongue with cup feeding and no spiny legs, and in my hands, an anti-inflammatory.
in the big roulette wheel of tongue issues, i'm placing my chips on strain. rest that tongue, keep up normal standards of husbandry, and i think it will slowly get better.
Last edited by a moderator:
UrbanChameleon
New Member
Okay.. I'm going to get to as many posts as possible, so bear with me. I would like to first of all thank Ferret and Dr. O for responding to my request. And I would also like to thank everyone for the tremendous support and well wishes.
I was very upset and frantic last night, so I apologize if my posts were confusing. I'll start off with the lighting. I've used Exo Terra's 5.0 UVB bulb since day 1. I've switched them out every 4-6 months, and I also use a regular house bulb for heat. The vet I saw read a study (years ago) that only 3 of the UVB bulbs on the market actually produce UVB. She hands a sheet out to all of her patients and recommends using only these bulbs. While I do think that some bulbs are better than others, her information is a bit outdated. I'm sorry if I wasn't clear.
Loki slept last night, and it seems he has improved slightly this morning. He drank last night before going to bed. When I woke up this morning, Loki had started shedding. I observed him for a while, and he hasn't been moving his tongue around as much as he was last night. I got a Phoenix Worm and placed it close to him. He seemed very hungry and I could tell he wanted it. He tried to shoot, and his tongue did come out, but not far at all. I placed the worm a little bit closer and he got it. He didn't seem to struggle while eating it. He ate in total about 4 worms.
I just brought him outside (in his cage) to give him a good spray and some sunshine. He immediately started licking his lips when I sprayed his cage. I sprayed him for a good minute while he kept licking. I'm trying to make sure he gets as much water as possible. He's always been a good drinker, until recently. I'm taking this as a good sign.
I was very confused last night from the comments. I know of people that do a de-wormer on every Chameleon they get, just to be on the safe side. From what I read last night, the drug is fairly safe. I did not get sent home with any Panacur. She gave him a dose yesterday, and told me to come back in three weeks for the next dose and check-up. From what I read, the dose should be given every ten days, to two weeks. Will it hurt him if he doesn't get the next dose in that time frame, or doesn't get it at all?
I also want to note, that I do not have anything against vets. I live in a very small town, and this is the only place that will treat reptiles. I'd heard not so great things, but decided to give this place the benefit of the doubt. I do not think this woman was completely clueless when it comes to her job, but her experience with Chameleon's was disappointing. She knew the basic care, but not much more than that. Because she is located in a small town, she rarely see's Chameleons. Only this past year have they been sold in our local pet stores. The Chameleon's that she has seen, have been in awful shape.
I understood that they would need to handle him a certain way. This was my first vet visit with a reptile and I just assumed she knew what she was doing. He was willingly holding his mouth open for her, but he was still handled aggressively. I'd never seen how it is supposed to be done, so I assumed that this was normal. It's really difficult to pay someone to find answers, and come back out with more questions and problems.
I will post the husbandry questionaire once I answer a few posts.
UrbanChameleon
New Member
i've been asked to comment, and i'm doing so by commenting on various things that have popped up on this thread, https://www.chameleonforums.com/tongue-issues-92761/, and https://www.chameleonforums.com/my-cham-has-tongue-issue-80739/. there's so many people with many good points and questions, so i'm trying to consolidate them down here.
-the vet did seem to be very impressed with your care overall, so i'm not going to question or comment too much on your husbandry, although as ferret asked, i'm still not quite sure what you were using for your lighting either since the vet asked you to use a 5.0. what have you been using?
-his reaction to the exam is typical for chameleons, unfortunately. we all know that they are high stress and neophobic. but unfortunately restraint is a necessary part of veterinary medicine, and it has to be done at times.
-Panacur (fenbendazole) has an extremely high safety profile and record, and you are unlikely to see any associated signs by the vet giving it. put that aside as it's not causing any issues.
-as to the questions for doing the deworming in the first place; i was actually taught in school to not only deworm every time i had a reptile patient who was ill, but to do a triple dewormer (Panacur, Flagyl, and Droncit). this is due to the (in)accuracy of the fecal test which is about 80%, and the extraordinarily high numbers of parasites we tend to see in reptile medicine. 80% in not an accurate test in my book overall compared to other types of tests that we run for whatever reason. if an ill herp came to me sometimes i would see parasites, sometimes not, sometimes related to the situation, sometimes not, but certainly not helping anything. so on any non-critical/not-massively dehydrated animal i would typically do the triple dewormer at very specific doses, often so small i could not even use a tuberculin (1cc) syringe to measure them (which means doses less than 0.01ml) and had to use special glass syringes that measure 0.05 ml maximum. and never ever did i have a problem with doing such. it sounds like she had similar training. and all in all, better for bugs to be gone than hiding, imo.
-p.s.—and the parasites that the fecal tests look for tend to be lower gastrointestinal ones anyway, but will not show me liver flukes/stomach worms/skin nematodes/many cestodes/etc., but the dewormer will still kill many of those even though we couldn't find them without endoscopy or surgery. i once had a carpet cham (Stinker) hospitalized for several days, critically ill and negative fecals; i chose not to deworm due to his ICU status. he died a few days later, and within minutes, some sort of Strongyloides-type worms game gushing out of his throat. pretty nasty. i sure wish i had given the dewormer. actually have the pictures still of poor Stinker's necropsy. and the worms were the only thing i found that was abnormal.
so if you come and see me, don't be surprised if i deworm anyway. it's not b/c i want to replace the petty cash in my drawer, it's for your pets best interests. but i would have tried to explain to you my rationale for doing it so as not to leave you confused.
-the vet had mentioned that he may be growing too quickly. i can't comment on Loki particularly, but i do think that is a problem in general in the reptile field. in dogs for 50 years the mantra to ward off hip-dysplasia was, gotta build up those bones and muscles at an early age to strengthen the hips as much as we can! and then about 15 years ago we found out through several enormous studies that we were doing the exact wrong thing, and actually promoting hip dysplasia. and that's why nowadays every worthwhile brand of dog food has the "large breed" formula; one that is reduced in many minerals and vitamins since we have discovered that a slow, steady growth to maturity in breeds that are predisposed to dysplasia is much more preventative. a baby snake in the wild is NOT going to eat 3-5 pinkys a week naturally, the average baby cham will go foodless for a day or two, and also expend a tremendous amount of energy and colories trying to get that food compared to what we throw into their 2 cubic foot cage, where they find the food much more quickly. i'm personally raising my hatchlings with all of this in mind. there's just no such thing as an obese reptile in the field. only in captivity. but that's fodder for another thread.
-as for the tongue which is why we're all here: imo if a veterinarian cannot find signs of trauma or infection orally, nor any major husbandry issues, the cham has been using it's tongue normally for a long period of time and then suddenly can't, hyperextension or microtrauma is usually the cause. ever sprain your ankle? don't want to run or walk too much, did you? i'll bet that if my tongue shot out 6 feet eventually AND occasionally, i will strain the muscles or scratch it on an old pizza crust. it's going to hurt for a few weeks (particularly if i have an ectothermic metabolism) and i might kind of point it at my food, testing out how it feels, but not release 'cause that hurts and it's not working right. most cases will resolve by resting the tongue with cup feeding and no spiny legs, and in my hands, an anti-inflammatory.
in the big roulette wheel of tongue issues, i'm placing my chips on strain. rest that tongue, keep up normal standards of husbandry, and i think it will slowly get better.
Dr. O,
You've made me feel a bit better about the Panacur situation. From reading the forums, what you stated follows up much of what I've read regarding that drug. I agree that a sick animal doesn't need multiple "maybe this will work" drugs, but I thought a de-wormer was more of a precautionary. It doesn't seem quite un-common that a doctor will treat an animal even if the test came back negative.
I agree with your thoughts on animals being rushed to develop. I was quite surprised when the vet mentioned Loki could be growing too fast. I was always concerned because he is MUCH smaller than his clutchmates. He now looks more like a 5-6 month old, compared to his actual age (8-9). Some of you may remember that he had a rough time when I first got him. I believe that had a big impact on his development. We were never able to figure out exactly what went wrong, but he did make a full recovery and has been living a normal Chameleon life until now.
I thought from day one that he could have "sprained" his tongue. He has never missed one shot, and could always fully extend his tongue until a week ago. It was so out of character and I knew something was wrong. He would have good days, and bad days. Sometimes he wouldn't miss any, then the next day he would go to shoot and couldn't fully extend his tongue. He was able to go about eating after that. Something was off, but it wasn't like it was hindering his daily life. But with Chameleons, you want to figure out what's wrong before it gets worse. I was hoping the vet would test him for any kind of infection, and make sure I wasn't supplementing incorrectly.
I tore the legs off of three crickets and he ate them. He seems very eager to eat. His spirit seems much better, and I will see more improvement. Time is key right now. Time, hydration, sun, food, and supplements. In all honesty, I've read a lot about tongue issues being caused from under-supplementing. And in my opinion, I feel that I could have been over-supplementing. I don't know what to do. I don't want to give him less, and make things worse. I'm giving him plain calcium for now.
I just wish I could have gotten what I paid for at the vet. Even if all of the tests came back fine, at least I could rule those out. Now I have no money, and he's in worse shape. I would spend every dime on getting him better, but I'm a college student. All I had to my name was the $100 I spent to get basic husbandry tips. I'm quite frustrated. I will do whatever it takes though.
Thank you for commenting Dr. O. I appreciate you taking the time out of your day to help me out.
Last edited by a moderator:
UrbanChameleon
New Member
Chameleon Info:
Your Chameleon - Furcifer Pardallis, male, he is approximately 8-9 months old and has been in my care for 5 1/2 months.
Handling - Rarely. Only if needed, or he wants to explore outside of his cage.
Feeding - Mostly Crickets, Butterworms, Silkworms, an occasionally Dubia Roaches. He eats about 8+ crickets a day, depending on their size. A Silkworm or two when I have them. And Butterworms sparingly. I feel that they constipate him, so I don't feed them as often. Crickets are gutloaded with Dinofuel Raptor, Cricket Crack, Repashy Superload, and various vegetables/fruits recommended from Sandrachameleon's blog.
Supplements - He has been supplemented with Repashy Calcium Plus. Since his problems, I have been using pure Phos./D3 free Calcium.
Watering - I use a Mistking that goes off at set times throughout the day. I also use a dripper, but he has never used it. If he needs it, I hand mist myself and give him Silkworms to aid in hydration.
Fecal Description - His fecals have been a little hard lately. His urates have had an orange tint to them also. He used to poop once daily, but now only goes every 2-3 days. I've done everything to get his urates back to white, but nothing seems to be working. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm assuming it looks more orange now because it's are staying in his body longer.
History - When I first got Loki, he was ill. The day after he arrived, he stopped eating completely. He would look at the food, and want it, but was scared to eat it. It was almost like a child that threw up Taco Bell, and just looking at it makes them nauseous. On day 2, he threw up. He didn't eat for an entire week. In the meantime, I was doing everything known to man to get him better. He was drinking like a champ and he got whatever it was, out of his system. I believe he may have somehow ingested something toxic. However, that is only a guess. He has had zero problems since, until now.
Cage Info:
Cage Type - Screen LLL cage, 16x16x30.
Lighting - Regular 60 watt house bulb, and the Exo Terra 5.0 UVB bulb.
Temperature - 84-89 F. in the basking spot. The night temps don't go below 72 F. and his temps are measured with a temp probe.
Humidity - 60%+ I've had a very hard time maintaining humidity this summer. The Mistking has helped to keep the humidity steady, but I have a hard time getting it any higher.
Plants - All fake. I decided against real plants after his sickness at 3 months of age. I wanted his cage to be as clean as possible.
Placement - His cage sits on a shelving unit against my bedroom wall. It isn't near any vents, and is a low traffic area. I'm the only person he sees daily.
Location - Ashland, KY.
Current Problem - As of last week, Loki began missing crickets. He had never missed a feeder before, so I knew something was off. On certain shots, he couldn't fully extend his tongue. I was concerned, but he was still able to eat. I took him to the vet yesterday, and he got manhandled pretty bad. He was so stressed out that he looked like death. I've NEVER seen him like that. It took him about 2 hours to get his tongue back in his mouth, and his eyes to become full again. He was having trouble fully closing his mouth after that, and kept moving his tongue around in his mouth. He drank before going to sleep last night. I woke up this morning with him in shed. He was able to eat 4 Phoenix Worms (without using his tongue). I took him outside in his cage, for some fresh air and a good misting. He drank for a good minute and has been basking ever since. I tore the legs off of three crickets and he was trying to use his tongue, but couldn't shoot it. He didn't seem to struggle swallowing, which is a big improvement. I think he is extremely sore from the vet visit. Hopefully some water, and a little bit of time will help him get back to where he was before the ordeal.
Your Chameleon - Furcifer Pardallis, male, he is approximately 8-9 months old and has been in my care for 5 1/2 months.
Handling - Rarely. Only if needed, or he wants to explore outside of his cage.
Feeding - Mostly Crickets, Butterworms, Silkworms, an occasionally Dubia Roaches. He eats about 8+ crickets a day, depending on their size. A Silkworm or two when I have them. And Butterworms sparingly. I feel that they constipate him, so I don't feed them as often. Crickets are gutloaded with Dinofuel Raptor, Cricket Crack, Repashy Superload, and various vegetables/fruits recommended from Sandrachameleon's blog.
Supplements - He has been supplemented with Repashy Calcium Plus. Since his problems, I have been using pure Phos./D3 free Calcium.
Watering - I use a Mistking that goes off at set times throughout the day. I also use a dripper, but he has never used it. If he needs it, I hand mist myself and give him Silkworms to aid in hydration.
Fecal Description - His fecals have been a little hard lately. His urates have had an orange tint to them also. He used to poop once daily, but now only goes every 2-3 days. I've done everything to get his urates back to white, but nothing seems to be working. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm assuming it looks more orange now because it's are staying in his body longer.
History - When I first got Loki, he was ill. The day after he arrived, he stopped eating completely. He would look at the food, and want it, but was scared to eat it. It was almost like a child that threw up Taco Bell, and just looking at it makes them nauseous. On day 2, he threw up. He didn't eat for an entire week. In the meantime, I was doing everything known to man to get him better. He was drinking like a champ and he got whatever it was, out of his system. I believe he may have somehow ingested something toxic. However, that is only a guess. He has had zero problems since, until now.
Cage Info:
Cage Type - Screen LLL cage, 16x16x30.
Lighting - Regular 60 watt house bulb, and the Exo Terra 5.0 UVB bulb.
Temperature - 84-89 F. in the basking spot. The night temps don't go below 72 F. and his temps are measured with a temp probe.
Humidity - 60%+ I've had a very hard time maintaining humidity this summer. The Mistking has helped to keep the humidity steady, but I have a hard time getting it any higher.
Plants - All fake. I decided against real plants after his sickness at 3 months of age. I wanted his cage to be as clean as possible.
Placement - His cage sits on a shelving unit against my bedroom wall. It isn't near any vents, and is a low traffic area. I'm the only person he sees daily.
Location - Ashland, KY.
Current Problem - As of last week, Loki began missing crickets. He had never missed a feeder before, so I knew something was off. On certain shots, he couldn't fully extend his tongue. I was concerned, but he was still able to eat. I took him to the vet yesterday, and he got manhandled pretty bad. He was so stressed out that he looked like death. I've NEVER seen him like that. It took him about 2 hours to get his tongue back in his mouth, and his eyes to become full again. He was having trouble fully closing his mouth after that, and kept moving his tongue around in his mouth. He drank before going to sleep last night. I woke up this morning with him in shed. He was able to eat 4 Phoenix Worms (without using his tongue). I took him outside in his cage, for some fresh air and a good misting. He drank for a good minute and has been basking ever since. I tore the legs off of three crickets and he was trying to use his tongue, but couldn't shoot it. He didn't seem to struggle swallowing, which is a big improvement. I think he is extremely sore from the vet visit. Hopefully some water, and a little bit of time will help him get back to where he was before the ordeal.
UrbanChameleon
New Member
Thank you. I was wondering about what I would need to do if his tongue started to hang out. That was very helpful.
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