Very ill Male Panther, unknown reasons SOS.

[Dibbles]

I purchased a male panther chameleon 4 weeks ago, from a friend, the animal is about 15 months old. For the first 2 weeks he was very livley and healthy, apparently fine and happy.
However when it came to week 3 he became very lethargic, mostly eyes closed and showed no appettite with no interest in food, not drinking (as far as I know) and his condition has dramatically deteriated untill he's unresponsive to anything.
Now his eyes are sunken into his head, always shut, very pale skin, weak and very thin.
After taking advice from various internet pages etc we have done the following:
Visited the vet who prescribed antibiotics which we stopped using as it made him vomit, eye ointment which seem to have glued his eyes shut. I stopped using this prescribed treatments as they appear to have made him worse. (I washed the ointment out of his eyes)
I have changed the substrate from bark to sheets of newspaper, increased his foliage and removed the live crickets as they appeared to attack him.
I then massivley increased the misting and showered him with warm water. (which he appeared to drink at first)
I've been feeding him bug juice made from wax worm, crickets and water twice a day through a siringe.
I gave him a tiny dose of cod liver oil incase he was impacted.
He has not as far as I know excreted anything for about a week, his terranium is very clean.
I took him outside for sun and air yesturday and he opened his eyes for the first time in a couple of days and walked a bit, but know he does pretty much nothing.
I thought it was dehydration, as it seems to exhibit these symptoms but after feeding him juice, water, showering and misting I'm unsure that he's dehydrated.

I think he is so weak now its going to be a miracle if he survives. Perhaps someone on this site knows of something I could do for him, its very upsetting to watch, death looks iminent, please help.

I have included pictures if it helps.

 

[dodolah]

that chameleon is in severe dehydration.
You need to go to the vet so he can be hydrated back.
Meanwhile, shower is a good thing to do... but, eventually, the vet visit will be the one that save his life.

keep giving him shower regiment once a day to hopefully hydrate him back.
But, i agree with you.. he is in a very critical condition.

 

[Dibbles]

I asked the vet if he should rehydrate via an injection (I assume it would be some sort of injection?) but he didn't want to do it, however I suspect he didn't know how to, he seemed more of a 'cats and dogs' man.

I live in England and its very difficult to get a reptile specialist vet, I will contact one ASAP.

However I am curious to know why he is dehydrated, we've force fed him water, bug juice, showered and misted him frequently - why is he like this?

And if he was thirsty, why wouldn't he drink?

Is there anything else that I should do or stop doing?

Also when I shower him he is still very unresponsive and still dosen't drink, (he drank the first time)

thanks for your quick response, I hope he makes it...

 

[jannb]

You need to find a good vet before it's to late.

 

[CleanLineChameleons]

To me it sounds like something is wrong with the husbandry, it could be a number of things. But it is too far for you to just change your husbandry in hopes to bring him back. Give us details like feeding, supplementation, lighting, and temps. I would go to a vet tomorrow and see what he says...I hope that he gives him about 5 or so cc of Saline. That will rehydrate him as fast as possible, but he is still not in the clear. Some of his organs are probably struggling. So give us some more details on your husbandry and we can probably help you figure things out, but go to the vet tomorrow because he doesn't have much time.

-chris

 

[Chameleonboy]

omg wow he does not look to good try showering him 2 times a day keep misting him see if he will eat he looks a little skinny maby you can get him to a little bit of sunlight that might help a little bit but i dunno if you will get any sunlight where you live

i hope he can make it he looks like a really nice chameleon


sometimes it takes my chameleon like 5 or 10 min to start drinking but dont drench him in water or put the water like right on top of him

 

[Kat77]

Please answer the following questions: Also, you mentioned that he had bark in his enclosure. He could be impacted, especially if he hasn't pooped. What he needs is a good reptile vet, yesterday. Go TOMORROW or he will be dead by Wednesday or suffering terribly.
Cage Info:
Cage Type - What kind of cage are you using? What is the size?
Lighting - What kind of lighting are you using? How long do you keep the lights on during the day?
Temperature - What temperature range have you created? Basking spot temp? What is the temperature at night?
Humidity - What are your humidity levels? How are you creating and maintaining these levels?
Plants - Are you using live plants? If so, what kind?
Location - Where is your cage located? Is it near any fans, air vents, or high traffic areas?

Chameleon Info:
Your Chameleon - The species, sex, and age of your chameleon.
Feeding - What are you feeding your cham? What amount? What kind of schedule? How are you gut-loading your feeders?
Supplements - What are you dusting your feeders with and what kind of schedule do you use?
Watering - What kind of watering technique do you use? Do you see your chameleon drinking?
Fecal Description - Briefly note colors and consistency from recent droppings.
History - Any previous information about your cham that might be useful to others when trying to help you.
Current Problem - The current problem that you are concerned about.

 

[Dibbles]

He is in a flex cage about 4ft by 2.5ft.

His lighting - 150 watt daylamp, 100 watt inferred (this is a cold climate country so I assume this is fine) and a 75 watt night light and a UV light.

His light routine - 12hrs of daylamp and UV light and then at night the night light and if temperature below 60 an inferred light.

In his cage - bog wood from the pet shop, a few plastic plants and live foliage, plants as advised by this forum. He did have bark, but I have replaced this with newspaper sheets as again advised by this forum.

His supplementation - reptivite

His food before his illness - 3-4 medium brown crickets every other day, 2-3 wax worms every other day and dechlorineated water from a water fountain.

During his illness - 2 crickets and a wax worm mushed up with water (like a juice) force fed through a siringe, twice a day and washed down with 10ml of water. Attempted to feed live, whole food but vomited it back up.

Since hes been ill we've moved his cage to a quiet location in the house also we have elevated his cage on to a table.

Regular misting, warm water 4 times a day and a shower once a day for about 20mins.

Hope this helps...

 

[Kat77]

He is in a flex cage about 4ft by 2.5ft.

His lighting - 150 watt daylamp, 100 watt inferred (this is a cold climate country so I assume this is fine) and a 75 watt night light and a UV light.

His light routine - 12hrs of daylamp and UV light and then at night the night light and if temperature below 60 an inferred light.

In his cage - bog wood from the pet shop, a few plastic plants and live foliage, plants as advised by this forum. He did have bark, but I have replaced this with newspaper sheets as again advised by this forum.

His supplementation - reptivite

His food before his illness - 3-4 medium brown crickets every other day, 2-3 wax worms every other day and dechlorineated water from a water fountain.

During his illness - 2 crickets and a wax worm mushed up with water (like a juice) force fed through a siringe, twice a day and washed down with 10ml of water. Attempted to feed live, whole food but vomited it back up.

Since hes been ill we've moved his cage to a quiet location in the house also we have elevated his cage on to a table.

Regular misting, warm water 4 times a day and a shower once a day for about 20mins.

Hope this helps...

Ok, one at a time:
What is a flex cage? Glass or screen?

That is way too much lighting. Ideally, you would only have a clamp lamp for heat and a Repti-Sun 5.0 tube light. There should NEVER be a light left on at night. At all. So that needs to go. What are the temperatures in his cage? Basking spot and ambient temp.

What sort of live plants are you using?

Did he get sick while you still had bark in the cage? If so, that could be the culprit. If he got any of that stuff with a feeder he could be impacted.

You really need to get him to a vet who does more with reptiles. It sounds like the first vet you took him to didn't have a clue. If he is vomiting up his food and hasn't pooped for a week, I would be very afraid that he is impacted. Either way, PLEASE answer the above questions and get him into a vet tomorrow.

 

[mika]

You said you got him from your friend at 15 months & he was doing great.

My question is:

What is the difference between your setup & your friend's setup?

 

[KevinA]

Do you measure the humitity levels? That does appear to be a lot of light and heat generation. It may be sucking the water out of him (baking him) this may also be the reason for closed eyes adn possibly the inability to pass waste. If you look at his head, you can see that from the line up his head on his casque it slopes inward to the sides. This is a sign of dehydration/malnutrition. Those should be semi plump with fat pads.

Try and measure the humitity levels and also take temperature readings at various spots in his cage to detirmine if he has appropriate places to regulate his temperature. If your force feeding him water, which I may have done, there is something else going on that he is not sustaining water/food.

edit:
I just re-read your post. You have 150 watts of regular incandescent light and 100 watts of infra red light for a total of 250 watts on a 4x2 cage. That does seem to be significantly too much. Again, take temperature readings at various areas throught his cage. Also, I re-read you are in a cold climate area, cold climate areas often have low humidity. Mesure humidity levels

 

[mika]

To me it sounds like something is wrong with the husbandry, it could be a number of things. But it is too far for you to just change your husbandry in hopes to bring him back. Give us details like feeding, supplementation, lighting, and temps. I would go to a vet tomorrow and see what he says...I hope that he gives him about 5 or so cc of Saline. That will rehydrate him as fast as possible, but he is still not in the clear. Some of his organs are probably struggling. So give us some more details on your husbandry and we can probably help you figure things out, but go to the vet tomorrow because he doesn't have much time.

-chris

I agree!

You need to take him to the vet & then figure out what's wrong with your husbandry after.

I've seen couple pictures like that & the next day, the cham is dead.

 

[Kat77]

Indeed. I hope he makes it through the night.

 

[Chameleons Northwest]

Sorry to hear about your little guy. He looks like he could be a beautiful animal.

Perhaps possible severe heat stress? Turn off the night light, and lower those temps.

I agree with KevinA. It looks like it may be heat stress and dehydration, caused by elevated temperatures. He looks deathly ill. If he doesn't respond overnight to the lowered temperatures then get him to the vet right away. Your post wasn't clear, did you take him to a vet already? Or did you talk to the vet on the phone?

You said you use:

"His lighting - 150 watt daylamp, 100 watt inferred (this is a cold climate country so I assume this is fine) and a 75 watt night light and a UV light."

I would recommend that you really MUST get a thermometer and a hygrometer. It is nearly impossible to keep a chameleon healthy if you don't regulate its temperatures and humidity. Thermometer/Hygrometer combinations are very inexpensive and can be picked up at pet stores or even at home improvement stores or hardware stores.

His basking temp, the small area high in his cage where he can perch and get his warmest, should be about 85 degrees. The ambient temp in his cage should be in the 70s. The night time temps can drop down to about 65 degrees. You probably use the celsius scale, so you would have to convert. You don't need a night time heat lamp unless temps drop below the 60s. You don't need an infrared lamp.

Do use a tube shaped UVB lamp, not a compact coil shaped one. The compact coil shaped lamps can also cause illness.

 

[KevinA]

I asked the vet if he should rehydrate via an injection however I suspect he didn't know how to, he seemed more of a 'cats and dogs' man.

find a vet that has experiance with reptiles(good experiance, as in successfully treating a serious reptile illness)

However I am curious to know why he is dehydrated, we've force fed him water, bug juice, showered and misted him frequently - why is he like this?

It is a common recomendation for people in my area traveling to england to keep a window open at night to avoid a cold/caugh even if it is cold out side! This is because, while it is cold outside, air conditioning units take moisture our of the air! These air conditioning units put out DRY AIR, reducing humidity, drying out the lungs of people from places like me resultin in dry lungs, suceptable to illness. If you get my idea, you are probably running the heater, drying the air to compensate for cold air outside, reducing the humidity in your home and chameleons need humidity.




And if he was thirsty, why wouldn't he drink?

becasue he may be too weak

Is there anything else that I should do or stop doing?


find a veteranarian that has experiance with reptiles.

may be give a SMALL amount of water in his mouth directly. Emphasis on SMALL amount at a time so as not do drown him. When you put it in their mouth, they do not suck it down right away. I'm talking about less than 1cc(I'm not a vet and not good with metric, but something smaller than the size of your middle finger nail may be a 1 or 2 times a day) but get him to a vet. I dont know what Im doing but he seems like he may die.

emphasis on get him to a vet that knows reptiles, and none of us really know enough to prescribe a treatment, it's all guesses for us.

.................

 

[Dibbles]

Today I took him to a second vet, who has more experience with reptiles than my first vet.

He gave him a saline innjection, an antibiotic injection and a vitimin injection.

His very words were hes 'on a knifes edge' if he will pull through or not.

I had the animal x-rayed and his internal organs appeared to be very flat and all towards the back of his body, the vet said he thought his organs should be further forwards, compared to his other chameleon x-rays.

Although he appears to have a bit fight left in him from restraining during injection, afterwards he returned to his deathly pallor and is still like this, in stasis, very weak and pale.

The vet suggested that he was so ill we should increase his day time and night time temperature to 90 in the day and 70 at night.

He also said that I should continue the bug juice, but thought I was giving him to much fluid (5ml) and should have about 2ml per day. (too little for rehydration?)

Is this good help and advice?

Any opinions appreciated...

 

[jannb]

I am so glad that you found a different vet. I hope that your little guy will make it. I will keep good thoughts for you and him.

 

[CammieNLeno]

Not sure if this has allready been stated, i read through the posts the best i could with limited time at work today, but it also looks like he has been burnt in multiple locations. I would say, like others, that this is husbandry issues, and more specifically, related to your lighting.

His lighting - 150 watt daylamp, 100 watt inferred (this is a cold climate country so I assume this is fine) and a 75 watt night light and a UV light.

That is waaaayy to much and overkill. You dont even need a light at night, much less a 75w one. with a 150w PLUS a 100w, those burns i see pretty much sum it up for me.

Pending the guy makes it, you will need to change this.

 

[Kat77]

Not sure if this has allready been stated, i read through the posts the best i could with limited time at work today, but it also looks like he has been burnt in multiple locations. I would say, like others, that this is husbandry issues, and more specifically, related to your lighting.



That is waaaayy to much and overkill. You dont even need a light at night, much less a 75w one. with a 150w PLUS a 100w, those burns i see pretty much sum it up for me.

Pending the guy makes it, you will need to change this.

I did mention the overkill lighting, and now on closer inspection I see the burns. Poor guy.

I'm glad you took him to another vet. I hope he pulls through.

 

[joefarah]

http://www.chameleonnews.com/?page=article&id=100