Veiled Lacking Probiotics

[Gregorjr]

I have a 2.5 year old male Veiled that I've had for about a year. I recently cleaned the carpet in the room he is in (I took him out to clean it and let it dry). Yesterday he wasn't looking so good and I took him to the vet. They checked him out and did a fecal float and smear. They told me the fecal test shows that he is lacking "good" bacteria and they don't know exactly why. He's now on a liquid diet to give him a boost. I feed his feeders a blended concoction of fruits, vegetables, kelp, spirulina, bee pollen; I dust them twice a week with Calcium (minus D3) and twice a month with a supplement. Feeders include silk and butter worms and crickets. Everything seems right on, so I'm wondering if some remnants of the chemicals from the carpet cleaning was the culprit for depleting him of probiotic bacteria.

 

[kpritch17]

I'm not sure if the cleaning would do anything. You should be using calcium w/o D3 6x per week and calcium w/ D3 and vitamins 2x per month. I don't know if the supplement schedule would have anything to do with it either.

 

[Dave Weldon]

...test shows that he is lacking "good" bacteria and they don't know exactly why...

Howdy Justin,

What does your vet think about adding a probiotic to your Veiled's diet to restore the good bacteria?

Example: NutriBAC df

http://www.reptileuv.com/what-are-probiotics.php

 

[CNorton]

I would split a tub of the stuff with you except for the distance to Boulder from LA might be a deal breaker. Anyone here in southern cal need some NutriBAC? PM me

 

[draetish]

What is the difference in using NutriBac df verses Reptaid? They both seem to have great benefits for chams whether they are ill or not.

 

[Todnedo]

On sale here http://www.carolinapetsupply.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=46

 

[Gregorjr]

Thanks Y'all

I asked about probiotics; they said it wouldn't hurt. I'm going to go ahead and buy some. Their main concern was that the stool sample was not fully digested. My concern is that I think the vet is basing their conclusion (no probiotics) on the fact that his poop wasn't digested that day rather than on the smear/float tests. He just started shedding around his head and eyes yesterday; could that have stressed and altered his digestion THAT day. His feces and urine typically look good and he's eating and acting normal again.


Should I really be giving a 2.5 year old chameleon that much calcium? Six days a week seems like too much of a good thing... I hear varying responses all the time. I'll try bumping up the regime to 4 times a week and see how he responds.

Thanks for your help!

 

[draetish]

What is the difference in using NutriBac df verses Reptaid? They both seem to have great benefits for chams whether they are ill or not.

Nevermind, I answered my own question.

Reptaid™ is designed to help your reptile overcome viral, bacterial and microscopic infections without the complications one would get from more traditional treatments. It is well known in the reptile world that traditional medications can have limited success and debilitating side effects. While undergoing traditional treatments for parasitic infections, reptiles can experience loss of appetite, lethargy, hydration issues, even organ damage. Reptaid™ is a blend of herbs that is gentle to the system, and is found to be beneficial to the health and well being of reptiles.*

Why do reptiles need probiotics or DFMs?
Antibiotics have been a valuable tool against certain diseases. Unfortunately, some pathogens, such as Salmonella, are resistant to their capabilities to prevent or cure disease. Because of the indiscriminate nature of some antibiotics they will destroy both "bad" and "good" bacteria. Since the bacteria "war" is a numbers game, it is important that the "good" bacteria always outnumber the "bad" bacteria.

Feeding a probiotic or DFM specially formulated for reptiles can help insure this replenishing of "good" bacteria. Since all animals can experience stress and pathogens take advantage of stressful situations it is crucial that there are fewer numbers of these potential pathogens in the gut of the animal.

 

[lisagr07]

Feeding a probiotic or DFM specially formulated for reptiles can help insure this replenishing of "good" bacteria. Since all animals can experience stress and pathogens take advantage of stressful situations it is crucial that there are fewer numbers of these potential pathogens in the gut of the animal.

i may have totally misunderstood this but.... is feeding the probiotics something that needs to be done routinely, for added good health of the animal??

thanks,, lisa

 

[SpinyFranky]

I asked about probiotics; they said it wouldn't hurt. I'm going to go ahead and buy some. Their main concern was that the stool sample was not fully digested. My concern is that I think the vet is basing their conclusion (no probiotics) on the fact that his poop wasn't digested that day rather than on the smear/float tests. He just started shedding around his head and eyes yesterday; could that have stressed and altered his digestion THAT day. His feces and urine typically look good and he's eating and acting normal again.


Should I really be giving a 2.5 year old chameleon that much calcium? Six days a week seems like too much of a good thing... I hear varying responses all the time. I'll try bumping up the regime to 4 times a week and see how he responds.

Thanks for your help!

Out of curiosity, what are your basking and ambient temps? and how are you measuring this?

Partially digested food would in my mind suggest inadequate temperatures. Lower temps will cause a slow down in metabolism which directly controls digestion and nutrient absorption.

Also to answer your question, If it is a male chameleon - you can be feeding him appropriately sized feeders every other day. I would dust with Calcium every time.

If you are feeding everyday, this may also be a cause for incomplete digestion, the older the animal, the slower its metabolism naturally becomes (exactly as in humans and many other species of Animal)

at 2.5 years of age, growth is usually it not 100% guaranteed to be complete, notice however that I speak of growth as in maturation - he will always be "growing". Upon maturation - it is appropriate to feed every other day, as less is needed to sustain the animal, as well as it is usually more beneficial for weight management and prevention of obesity and lethargy.

Most keepers are taught "ok once its old feed less!" but, they are never given the details as to why they should feed less. So I have provided a majority of it for you here.

Hope this helps!

P.S if the animal was recently on anti biotics such as baytril that may also account for partially digested food. While Baytril is a miracle worker in reptiles - it is not without flaws, as it indiscriminately targets bacteria malign or benign. If this is the case, simply adding Yogurt or Nutri Bac will be a good solution

S.F

 

[SpinyFranky]

i may have totally misunderstood this but.... is feeding the probiotics something that needs to be done routinely, for added good health of the animal??

thanks,, lisa

Probiotics are naturally occuring within the animal itself, mainly in the colon and digestive tract.

Medications such as Baytril, being used on reptiles is proven to decrease if not eliminate probiotic count. This results in partially digested if not undigested food being passed through the animal.

While routine supplementation of either probiotic supplements or foods such as yogurt is not completely necessary, it could not hurt to offer it at least once in a blue moon.

Though I should note that it is recommended to provide such things after the cycling of medication is complete. Avoid using it during the cycle, as some keepers make the mistake of doing. Application during medication cycling is usually ineffective as with the next dosing of Baytril or similar medications, will effectively attack the probiotics that you just administered.

Best to wait until the medication has been completely cycled and flushed from the body.

S.F

 

[lisagr07]

Probiotics are naturally occuring within the animal itself, mainly in the colon and digestive tract.

Medications such as Baytril, being used on reptiles is proven to decrease if not eliminate probiotic count. This results in partially digested if not undigested food being passed through the animal.

While routine supplementation of either probiotic supplements or foods such as yogurt is not completely necessary, it could not hurt to offer it at least once in a blue moon.

Though I should note that it is recommended to provide such things after the cycling of medication is complete. Avoid using it during the cycle, as some keepers make the mistake of doing. Application during medication cycling is usually ineffective as with the next dosing of Baytril or similar medications, will effectively attack the probiotics that you just administered.

Best to wait until the medication has been completely cycled and flushed from the body.

S.F

thanks for the explination!!! it sounds good to me... lisa

so chameleons eat yogurt? i'm guessing just plain, or will they eat the fruity ones??

 

[SpinyFranky]

thanks for the explination!!! it sounds good to me... lisa

so chameleons eat yogurt? i'm guessing just plain, or will they eat the fruity ones??

I am sure a veiled could be tempted to eat a yogurt smeared piece of romaine.

With Panthers it would most likely need to be watered down and administered via oral syringe.

Flavor does not matter, but the brand does. There are specific brands of yogurt with there "healthy digestive system" labeling - those are the ones you want to get for the animal. I highly doubt that giving it go-gurt would do any good. .

There are also powder supplements mentioned in this thread that could be used to the same effect, but I would suggest watered down and administered through oral syringe with any of those.

 

[Leilaskeeper]

Probiotics are naturally occuring within the animal itself, mainly in the colon and digestive tract.

Medications such as Baytril, being used on reptiles is proven to decrease if not eliminate probiotic count. This results in partially digested if not undigested food being passed through the animal.

While routine supplementation of either probiotic supplements or foods such as yogurt is not completely necessary, it could not hurt to offer it at least once in a blue moon.

Though I should note that it is recommended to provide such things after the cycling of medication is complete. Avoid using it during the cycle, as some keepers make the mistake of doing. Application during medication cycling is usually ineffective as with the next dosing of Baytril or similar medications, will effectively attack the probiotics that you just administered.

Best to wait until the medication has been completely cycled and flushed from the body.

S.F

Do you have sources to support your recommendations regarding baytril? I would feel more comfortable knowing there was some sort of material out there to support your opinions. Thanks!!

Also, I'm a little weary feeding my chameleon yogourt for probiotic supplementation. I don't think there is a yogurt stand in Madagascar ... unless I'm mistaken ... lol

 

[SpinyFranky]

Do you have sources to support your recommendations regarding baytril? I would feel more comfortable knowing there was some sort of material out there to support your opinions. Thanks!!

Also, I'm a little weary feeding my chameleon yogourt for probiotic supplementation. I don't think there is a yogurt stand in Madagascar ... unless I'm mistaken ... lol

If you know the root of Yeast Infections, its the same complex.

Yogurt is the cheap solution, nor is it recommended for every day use.

However, when you were a child at some point you must have had a infection requiring anti biotics, did the doctor not recommend putting the pill in some yogurt during treatment?

Any biology course will teach you that antibiotics target general bacteria, regardless of malign or benign position.

If however you wish for specific evidence regarding Baytril in chameleons, well I doubt a study has been done yet, but general knowledge should still apply.

http://www.parrotparrot.com/articles/aa012801.htm this applies to parrots, and while they are more evolved than reptiles - medications such as Baytril are indescriminant to species.

Every once in a while I give my parrots yogurt, well more like they steal it from me in the morning during breakfast.... however I understand your doubts, and I have faith that a quick google search will easily reassure you.

P.S

I never said it was to be used a supplementation - which would indicate periodic and sustained use. Simply it is an effective counter measure to most anti biotic treatments, and after a cycling of medication, it is wise to give a cycle of yogurt or powdered probiotics.

After that cycling the animals immune system can take care of itself, and there is no need to continually feed it yogurt or powders, besides the calcium supplements and optional vitamins given.

 

[SpinyFranky]

If you know the root of Yeast Infections, its the same complex.

Yogurt is the cheap solution, nor is it recommended for every day use.

However, when you were a child at some point you must have had a infection requiring anti biotics, did the doctor not recommend putting the pill in some yogurt during treatment?

Any biology course will teach you that antibiotics target general bacteria, regardless of malign or benign position.

If however you wish for specific evidence regarding Baytril in chameleons, well I doubt a study has been done yet, but general knowledge should still apply.

http://www.parrotparrot.com/articles/aa012801.htm this applies to parrots, and while they are more evolved than reptiles - medications such as Baytril are indescriminant to species.

Every once in a while I give my parrots yogurt, well more like they steal it from me in the morning during breakfast.... however I understand your doubts, and I have faith that a quick google search will easily reassure you.

P.S

I never said it was to be used a supplementation - which would indicate periodic and sustained use. Simply it is an effective counter measure to most anti biotic treatments, and after a cycling of medication, it is wise to give a cycle of yogurt or powdered probiotics.

After that cycling the animals immune system can take care of itself, and there is no need to continually feed it yogurt or powders, besides the calcium supplements and optional vitamins given.

As a supplement to this I should add that I was first introduced to the concept by Elliot from Chameleons North West, after which I spent the better of a day in research. However I am just the kind of guy that cares not just that something works, but how it works and why - in response the outcome is a better keeper of animals.

 

[kinyonga]

SpinyFranky said..."Application during medication cycling is usually ineffective as with the next dosing of Baytril or similar medications, will effectively attack the probiotics that you just administered."...and..."when you were a child at some point you must have had a infection requiring antibiotics, did the doctor not recommend putting the pill in some yogurt during treatment?"

Aren't you kind of contradicting yourself?

You said..."If you know the root of Yeast Infections, its the same complex."...what's the same complex??

The site you listed (http://www.parrotparrot.com/articles/aa012801.htm ) said..."The only probiotic that would be specific for birds would need to be cultivated from birds"....it says to go ahead and try the probiotics used/made for humans on the birds...they won't harm them but they won't likely help them either.

 

[SpinyFranky]

SpinyFranky said..."Application during medication cycling is usually ineffective as with the next dosing of Baytril or similar medications, will effectively attack the probiotics that you just administered."...and..."when you were a child at some point you must have had a infection requiring antibiotics, did the doctor not recommend putting the pill in some yogurt during treatment?"

Aren't you kind of contradicting yourself?

You said..."If you know the root of Yeast Infections, its the same complex."...what's the same complex??

The site you listed (http://www.parrotparrot.com/articles/aa012801.htm ) said..."The only probiotic that would be specific for birds would need to be cultivated from birds"....it says to go ahead and try the probiotics used/made for humans on the birds...they won't harm them but they won't likely help them either.

Yes I can see where you would state that it sound contradictory, however you must understand that pro human pharmaceutical medications are much more advanced than reptiles medications, as well as that the human body reacts differently.

I must admit now that without prior knowledge, the reference I made seems illogical. One must understand that most common anti biotics for humans are much more discriminant than pet medications, simply because more reasearch and perfection has been done - simply because it is a much bigger business with much grander profit probability.

The human immune system uses many pro biotics to counter fight pathogen infections. However Baytril ( a medication designed for specific use on animals ) targets all bacteria, malign and benign.

The doctor may say to take the pill with your yogurt, but simply because the yogurt will give an added boost to your already function pro biotics - in reptiles it is to reestablish previously destroyed ones. If that makes more sense.

However, point be made, it is still important to administer any probiotics after medication treatment has met full cycle and flushed from the body - this is not true for humans, however our immune system is much more advanced and complex than say a chameleons.

Where as I would assume chameleon pro biotics are mainly in the form of digestive additives to not only break down protein chains, but also aid in their movement towards the stomach lining, Human probiotics fight off pathogens, bacteria, disease, and more.

So while the doctor told me to put the pill in the medication, it really is acting as a two pronged attack - the pill to directly attack infections, and probiotics in the yogurt to boost already existent ones in the body.

Hope this clarifies

Sorry, I admit it was a bad example that needed to be clarified.

 

[SpinyFranky]

SpinyFranky said..."Application during medication cycling is usually ineffective as with the next dosing of Baytril or similar medications, will effectively attack the probiotics that you just administered."...and..."when you were a child at some point you must have had a infection requiring antibiotics, did the doctor not recommend putting the pill in some yogurt during treatment?"

Aren't you kind of contradicting yourself?

You said..."If you know the root of Yeast Infections, its the same complex."...what's the same complex??

The site you listed (http://www.parrotparrot.com/articles/aa012801.htm ) said..."The only probiotic that would be specific for birds would need to be cultivated from birds"....it says to go ahead and try the probiotics used/made for humans on the birds...they won't harm them but they won't likely help them either.

To answer the second part of your response, please remember that we are dealing with chameleons, not birds. Secondly, while extensive research has not been done to prove that probiotics in yogurt will have an affect on birds, neither has research been done to disprove it.

Until such research appears to disprove or affirm this notion, I find it perfectly fine to give them yogurt once in a while. So long as it causes no problems, and I have had my parrots all for 6+ years, each has ingested yogurt of various brands and flavors ( though they prefer yoplait ) and none have had negative side affects.

In my mind set however, I would assume that since we all followed a similar biological evolutionary chain, that our immune systems cannot be all that different. And while the human immune system is more "advanced" this can simply be related to cell count according to species.

Following these lines, I would assume that similar methods should apply truthfully to other systems as well. Just as our brain acts differently from say a snakes, the basic construction and functions are very similar.

So in this case I would find it safe to assume that our digestive systems cannot help but be similar as well.

If it becomes true that probiotics of yogurt do not function properly within the Parrots digestive tract, well as long as no harm is done I find no reason to stop administering Yogurt to them, as it is a fairly decent source of calcium.

However I do not go around offering all my animals yogurt, every day to boost probiotic count. My reptiles will be given Yogurt simply when the need arises, and I may very well supplement the Yogurt with powdered probiotics as well.
The birds enjoy it as a treat every once in a while, or when they can steal it from my spoon.

 

[kinyonga]

Most doctors I have dealt with (and even vets) say to give the pill with something tasty so that the child/animal can swallow it easier or swallow it without knowing that it was swallowed.

You said..."while extensive research has not been done to prove that probiotics in yogurt will have an affect on birds, neither has research been done to disprove it"....while this is not from a scientific study, there are an awful lot of sites that say that the probiotic needs to be the right one for the creature involved, including big breeders...so there must be some reason why so many say it...
"What some people do not realize is that not only must a probiotic for birds be alive to effectively work; it also must be comprised of avian-specific bacteria"...
http://www.audreysaviary.com/gpage.html2.html

"Most probiotics are species specific"...
http://www.freewebs.com/englishtrumpeter/superiorbreeders.htm

"However, the microflora of the intestinal tract of the dog and cat differ from those found in people and probiotic organisms appear to be species specific"....
http://pet-nutrition.suite101.com/article.cfm/probiotics_to_treat_diarrhea_in_dogs_and_cats

You said..."our immune system is much more advanced and complex than say a chameleons"...could you please show me something that proves this? I'd love to read about it.

And could you show me some proof of this too..."Where as I would assume chameleon probiotics are mainly in the form of digestive additives to not only break down protein chains, but also aid in their movement towards the stomach lining, Human probiotics fight off pathogens, bacteria, disease, and more."