The High Prices of The New Madagascar Quotas Chameleon Species?

frankpayne32

Avid Member
Frank, I heard the same thing from a few as well. I know some of the original prices are dropping for the next shipments later this year so I hope to see that reflected in their retail prices as well.
That would be great news. Hopefully they are significant drops.
 

Chase

Avid Member
From what I've been told by an importer (and he totally could have been BS'ing me) the high prices are originating from the exporters in Maddy. Supposedly the importers aren't making much profit on these high prices.

I'm hoping that importers will simply stop accepting these exorbitantly high prices and the exporters realize that they need to sell these new quota species for the same prices as the original four quota species.
I've also heard that as well from a few importers.

I do agree that if the prices were lower the importers would not have to sit on them so long. I know some are too stressed and parasite filled by the time they get here to make it, but in general they would move a lot faster into homes that actually can have them set up properly.

Even if prices were 300 cheaper, that makes quite a difference. If petteri, wilsii, or bifidus were even 750-850 a pair, that's still a pretty penny.

Chase
 

frankpayne32

Avid Member
I've also heard that as well from a few importers.

I do agree that if the prices were lower the importers would not have to sit on them so long. I know some are too stressed and parasite filled by the time they get here to make it, but in general they would move a lot faster into homes that actually can have them set up properly.

Even if prices were 300 cheaper, that makes quite a difference. If petteri, wilsii, or bifidus were even 750-850 a pair, that's still a pretty penny.

Chase
Absolutely, if gastrotaenia were a few hundred bucks cheaper I would probably have pulled the trigger on some by now. Just too much money for the risk right now.
 

Trace

Captain Awesome
There is always somebody who will pay the higher import prices to have the latest cool lizard in their living room. Just because a few people in the US won’t do it, doesn’t mean that everyone thinks that way. Wouldn’t that mean the exporters will eventually sell to the places that will pay their prices? They are allowed to export 250 Furcifer campani but it doesn’t mean that 250 have to come to the United States.

PS. I know this is about Maddy species but since CITES people and exporters are reading this; I could really use a pile of Trioceros goetzei for real cheap. Make that happen for me.
 

Chase

Avid Member
PS. I know this is about Maddy species but since CITES people and exporters are reading this; I could really use a pile of Trioceros goetzei for real cheap. Make that happen for me.
Hey if you're getting some, I want a few as well! Go ahead and send some over!

Chase
 

frankpayne32

Avid Member
There is always somebody who will pay the higher import prices to have the latest cool lizard in their living room. Just because a few people in the US won’t do it, doesn’t mean that everyone thinks that way. Wouldn’t that mean the exporters will eventually sell to the places that will pay their prices? They are allowed to export 250 Furcifer campani but it doesn’t mean that 250 have to come to the United States.

PS. I know this is about Maddy species but since CITES people and exporters are reading this; I could really use a pile of Trioceros goetzei for real cheap. Make that happen for me.
Sad, but you are probably completely right.
 

ataraxia

Avid Member
They are allowed to export 250 Furcifer campani but it doesn’t mean that 250 have to come to the United States.
From my understanding (Cant remember where i read this)...The US is actually only allotted a small portion of the animals to be exported from maddy. Asia getting the biggest portion and Europe following.
 
Jeremy,

You have to know that there is a huge difference between a captive bred animal and a wild caught animal. The amount of time, money and risk is so incredibly skewed between the two there is absolutely no way you can compare a wild caught price to a captive bred price. If and when you bred, you will learn this very quickly. After raising the parents, breeding, laying, incubating (6-7 months), raising babies (3-4 months), selling the young, backing your animals with health guarantees and maintaining connection with your customers who own your animals, I think you can ask for a little higher price on an animal. In most cases this is only about $25-50, something seems wrong doesn't it?

As for pricing, you should look again, WC Nosy Faly are only $650 a pair...

Once again, you are speaking from shoes you don't fill and most likely never will. It isn't fair to say that Thomas should have to lose the money on the female, especially because eggs were produced and hopefully fertile. This is the risk Thomas took when he imported them and cared for them over the last few months as they could have easily died in his hands and it is the risk Ninja Nick took in buying them.

I will go back to my original post in that if Thomas would have not had them up for the crazy $1,600+ (which you support) and had the price at something reasonable they would have sold much sooner which means they are in a healthier state and both the importer and customer wouldn't have lost all that money and the animal wouldn't have lost its life in a FedEx Box!
I have been following the thread since its inception and it has some very good and worthwhile information. Thank you to everyone who has contributed. However I would like to chime in now that my name has been brought up. I just would like to make it known that everything between myself and the seller has been resolved and it is no ones fault in general regarding what happened. As Nick states it was a risk I took as well as a risk the seller took. I purchased from him due to his known reputation, he sent me picture after picture of the bifidus in perfect health and they thrived in his care. The female unfortunately did not do well in shipping and that was that. I did receive 14 eggs from the female and that was considered in the resolution that we came to. I would purchase from him again in the future and actually plan to should any more bifidus come in as I now have a lone male (who is doing quite well) and the eggs that are hopefully viable.
 

Trace

Captain Awesome
From my understanding (Cant remember where i read this)...The US is actually only allotted a small portion of the animals to be exported from maddy. Asia getting the biggest portion and Europe following.
That’s not something I’ve particularly heard of over the years but it could very well be true. I’d like to read the link if you find it. Perhaps Chris or somebody could enlighten me on where these animals go after they have been given quotas.
 

NHenn

Avid Member
I have been following the thread since its inception and it has some very good and worthwhile information. Thank you to everyone who has contributed. However I would like to chime in now that my name has been brought up. I just would like to make it known that everything between myself and the seller has been resolved and it is no ones fault in general regarding what happened. As Nick states it was a risk I took as well as a risk the seller took. I purchased from him due to his known reputation, he sent me picture after picture of the bifidus in perfect health and they thrived in his care. The female unfortunately did not do well in shipping and that was that. I did receive 14 eggs from the female and that was considered in the resolution that we came to. I would purchase from him again in the future and actually plan to should any more bifidus come in as I now have a lone male (who is doing quite well) and the eggs that are hopefully viable.
I'm glad to hear that you were able to come to a resolution that works for everyone. I wasn't trying to single you out but I've had the exact same experience you did more than once and it is a shame that it continues to happen to others as well.
 
I'm glad to hear that you were able to come to a resolution that works for everyone. I wasn't trying to single you out but I've had the exact same experience you did more than once and it is a shame that it continues to happen to others as well.
Awesome. Thanks for the clarification. I just did not want anyone feeling that the seller was being unfair as he has been in communication the entire time and been very helpful. Thanks again and good luck with the willsii. Now please resume the conversation that brings the price of bifidus down and get me some females! BTW, to any one that has any available or otherwise, I am in the market. ;)
 

Motherlode Chameleon

Chameleon Enthusiast
Jeremy,

You have to know that there is a huge difference between a captive bred animal and a wild caught animal. The amount of time, money and risk is so incredibly skewed between the two there is absolutely no way you can compare a wild caught price to a captive bred price. If and when you bred, you will learn this very quickly. After raising the parents, breeding, laying, incubating (6-7 months), raising babies (3-4 months), selling the young, backing your animals with health guarantees and maintaining connection with your customers who own your animals, I think you can ask for a little higher price on an animal. In most cases this is only about $25-50, something seems wrong doesn't it?

As for pricing, you should look again, WC Nosy Faly are only $650 a pair...
Nick

If you have finished the reading of the entire thread I state paying top dollar only for A grade chameleons.

You have not got an accurate picture of me to enlighten you I have bred mostly Madagascar Chameleons (3 out of the 4 original quota species) along with a couple of Africa species.

As you listed if you drop the prices of these imports these chameleons that you are breeding. Your chameleons are going to be worth less. That is making it less economic sense to breed your new quota chameleons species. Plus I think these species are worth these higher prices.

Actually there are prices I have seen of species in the 2012 and 2014 new quotas species have a large price range. There are expensive species(Calumma parsonii parsonii, Calumma oshaughnessyi, and Furcifer bifidus) $1000-$4000 a pair, Mid Range Calumma brevicorne, Calumma malthe, and Furcifer willsii $500.00-$800 a pair and affordable Calumma nasutum and Calumma gastrotaenia (there are similar species to Calumma nasutum and Calumma gastrotaenia on the quota list) prices $300.00 and +++ a pair. I am for price ranges along these lines.

As for not filling my shoes I have accomplished my marks!! I have hit some bumps along the way however I have accomplished what I have aspired to accomplish. You should not make statements about people when you have no clue about what they are doing.

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich
 
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Cameron B

Established Member
Sorry Bob I am not posting my age on these Forums. I have stated before I have been keeping chameleons from before the 1995 ban meaning my age should not be a surprise.
That makes you seem fishy when you say things like that.


Food for thought for those in this thread.

For the record, I too am in the camp that these high prices damage things more than help. There are other "high" prices these animals could be priced at to keep novices away, but still give experienced people a chance. These importers hold on to animals just prior to death comes knocking before they even consider unloading these animals at lower prices. Hardly productive at all.
 
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Motherlode Chameleon

Chameleon Enthusiast
That makes you seem fishy when you say things like that.

Food for thought for those in this thread.

For the record, I too am in the camp that these high prices damage things more than help. There are other "high" prices these animals could be priced at to keep novices away, but still give experienced people a chance. These importers hold on to animals just prior to death comes knocking before they even consider unloading these animals at lower prices. Hardly productive at all.
These high prices demand that wholesalers and retailers take the best care of there chameleons. That is a good policy I think these high prices encourage. Chameleons have higher prospects of wasting away if in retailers or wholesales if they are regarded as cheap.

Bob has a clue of my age he does not need me to openly post. Nor should I be expected to have to post openly personal information on any Forums.

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich
 
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Cameron B

Established Member
These high prices demand that wholesalers and retailers take the best care of there chameleons. That is a good policy I think these high prices encourage. Chameleons have higher prospects of wasting away if in retailers or wholesales if they are regarded as cheap.
It doesn't demand anything but almost certain death in a relatively small timespan. Too often I receive WC chameleons that die quickly after arrival, and many of them were high priced. They come in after being in the care of the importer for months (so they say), treated and "eating great." In reality they are filled with parasites and dehydrated to kingdom come. Wholesalers and retailers simply cannot dedicate the time necessary to focus on a single chameleon properly when they are busy trying to sell 30 others.

Bob has a clue of my age he does not need me to openly post. Nor should I be expected to have to post openly personal information on any Forums.

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich
But Bob was not the only one questioning your age. That's what matters, especially when your supposed involvement with CITES comes into play and others begin to doubt your credibility.
 

Motherlode Chameleon

Chameleon Enthusiast
It doesn't demand anything but almost certain death in a relatively small timespan. Too often I receive WC chameleons that die quickly after arrival, and many of them were high priced. They come in after being in the care of the importer for months (so they say), treated and "eating great." In reality they are filled with parasites and dehydrated to kingdom come. Wholesalers and retailers simply cannot dedicate the time necessary to focus on a single chameleon properly when they are busy trying to sell 30 others.
It is their job to take care of their chameleons. We expect them too if they do not they won't stay in business.

Were you paying retail or wholesale prices for your chameleons?

But Bob was not the only one questioning your age. That's what matters, especially when your supposed involvement with CITES comes into play and others begin to doubt your credibility.
Bob had a clue of what my age was. I am not posting personnel information on a thread.

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich
 

Motherlode Chameleon

Chameleon Enthusiast
Primarily retail.

Stop talking about Bob. Read carefully if you want to reply.
You do not have a clue what is going on.

I finished reading your post. Guy you're posting on my thread do not try to bully me about trying to make me post my personnel information openly when it is confidential.

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich
 
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Nick

If you have finished the reading of the entire thread I state paying top dollar only for A grade chameleons.

You have not got an accurate picture of me to enlighten you I have bred mostly Madagascar Chameleons (3 out of the 4 original quota species) along with a couple of Africa species.

As you listed if you drop the prices of these imports these chameleons that you are breeding. Your chameleons are going to be worth less. That is making it less economic sense to breed your new quota chameleons species. Plus I think these species are worth these higher prices.

Actually there are prices I have seen of species in the 2012 and 2014 new quotas species have a large price range. There are expensive species(Calumma parsonii parsonii, Calumma oshaughnessyi, and Furcifer bifidus) $1000-$4000 a pair, Mid Range Calumma brevicorne, Calumma malthe, and Furcifer willsii $500.00-$800 a pair and affordable Calumma nasutum and Calumma gastrotaenia (there are similar species to Calumma nasutum and Calumma gastrotaenia on the quota list) prices $300.00 and +++ a pair. I am for price ranges along these lines.

As for not filling my shoes I have accomplished my marks!! I have hit some bumps along the way however I have accomplished what I have aspired to accomplish. You should not make statements about people when you have no clue about what they are doing.

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich
Jeremy, do you mind my asking in why you think those particular species should be listed so high?
 

GCash

Avid Member
As much as it pains me to do this, I must play the devil's advocate for a second. I would love to come across some easily affordable breeding groups of a few different Malagasy species, but I must say, the greater the number imported and the lower the price would only make it harder for any of us to get a decent return on the hard work it takes to produce quality CB offspring. Take deremensis or werneri for example, because they're imported so regularly and have a relatively low price, how many quality CB animals do you think would get passed over for a $60-$80 WC? How many Graceful and Senegal chameleon breeders are out there? The fewer the number of any species imported is going to dictate a higher price based on simple supply and demand. Breeders need to understand that any tool of commerce comes with a hefty price tag, especially if it offers a profitable return. The higher price for these animals should be regarded as a business investment. I believe that the higher prices could be a step in the right direction if a few other points follow. If only a relatively few animals are allowed to be exported annually, you can't blame the exporters for trying to get the most they can out of them. I personally would rather see fewer animals collected from the wild that go to breeders instead of becoming genetically dead end pets, and the best filter for that is a high price tag that only someone in a breeder's position could justify such an investment and risk. If the exporters would like to get the most they can per animal, they need to take special care of the fewer specimens they are working with and provide even sex ratios, possibly even sold as sexed pairs only. The importers should also take equally special care and not undermine getting these sexed pairs into breeding situations and providing top quality fresh WC bloodlines to breeders who will appreciate the ability to supply the remaining market without the competition of poorly treated mass imports being sold so cheaply they drive down the price a quality CB should command. Additionally, any importer who does prove to adhere to these ideals, take proper care of their animals and not tax the breeders with exorbitant markups should be rewarded with the offering of any surplus CB offspring that may need to be offered wholesale. I believe it could be a win-win-win-win-win situation this reciprocity and cooperation can create.

That being said, I work with deremensis and werneri and in no way do I do it in the hopes of getting rich. It's for the love of the beauty and amazement I have for these creatures and I'm sure this is the same reason these breeders complain about the high prices. I completely understand that when something is done on a deeper level than monetary gain, it's easy to resent the greedy profiteers, and most of the time, rightfully so.

The deremensis have been regularly available at relatively low cost recently but the ones I've recieved have been in such horrible condition, I'm not even confident they can be reproductively viable. A perfect case against quantity over quality. I would have happily paid more for healthy specimens that had been treated well.

All species could benefit.
 
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