The High Prices of The New Madagascar Quotas Chameleon Species?

[leedragon]

Instead of raising the price of any chameleon, I would rather see requirements given to a prospective buyer, an interview and a quiz along with a signature. Besides, it isn't about buying the chameleon... like any animal, it's about caring for the animal once in possession. This would prevent someone who isn't prepared to own a chameleon a lot more. If anything, this mode would at least educate the buyer. I feel it would be a lot better than depending on the money factor.

agree, some sort of contract to comit to take care of the animal for all the years this particular species lives

 

[luevelvet]

Luis it is so nice to see you on the forums again. I am counting on you breeding your C. brevicorne, I will be happy to get them at your price, because I know they will be worth it in the quality you breed.

Thanks Laurie, you've always been such a great supporter of ours, even when weren't very active in the chameleon community.

If we're fortunate enough to get eggs from the C.brevicornis, I will definitely let you know but I hate counting on it until they actually hatch. So many things can go wrong in that time, especially with the newer species.

But, hopefully we'll be seeing you and Lee before then and we can all sit down and talk about it over a beverage at Daytona, or better yet, at our place.

Thanks,

Luis

 

[laurie]

Thanks Laurie, you've always been such a great supporter of ours, even when weren't very active in the chameleon community.

If we're fortunate enough to get eggs from the C.brevicornis, I will definitely let you know but I hate counting on it until they actually hatch. So many things can go wrong in that time, especially with the newer species.

But, hopefully we'll be seeing you and Lee before then and we can all sit down and talk about it over a beverage at Daytona, or better yet, at our place.

Thanks,

Luis

Yes Daytona is not far away. Did you know Elisa has C.brevicornis eggs waiting to hatch? I am hoping a lot for those also. I would love to visit and chat, it has been a while.

 

[luevelvet]

Instead of raising the price of any chameleon, I would rather see requirements given to a prospective buyer, an interview and a quiz along with a signature. Besides, it isn't about buying the chameleon... like any animal, it's about caring for the animal once in possession. This would prevent someone who isn't prepared to own a chameleon a lot more. If anything, this mode would at least educate the buyer. I feel it would be a lot better than depending on the money factor.

I think you're absolutely right that buyers should be reviewed but it's really not practical to touch upon everyone or do an in depth review of what everyone's skills and experiences are. With that said I also believe the buyer has a lot of responsibility on their shoulders as well. They should research the species they're interested in, find out about the potential sellers and learn what to expect. If you're buying WC's from one of the KS dealers ALWAYS expect animals to be in rough shape and require acclimation and treatment. If the price is low, there's a reason for that. They're looking to move them before they die under their care. High prices don't always mean quality but if the service is right and the seller has a good reputation, they should have no qualms answering your questions or concerns to make you feel better about the situation.

I guess, the more I type (as you can see it's a process for me) the more thoughts come to mind about all of this. I can see why so many people are afraid to purchase WC's from random dealers online. The fact is, the majority of the wholesalers don't do what's best for the animals, they do what's best for their pockets. I'm not trying to single anyone or lump everyone into that description but in my experience it's been more so than not. In the current landscape of this industry, wholesalers are not here to sell healthy animals rather they're our contact to get the animals here and at the moment, it's our job to do what we can with them. I say this because often times it isn't their lack of care, rather it's their lack of resources to care for everything they get. For every pair of C.parsonii also come 100's of little brown ground geckos that no one wants, 100's of snakes and/or frogs that cost them a dollar or two each. No matter who you are, any operation will have a hard time treating everyone of those animals with the correct conditions and care they require. They are the middle men of the business right now and until that changes, it's all we're stuck with. :-/


Thanks,

Luis

 

[leedragon]

I think you're absolutely right that buyers should be reviewed but it's really not practical to touch upon everyone or do an in depth review of what everyone's skills and experiences are. With that said I also believe the buyer has a lot of responsibility on their shoulders as well. They should research the species they're interested in, find out about the potential sellers and learn what to expect. If you're buying WC's from one of the KS dealers ALWAYS expect animals to be in rough shape and require acclimation and treatment. If the price is low, there's a reason for that. They're looking to move them before they die under their care. High prices don't always mean quality but if the service is right and the seller has a good reputation, they should have no qualms answering your questions or concerns to make you feel better about the situation.

I guess, the more I type (as you can see it's a process for me) the more thoughts come to mind about all of this. I can see why so many people are afraid to purchase WC's from random dealers online. The fact is, the majority of the wholesalers don't do what's best for the animals, they do what's best for their pockets. I'm not trying to single anyone or lump everyone into that description but in my experience it's been more so than not. In the current landscape of this industry, wholesalers are not here to sell healthy animals rather they're our contact to get the animals here and at the moment, it's our job to do what we can with them. I say this because often times it isn't their lack of care, rather it's their lack of resources to care for everything they get. For every pair of C.parsonii also come 100's of little brown ground geckos that no one wants, 100's of snakes and/or frogs that cost them a dollar or two each. No matter who you are, any operation will have a hard time treating everyone of those animals with the correct conditions and care they require. They are the middle men of the business right now and until that changes, it's all we're stuck with. :-/


Thanks,

Luis

I am thinking about the dealing of adopting a dog, one needs to fill up a formel and sign a contract and what so ever. it would be nice to see something like that with chameleons, that you have the space the money, the time and the knowledge at least with this threatened species

 

[Gumball Machine]

that's where I was heading with it all. It isn't difficult to have someone read something over and sign it in the least. It won't change someone but it could and providing the information could very well help an outcome. I cannot stress how a high price-tag hardly deters someone from buying if they are set to have it. Yes, people can lie on a form and perhaps say they have all the requirements to provide adequate care. Sometimes someone just doesn't know and after going through and reading a simple list of requirements for a chameleon set-up alone can prevent a chameleon from having a bad start. Yes, it is up to a new buyer to already know these things, but let's face it.... a lot of people are impulsive pet buyers.

 

[Montium]

<Jumps on to the couch in his PJ's, turns on the Chameleon forums channel, eats popcorn>

Yes, my cave has a couch and Satellite.

And yet it's the same drama on every forum; replace chams with motorcycles or cars and you get the same arguments.

 

[Chase]

So with fall approaching we will see more shipments come in. I already know prices will be extremely lower than prior shipments. $250 for a female antimena, 400 for oshaughnessyi females, brevicorne for 500 or less a pair. While these prices are significantly lower than the original prices, I still feel their high enough to allow for serious keepers to get them.

Thoughts?

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

So with fall approaching we will see more shipments come in. I already know prices will be extremely lower than prior shipments. $250 for a female antimena, 400 for oshaughnessyi females, brevicorne for 500 or less a pair. While these prices are significantly lower than the original prices, I still feel their high enough to allow for serious keepers to get them.

Thoughts?

Thanks for the update Chase

I think highly of Furcifer pardalis. However I shutter at the idea of healthy and much rarer in captivity Calumma oshaughnessyi, Furcifer antimena, or Madagascar Elephant Eared Chameleons having the same sale prices as over abundant Furcifer pardalis.

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich

 

[GCash]

Thanks for the update Chase

I think highly of Furcifer pardalis. However I shutter at the idea of healthy and much rarer in captivity Calumma oshaughnessyi, Furcifer antimena, or Madagascar Elephant Eared Chameleons having the same sale prices as over abundant Furcifer pardalis.

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich

Right? There are much more rare chameleons out there that don't command nearly the price of pardalis, as common as they are. Drives me crazy. And it's not even that I don't think panthers are beautiful and should be priced where they are. It's just that we are losing the diversity of chameleons available in captivity with the limited interest, and a once exciting "hobby" is now becoming flooded with a single species to the point of becoming boring. A huge thanks to all who work with the uncommon species to keep things interesting. Keep up the good work. Hopefully more will catch on to what you're doing and start to appreciate the scope our "hobby" has to offer.

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

Right? There are much more rare chameleons out there that don't command nearly the price of pardalis, as common as they are. Drives me crazy. And it's not even that I don't think panthers are beautiful and should be priced where they are. It's just that we are losing the diversity of chameleons available in captivity with the limited interest, and a once exciting "hobby" is now becoming flooded with a single species to the point of becoming boring. A huge thanks to all who work with the uncommon species to keep things interesting. Keep up the good work. Hopefully more will catch on to what you're doing and start to appreciate the scope our "hobby" has to offer.

Gene and Everybody

Variety/a Selection is the spice of life. As well there is the supply and demand aspect of this situation as well. There are thousands upon thousands of Furcifer pardalis available to keepers in the hobby. This plus the part that there is a good selection of locals and thousands of captive bred babies available.

I think some of the new quota species such as Calumma oshaughnessyi or mini Parsons (that only have got a quota of 250 specimens a year with no captive bred specimens available yet) should not be for sale for a lower price than Furcifer pardalis. The Parsonii like chameleons are that popular and there are not that many to go around. It is going to bother me to watch them being sold at a value that is on the low side of where I think they should be priced in the chameleon hobby market. This may seem strange however Madagascar do not give away your prized chameleons it is less profit for you (per chameleon) and becoming a dime a dozen industry as seen before the 1995 ban causes neglect and other problems on both sides of the deal from importers and exporters. An error made and nothing learned is an error to be made again. Lets learn from past exports not to make these exports dime a dozen exports and demand healthy fewer imports. However keep a healthy price for species that are more in demand or high profile species. I think higher prices are good for the industry, even if it means it may take some savings and patients, to buy your colony of higher profile Madagascar chameleon species. Keeping these species from becoming seen as dime a dozen Madagascar quota imports is important. This dime a dozen mentality causes problems on both sides of the importation and exportation of chameleons from Madagascar to the rest of the world. Whether it is peoples perception of chameleons being prized species that should be conserved in the wild, or generally speaking by importers and exporters not taking as much care of your chameleons when importing and exporting. Madagascar chameleons are species that should to stay prized and we should not start a trend that they should be considered just dime a dozen species a seen with other species such as Chamaeleo senegalensis or Chamaeleo gracilis. I think the dime a dozen mentality is negative in the industry for these chameleon species and for species/Madagascar forest conservation.

Generally speaking there are more pluses if the prices stay high. This being higher profits for accomplished breeders, more bang for your buck for exporters and importers, along with less neglect to the chameleons if there are fewer yet more valuable chameleons being taken care of, and Madagascar forests are more valued/prized since they are home to, in the worlds eye, a paradise of prized chameleons.

I have got my digit crossed that higher profile imports prices stay high.

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich

 

[Trace]

Just because someone has the money to buy expensive chameleons does not always mean they have the experience to keep, let alone breed, said expensive chameleons.

 

[leedragon]

Just because someone has the money to buy expensive chameleons does not always mean they have the experience to keep, let alone breed, said expensive chameleons.

but when this chameleons are cheap, like they seem to be in asian they are stuck up and not given the attention they need due they did not acquire much to acquire them.

those kind of chameleons special wc should have a price that make the possible owner think twice or why not 3, 4 times before buying them.

if possible save the money so they have time to think and do some extra research, who know they may stumble with something they haven't even consider before.

 

[Chase]

$250 is still a lot of money (using the F. antimena price I quoted earlier). I think the prices that I'm finding now are a nice medium. It's simple economics.

First shipment= very low supply, very high demand = very high prices

As the supply goes up, naturally demand will go down because there are more available and people who had a high demand have already purchased them.

Another way to look at this... What do you consider actively working with a species? Let's say for maths sake, 3 pairs. The original Calumma oshaughnesseyi that came in were $2300 for a pair (where I was working at the time), so if you wanted three pairs, that puts you at $6900. How many people do you know have that much laying around?

Say that in this next shipment they are 800/pair, that's still $2400. Still a ton of money. And, as Trace said, just because you have money does not mean you have the ability to properly care for them right then. I don't care if the lizard is 500 or 10000, I'm still going to think long and hard about spending that much on an animal.

Now, higher prices do deter the impulse buyer, but it also causes for the animals to just sit. Take F. petteri for example- when they first came in they were over 1000 a pair, now there are only 4 pairs in the country and the importers aren't likely to waste space on them because they sat around. Higher prices also are detremental due to that no one will want to buy them.

Chase

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

Just because someone has the money to buy expensive chameleons does not always mean they have the experience to keep, let alone breed, said expensive chameleons.

Trace

I know Trace there are just some examples when chameleons were being imported to the USA back in the 1990's they were treated as dime a dozen at importers and exporters. These people had the money to pay a solid price for chameleon species. However since they were being imported at such a low cost if there was a large part of that import that died off it was not a major concern because they could afford the neglect. If these exporters and importers are paying/charging higher prices for exported/imported chameleons this neglect is going to go away as seen with modern imports because these business's cannot afford the loses.

$250 is still a lot of money (using the F. antimena price I quoted earlier). I think the prices that I'm finding now are a nice medium. It's simple economics.

First shipment= very low supply, very high demand = very high prices

As the supply goes up, naturally demand will go down because there are more available and people who had a high demand have already purchased them.

Another way to look at this... What do you consider actively working with a species? Let's say for maths sake, 3 pairs. The original Calumma oshaughnesseyi that came in were $2300 for a pair (where I was working at the time), so if you wanted three pairs, that puts you at $6900. How many people do you know have that much laying around?

Say that in this next shipment they are 800/pair, that's still $2400. Still a ton of money. And, as Trace said, just because you have money does not mean you have the ability to properly care for them right then. I don't care if the lizard is 500 or 10000, I'm still going to think long and hard about spending that much on an animal.

Now, higher prices do deter the impulse buyer, but it also causes for the animals to just sit. Take F. petteri for example- when they first came in they were over 1000 a pair, now there are only 4 pairs in the country and the importers aren't likely to waste space on them because they sat around. Higher prices also are detremental due to that no one will want to buy them.

Chase

Chase

The supply is going to stay constant since these are conservative quota exports. There is always going to be not much supply for these 2014 Madagascar new quota species (with the exception of Calumma nasuta 1000 a year) since their quotas are low quotas as compared to Furcifer pardalis (3000 a year).

Your rational about buying 3 pairs of Calumma oshaugnessyi is a moot point. There are keepers now that are keeping and breeding Calumma parsonii parsonii groups of 3.3 or more where pairs start priced at $3000.00 a pair and more and nobody is complaining. There are Furcifer pardalis keepers who are paying $800.00 to $1600.00 a pair for exceptional specimens of Nosy Faly, Nosy Mitsio, and other rare locals of Furcifer pardalis. Some keepers may buy there breeding stock immediately or over a period of time. However making these breeding groups at higher prices is something keepers are capable of even if it requires some patience.

If you want to have an example. Have a look at the prices of Parsonii like chameleons and Madagascar Elephant Eared chameleons in European markets. From the prices I have seen they are either about the same prices as rare local Furcifer pardalis or much higher priced than Furcifer pardalis. A similar chameleon market is what I have got my digits crossed as becoming an ideal market for new Madagascar quota species in the North America. I have got an idea of what the market is in Asia. However with how much Black Market/Under the Radar importation there is I think a lack of value of these spectacular species is probably harming the industry from where it could be in Asia.

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich