Possible MBD? Please read!

[KevinN1]

Chameleon Info:
Your Chameleon - 9month old male panther chameleon. I've had him for 7months.
Handling - Almost every day but may skip a day or two. He doesn't seem to mind.
Feeding - I feed him between 8-10 medium/large crickets daily, with the addition of an occasional waxworm or mealworm. I gut-load with flukers complete cricket diet (orange cubes).
Supplements - I dust crickets every day with "exoterra" calcium without D3. I also have repcal herptivite and repcal calcium WITH D3 which I alternate between every 2 weeks.
Watering - I have a spray bottle and I mist his enclosure about 4 times a day. I do see him drinking. Sometimes he drinks right from the nozzle of the bottle as I gently spray into his mouth
Fecal Description - he has not been tested for parasites, but his poop is normal from what I can tell. He poops maybe once or twice a week and it's always brown with a white tip.
History - No previous information that I know of.

Cage Info:
Cage Type - all screen enclosure 18"x24"x36"
Lighting - I use two basking bulbs because it's been extra cold around the winter. As for UVB I'm using a 24" tube 5.0 Reptisun light.
Temperature - Temperature in his cage is on average 65-80 with coldest parts being the lower ends of the enclosure, and warmest parts being near the top.
Humidity - As mentioned before, I spray/mist his enclosure about 4 times a day. I maintain the humidity between 40-70, sometimes higher after recent spray/mist sessions.
Plants - I have two live umbrella plants in his enclosure.
Placement - Cage is in my room, away from traffic except for myself. It is located on top of my dresser so that he can be elevated from the floor.
Location - I live in southern California.

Current Problem - As of lately, I've noticed that Yoshi grabs his front legs with his back legs when he tries to walk. It's as if he has no idea he is grabbing himself. It's gotten to the point that he tries to move his front leg that he's already grabbed with his back leg and ends up losing his balance and falling down. Just today he fell from his basking spot all the way to the bottom of his enclosure. I've read on the forums that this could be a sign of possible MBD and I'm worried. I give him calcium at every feeding and just today purchased a new UVB light because the previous one has been in use for almost 6months. What could I have been doing wrong? How can I improve it? In these past 7 months that I've had him, he's been fine. This problem only started within the last couple of weeks.

 

[jannb]

I'm sorry to hear that Yoshi is having problems. Please post some pictures of him. Not that it has anything to do with his problem but I would recommend you change your gut load. The Flukers is not worth buying IMO. You need to buy a good quality gut load such as the Cricket Crack sold by one of our forums members and add to that a varierty of fresh greens, fruits and veggies. I also recommend you up his basking temps to 86 or 87. Also he will be needing a bigger cage real soon after you get his problem fixed. Right now you don't want him to fall and get hurt so I'd put him in a smaller enclosure if you have one or line the branches and bottom of his cage with something soft such as towels to cushion his fall. If he were mine I'd take him to a good reptile vet that has chameleon experience but I guess you could try some liquid calcium first.

 

[KevinN1]

Here are some pictures of my little guy. If it is MBD, the symptoms aren't physically noticeable, at least as far as I can tell.

 

[ridgebax1]

Those were the symptoms my boy Pete showed although my husbandry was not optimal as I had poor information from the pet store that sold him to me. I kept him in a small container with branches on the bottom so he would not fall. He landed on his back and was injured pretty badly. He also had gular edema. I was not using supplements properly and I had not replaced his UVB as again I had bad info. I hope your guy gets better.

 

[Dez]

A little trick to see if they are low on calcium. With your finger Feel the ridge above the chams eye (like where his eyebrow would be). . It should be hard like bone . If it is soft than that means calcium is low.

My observation is this area is the first to be affected by low calcium before the curved arms and legs can be seen .

Grabbing himself is also a symptom.

I would also change up your gutload. Maybe it was just as simple as you had a defective uv bulb...or the branches where not in the best place for him to sit under .

 

[KevinN1]

Ridgebax1: I see your little guy Pete didn't make it. I'm sorry for your loss

And thank you for your input Jann, I'll definitely change up the gut-load I use. Since this problem is fairly recent, I figured it might have been a problem with his old UVB light (which was nearing 6months of usage) or the exoterra calcium. Since I just replaced his UVB light, I think I may wait just a little longer before taking him to a vet. But seeing how calcium deficiency is a cause of MBD, does anyone have any complaints about the Exoterra calcium without D3? Will it make a difference if I change it up, or should I stay with what I have? I've read many times that "repashy" is a good one, but I haven't tried it myself.

 

[Chameleon Company]

A little trick to see if they are low on calcium. With your finger Feel the ridge above the chams eye (like where his eyebrow would be). . It should be hard like bone . If it is soft than that means calcium is low.

My observation is this area is the first to be affected by low calcium before the curved arms and legs can be seen .

Grabbing himself is also a symptom.

I would also change up your gutload. Maybe it was just as simple as you had a defective uv bulb...or the branches where not in the best place for him to sit under .

Hey Dez. That can work, but I want to offer an even more certain test. Foolproof .........

Grab the chameleon behind the head, so as to upset it. This will prompt it to open its mouth in the hopes of biting you, its aggressor. Depending on the size of the chameleon, then offer it the appropriate sized finger to take out its angst upon. If it is OK on calcium, it will be a strong bite. If not, the bite will be nothing, such that its jaws will bend in the effort.

Dr. Alfonso came up with this years ago, to my knowledge. It is most accurate.

To Kevin: Try something different for Calcium:

http://www.foodotc.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=CN1134428&Click=6

Two drops orally per 50g of chameleon every 3 days, until symptoms are gone. Then dose once weekly. Far more effective than the powders.

Edit #2: Herptivite is a near useless product. None of the powders are very good, but that is in the no-good category. I suggest you switch to liquid vitamins as well.

Either this : http://www.drsfostersmith.com/produ...&catargetid=1570185685&cadevice=c&cagpspn=pla

1 drop per 50g weekly. Or buy the human product, for babies, Poly-Vi-Sol, by Enfamil, in any drug store. Same dosage.

 

[ridgebax1]

Kevin yes unfortunately Pete passed away, but it was hard to know that his problems were related to the care I did/did not give. I hope your guy gets better. I think by the time Pete was symptomatic, it was really to late to do anything. Based on the fact he also had gular edema, I think there was other systems that were damaged. I wish I had found these forums before he was ill.

Jim, your recommending these liquid supplements for routine use? I use herptivite and powdered calciums. Are they totally useless? That is all I have used for my veiled. If using the liquid calcium how do you supplement the D3? Also I have a very baby panther whose weight doesn't even register on my gram scale so how would I dose him?

 

[Chameleon Company]

Kevin yes unfortunately Pete passed away, but it was hard to know that his problems were related to the care I did/did not give. I hope your guy gets better. I think by the time Pete was symptomatic, it was really to late to do anything. Based on the fact he also had gular edema, I think there was other systems that were damaged. I wish I had found these forums before he was ill.

Jim, your recommending these liquid supplements for routine use? I use herptivite and powdered calciums. Are they totally useless? That is all I have used for my veiled. If using the liquid calcium how do you supplement the D3? Also I have a very baby panther whose weight doesn't even register on my gram scale so how would I dose him?

Yes. Liguids are better than the powders, in all ways except having the method of administering them them. It is not that the powders are so much "useless". Just that they are lacking. Which is as "useless" with chameleons, as you will have to make up the shortcomings of such. If you have UVB, or real sun, no need to worry about D3. D3 is an enormously over-hyped concern in Forums.

As for your little guy, he is too small to administer the liquids to. He was also born with a supply of essential vitamins. Dust him until he is about 5-6" total, then switch to liquids.

 

[CarlC]

I've used Poly-Vi-Sol or something similar with freshly imported saltwater fish that were in quarantine with great results. I would soak their food in it diluted with some water. Never thought of using it on the chameleons though. Great idea Jim!

Carl

 

[Chameleon Company]

I've used Poly-Vi-Sol or something similar with freshly imported saltwater fish that were in quarantine with great results. I would soak their food in it diluted with some water. Never thought of using it on the chameleons though. Great idea Jim!

Carl

LOL ... and I never thought of using it on saltwater fish, but I haven't had such for about 25 years !

Liquid vitamins are far superior to powders. Poly-Vi Sol is a great broad-based vitamin. The Fluker product is very similar in content, except at only 50-60% concentration as P-V-S, and costing more. But I applaud the Flukers, as liquid vitamins are a tough sell for reptiles ............. although no self-respecting homo-sapien Mother would "dust" her Gerber baby food with a powder ...............

There is no quality vitamin A or E in the powders, for starters.

Good luck !

 

[KevinN1]

Great! Thank you for that information Jim. I'm definitely going to try those suggested alternative supplements. I really hope they do the trick. I'll share a future thread if Yoshi's symptoms disappear. I appreciate everyone's input, thank you all!

 

[ridgebax1]

Kevin, best of luck with Yoshi! I am going to try the liquids as well. Please do post updates. Pete never stopped grabbing his legs so he had to stay in a low to the ground environment. He definitely hurt his back when he fell so I don't know if that played a part too.

 

[browncofan]

Liquid Vitamin Question

How do you administer the liquid vitamins?
Can you inject a feeder with the vitamin?
Do you just inject one feeder a day for calcium and then vitamins once a week or once every other week?

Thanks

 

[Chameleon Company]

How do you administer the liquid vitamins?
Can you inject a feeder with the vitamin?
Do you just inject one feeder a day for calcium and then vitamins once a week or once every other week?

Thanks

Post # 7:

Two drops orally per 50g of chameleon every 3 days, until symptoms are gone. Then dose once weekly. Far more effective than the powders.

I note in the same post how to get the chameleon to open their mouth. Just grab them behind the head, and agitate if needed.

However, if you want to swab enough feeders, that you then hand feed, you certainly can do it that way. Actually injecting a feeder would seem to be an ineffective hassle, as you will kill the feeder quickly, but then still have to get the chameleon to eat several of them.

 

[fluxlizard]

Do you really use liquid for all those breeders and offspring Jim?

On that schedule is calcium powder still necessary?

 

[Chameleon Company]

Do you really use liquid for all those breeders and offspring Jim?

On that schedule is calcium powder still necessary?

I use no powders here. Not a one. Haven't for years. But I also clearly do not hand-dose my critters.

I have other means of getting the liquids to them. While a few know my methods, I do not publish them. Let the Chinese and Japanese and all the rest who have yet to catch up with me figure out a few things on their own ........... while they keep buying from me.