Please help - why are my babies dying?

[hinoco1225]

I have a clutch of young veiled chameleon babies that are dying fast and I don't know why or what to do. The first one died just a couple of weeks ago, and 15 of them have died as of today. This is what happens: All babies seem to be eating, drinking and acting normal, until one of a baby's eyes starts to swell. That baby starts to keep its eyes closed, and within a couple of days it typically dies. Most of them look normal other than one of their eyes being swollen when they die, but a few of them had black spots of their face or abdomen when I found them. I will post pictures. (And yes, it seems to be only one of their eyes that actually swells, although they start to keep both of them closed).

I thought maybe it was some type of disease or something going around the veileds, but just yesterday I noticed my baby ambilobe panther's eye starting to swell. Both of its eyes are shut today. This chameleon is kept in a separate room, nowhere near the veiled babies. I've been racking my brains, and the only thing I can think of is that maybe there's some kind of toxin or bacteria in the air of my apartment. I did have some water damage on my ceiling about a month ago... Perhaps that wasn't adequately taken care of?

I have been hesitating to see a vet because I have my doubts that they will know what's going on or be able to help, but I am going to go ahead and do it anyway. In the meantime, any advice/ideas/thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

Chameleon Info:
Your Chameleon - Both veileds and ambilobe panthers, between 6 weeks and one week old
Handling - None
Feeding - Pinhead to 1/8 crickets (gutloaded with Cricket Crunch, veggies, and occasional fruit), fruit flies
Supplements - None yet
Watering - Hand misting using a pump mister several times per day (last misting around 5 pm to leave enough time for the cages to dry out before lights off)
Fecal Description - Mostly brown/white, occasional orange tint to some urates. These are captive bred babies that have never been tested for parasites.
History -
The veileds are from a clutch of 36 eggs that was laid on December 31st, 2011. 34 of the eggs hatched between 8/26 and 9/1 and one more egg hatched 9/7. The last egg did not hatch.

The panther hatched on 9/8 from a clutch of 33 that were laid on 3/13. Only two eggs from this clutch have hatched so far (the second just hatched 10/4 and has not had any visible problems so far).

Cage Info:
Cage Type - Veileds kept in a typical baby bin made from a large Sterlite container with the top left open. Panther is kept in a 12x12x18 Exo Terra. Paper towel substrate for both.
Lighting - Veileds have a ReptiGlo 5.0 and that panther has a Reptisun 5.0; lights on 8 AM - 8 PM
Temperature - Warmest spots are 78-79 F, ambient temps are in the low 70s Humidity - Misting; humidity is nearly always 50% and up
Plants - No live plants currently, just plastic and silk foliage and vines
Placement - Veiled bin is in my living room with low daytime traffic. Panther Exo Terra is on a shelf in my bedroom, also low daytime traffic.
Location - Atlanta, GA

I actually have to run and get an important errand done now before the place closes. So I will be back soon to post pictures and give any more pertinent information that may be needed. Thanks

 

[A1forall]

That sucks!!! Best of luck to you!

 

[kinyonga]

Why aren't you supplementing them?

How did you incubate them? Temperature? How long did they take to hatch?

How are you keeping the adults?

 

[Lathelia]

Are you useing new UVB bulbs or used ones?

 

[Captive Creations]

I am so sorry to hear about your babies. I too have veileds hatched around the same time as your little ones. I would also suggest using supplimention. I use plain calcium everyday on 1st feeding and mutivitamin as well as Calcium with D3 I switch everyother saturday. Just like I have for my adults and it seems to be working great for us. also maybe contacting the vet wouldnt be a bad idea. We also are using a misting sytem with our babies, with a dripper system aswell. I really hope everyone else is okay. it sucks to loose any cham. good luck I hope everything works out. hopefully someone will be able to point you in the right direction.

 

[hinoco1225]

Why aren't you supplementing them?

How did you incubate them? Temperature? How long did they take to hatch?

How are you keeping the adults?

I was told not to supplement them for the first few weeks since they're so sensitive. And pinheads have a lot of calcium anyway, right? Are you saying I should supplement them this early?

I incubated half in moist vermiculite and half in moist perlite. About 3 inches of the medium in two 6-quart Sterlite tubs. No ventilation holes, but I checked on them periodically, thus allowing sufficient air exchange. I kept them in the top of my closet covered with a towel so it would stay dark. My room temps have been in the 74-76 F range the last few months. (It was cooler over the winter of course, allowing for a natural diapause of sorts).

The veileds began hatching at 239 days (almost 8 months). The panther was an early one and hatched at 6 months. Most of its clutch is still incubating.

Why are you asking about the adults? I keep them all individually, in 2x2x3 and 2x2x4 screen cages. Visual dividers between all. Live ficus trees and vines, misting 4 times per day. Feeding crickets, roaches, superworms, silkworms, hornworms, and butterworms. I use Repashy Calcium Plus most days. I also have plain calcium, calcium with D3, Herptivite, Reptivite, Sticky Tongue Miner-All O, all of which I use periodically. I use a multivitamin (instead of calcium) once every other week, rotating between the 3. And with the plain calcium and calcium with D3, I use one of those once a week instead of the Repashy (switching back and forth, so they get each one twice a month). I have both a heat bulb and a UVB bulb on each lizard I have. The heat bulb Wattages vary depending on the species and sex of the animal. All UVB bulbs are less than 6 months old and I keep them labeled so I know when it's time to change them. Those are the main things I've come up with off the top of my head.

 

[hinoco1225]

Are you useing new UVB bulbs or used ones?

I bought them new when the babies hatched.

 

[hinoco1225]

I'm trying to post pictures but my internet isn't strong enough to upload them right now. I may have to try again later.

 

[Chameleons Northwest]

I didn't see mention of a basking bulb. 79 is too cool for basking. They may not be able to absorb nutrients. We strive for about 85-90 for veiled babies. When we didn't offer them enough heat we lost them same as you. Of course they have to be able to move in and out of that highest temp.

 

[Lathelia]

Why are you asking about the adults? I keep them all individually, in 2x2x3 and 2x2x4 screen cages. Visual dividers between all. Live ficus trees and vines, misting 4 times per day. Feeding crickets, roaches, superworms, silkworms, hornworms, and butterworms. I use Repashy Calcium Plus most days. I also have plain calcium, calcium with D3, Herptivite, Reptivite, Sticky Tongue Miner-All O, all of which I use periodically. I use a multivitamin (instead of calcium) once every other week, rotating between the 3. And with the plain calcium and calcium with D3, I use one of those once a week instead of the Repashy (switching back and forth, so they get each one twice a month). I have both a heat bulb and a UVB bulb on each lizard I have. The heat bulb Wattages vary depending on the species and sex of the animal. All UVB bulbs are less than 6 months old and I keep them labeled so I know when it's time to change them. Those are the main things I've come up with off the top of my head.

I don't know much about suplementing babies, but I think your sumlepentation schedule for adults is... too complicated. if you are using Repashy calcium plus there is no need to use multivitamin or d3. That is oversuplementation. I think the only thing you could use is plain calcium, as it was discussed here, repashy c+ is quite rich in vitamins. IMO

I bought them new when the babies hatched.

If you have used ones, I would sugest to switch them. New Uvb is probably too strong for babies. It could be part of problem with their eyes.

 

[rsepiphyte]

Just a thought, but could stress be playing a part in the babies dying? Can you describe the enclosure they are living in? I know when raising Panther and Elliots young they become very aggressive and territorial at a very young age. Ruth

 

[fluxlizard]

It is totally safe to supplement your babies- they aren't as sensitive as the person who gave you the horrible advice believes.

Eyes closing is a common symptom from inadequate supplementation.
Make certain you use a good multivitamin as well as calcium.

I raised many babies over a decade of hatching them with rep-cal with d3 every feeding (which doesn't equal every meal for babies- I always have extra bugs in there for babies to munch on and rep--cal doesn't stick long) and reptivite instead 1x per week.

Never had an oversupplementation issue.

They aren't as sensitive as you might think. It takes way more than simply dusting insects will put into a lizard in a few feedings, or many many months for things to build up.

I'm not telling you what to do- they are your animals- but- if they were mine- I'd save them by using reptivite next meal and following up with regular use of calcium at least. I say reptivite because vit a plays a role with eyes closing like that.

I'm also not telling you to go to my old schedule of d3 every feeding- it isn't necessary under todays lighting and it is safer to rely on good lights (for baby veileds I'd sure recommend calcium every feeding though-- they grow fast. And with your eye problems, I'd sure recommend a multivit with vit a and I have a great track record from reptivite). I'm only telling you what I did in the past (1990s) to relax some of your paranoia about supplement use. If too much is bad, it doesn't mean too little is good.

 

[fluxlizard]

Oh and personally, I feel your temps are too cold.

I learned about eyes closing many years ago the hard way too.

3 problems bring it on in babies most of the time -

inadequate supplementation

and cool conditions during the day- most especially when combined with a constantly damp enclosure. But a damp enclosure can even make them shut their eyes and start dying off when it is warm enough. Make sure your enclosure dries out completely in between mistings if you are misting several times per day. I used to mist my babies by hand and within an hour of all the droplets being gone I would repeat. I was using tubs and glass tanks in those days. The last 10 years or so, all my babies are raised in screen enclosures and I run a misting nozzle over them for about 20 minutes a couple times a day.

Most likely supplementation is your main issue though...