Panther M 2 Years Old - Something off

[naterowley]

I don't have any advice for you unfortunately. I do believe that eye issues due to supplementation can take a long time to clear up but I don't know how long. @Beman might be able to give you a general timeline for that.

I wonder if you can dim the plant light a little just to see how he reacts to it? Just a thought...

I will say though, that you are doing an excellent job with him and if he is improving even 50% that says a lot about his care and how well you are doing with him. Great job! You are an excellent cham-parent

I was considering put what normally people would do for 100% I’d do like 65% for my 100% at least for now and see how that goes? YOLO let’s do it

 

[elizaann2]

I was considering put what normally people would do for 100% I’d do like 65% for my 100% at least for now and see how that goes? YOLO let’s do it

Lol! Let us know how he does! I wonder if his eyes are more sensitive to light due to the issues he is having?

 

[Beman]

Can I see multiple pics of him from all angles?

 

[naterowley]

Can I see multiple pics of him from all angles?

Here is the eye thing I’m referring to, this has been flushed out Twice by the vet. I don’t recall if it’s been in the other eye, but I know for sure it’s been in the left eye

I’m uploading a video as well and will add once it’s done processing - it’s grainy while YouTube is processing

 

[Beman]

Here is the eye thing I’m referring to, this has been flushed out Twice by the vet. I don’t recall if it’s been in the other eye, but I know for sure it’s been in the left eye

I’m uploading a video as well and will add once it’s done processing - it’s grainy while YouTube is processing

Ok so that eye has something more going on with it. If you look at it see how the pupil is not directly lined up with the opening. This could be due to everything from birth defect to infection that sat too long. So it may be something he always has issues with.

Would you be willing to update your husbandry info for me and add pics of the entire cage set up lights down? If so here is the last review you did. Just copy it and paste it into your reply and then delete any info that needs to be updated.

Chameleon Info:

• Your Chameleon - Panther Chamelon, Male, 2 years old, in my care 2 months
• Handling - not often, never grabbing unless it was for medication, only if he walks on hand to check out body and stuff
• Feeding - Crickets, dubia, when i took in was told 10 crickets every other day, im down to 7 “LG” crickets every other day, gut load with carrots and endive / escarole
• Supplements - Arcadia insectivore schedule from website, Arcadia EarthPro A, Calcium Pro MG and Revitalize D3
• Watering - 2-3min mist in AM, 2min mist after basking off and 2-4min mist at night when sleeping, over night fogging
• Fecal Description - Urate is off White with a hint of darkness, not bright but def not yellow at all, feces almost has a “sack“ around it
• History - Was taken to vet right after i took him in due to him closing one eye like it was bothering him, prev owner actually covered the vet visit so not a bad rehoming situation at all, they still have a chameleon. Vet is in Cleveland / Barberton OH. They did an eye rinse and gave 2 meds oral and eye drops. Seemed to fix it for most part but the eye like a week later started to close again, always the same eye, not often at all but rubbing on branches and could just tell it’s bothering him.

Cage Info:

• Cage Type - Screen cage converted hybrid with the yard sign things Chameleon academy suggested with window treatment on door, so only part that is flowing is bottom and top
• Lighting - Arcadia 6% UVB, 36” fixture (the new one is 24”), 60w halogen for basking, a daylight LED bar and plant light
• Temperature - Ambient temp at top of enclosure is around 73ish, heat gun on chameleon while basking after 10mins under it on his highest point hits 85-86, ambient in non basking area lower down is 70ish depending on room temp, overnight it gets to around 65 in there, i have viv electronics thermometer in diff areas
• Humidity - i have these little things that i placed around the cage to get readings mornings its around 90-100 humidity by late day it’s 55-60 humidity after everything has dried out
• Plants - Pothos, Chinese evergreen, prayer plant, money tree and monstera
• Placement - In my office, not much traffic, no fans or heater vents nearby on opposite side of room
• Location - Alliance, OH

Current Problem - Can UVB bulb being bad cause the described behavior? When he’s active he’s active! But he slows down sometimes and closes both eyes now sometimes over the past couple days. I have done saline drops in the eye daily per vets advice if it starts again and it has, i describe below what and why I’ve done it, I haven’t posted in forums in YEARS so apologies if i did something wrong. Today he was the most lethargic, which caused me posting. But he was still active and everything earlier but he “slowed” down and it’s freaking me out.

 

[naterowley]

@Beman Thanks so much for the reply! Yeah, im beginning to think that there may have been more "wrong" with him than I was initially led to believe (prob why I was given everything for free?) I dont like to think that she would lie to me but something isn't adding up from my understanding, she was technically over supplementing him with D3 and not the best cage layout.

Chameleon Info:

• Your Chameleon - Panther Chamelon, Male, 2 years oldish, in my care 4 months, he's from FramsChams August 2021 Clutch
• Handling - not often, never grabbing unless it was for medication, only if he walks on hand to check out body and stuff, he's gotten handled a lot when given meds, otherwise I dont get him to "play" my mom has wanted to see him so I've pulled him to show her him but other than that, more of a look and enjoy lol
• Feeding - 3-4 feeders (depending on size of feeder), 3 times per week. He's eating Silkworms, Crickets and Dubia. I "rotate" them but not religiously, he is mainly silk / crickets with dubia not as often, I like the silkworms better in terms of me personally lol
• Supplements - Arcadia earth pro a every feeding, I do a tong pinch worth in a red solo cup and swirl around before putting in a glass dish that he eats out of that I do not keep in the enclosure. I dump any excess after each feeding and I'm sure to rinse out / get new cup for the D3 feeding. He get's Repashy Calcium Plus LoD around the 1st or 15th(closest feeding to each) I do not give earth pro during this dusting.
• Watering - 3min 30 sec mist king at 6:30am, 3min 30 mist at 6:30p, 1min 30 at 11:57am 1 min at 4am (not sure what it will look like in summer but that's what seems to work for overnight humidity) I also fog 12am - 7am, the enclosure over night based on temp readings from 2 govee sensors goes between 62-66 depending how long it's been since a mist.
• Fecal Description - Urate is off White with a hint of darkness, not bright but def not yellow at all, feces almost has a “sack“ around it, since slowing down the feeding he's pooping every week and half ish
• History - Was taken to vet right after i took him in due to him closing one eye like it was bothering him, prev owner actually covered the vet visit so not a bad rehoming situation at all, they still have a chameleon. Vet is in Cleveland / Barberton OH. They did an eye rinse and gave 2 meds oral and eye drops. Seemed to fix it for most part but the eye like a week later started to close again, always the same eye, not often at all but rubbing on branches and could just tell it’s bothering him. He went to the vet 2 more times for same eye issue, discover a build up and getting a rinse and getting eye drops and oral meds, the med amounts and names are previously listed on prior pages.

Cage Info:

• Cage Type - Screen cage converted hybrid with the yard sign things Chameleon academy suggested with window treatment on door, so only part that is flowing is bottom and top
• Lighting - Arcadia 6% UVB, 24” fixture 7am-7pm, basking is on a thermostat with the prob offset but still under the edge of light set to 83, I have 2 JungleDawn LEDs that are currently set to peek at 70% brightness by noon and run at 70% till 4pm with a ramp down from 4p to 7pm when the LED lights turn off.
• Temperature - Ambient temp at top of enclosure is around 74ish, middle of enclosure is 68, it's under a plant.
• Humidity - My day time humidity at top of enclosure (where it's lowest) looks like it ranges from 50.9-61 depending on part of day, overnight humidity looks like it's been peaking mid 90s and as low as 60 over night (the fogger doesn't hit this sensor so maybe I should move it?)
• Plants - Pothos, Chinese evergreen, prayer plant, alocasia, blue cebo(sp?) pothos,
• Placement - In my office, not much traffic, no fans or heater vents nearby on opposite side of room
• Location - Alliance, OH

Current Problem - Eye problem persisting after 3 vet visits

I actually had drawn out the layout of the lights on top of the enclosure too (never thought this would ever be posted LOL) One thing to note, I know it may look like the UVB runs the whole length of the diagonal branch to top but it's offset after the middle and I checked the range of the UVI for everywhere that it hits with the sensor at his back height and it runs 2.7-4 depending on the spot. In the pic I have on the top the UVB, it's moved up more so it's not quite as angled, I fine-tuned after I got the readings (it's close to how it is now) the drawing is similar lol

Has anyone else seen any eye stuff like this? I'm not trying to hide anything and I'm being transparent about everything, appreciate everyone's help

 

[Beman]

@Beman Thanks so much for the reply! Yeah, im beginning to think that there may have been more "wrong" with him than I was initially led to believe (prob why I was given everything for free?) I dont like to think that she would lie to me but something isn't adding up from my understanding, she was technically over supplementing him with D3 and not the best cage layout.

Chameleon Info:

• Your Chameleon - Panther Chamelon, Male, 2 years oldish, in my care 4 months, he's from FramsChams August 2021 Clutch
• Handling - not often, never grabbing unless it was for medication, only if he walks on hand to check out body and stuff, he's gotten handled a lot when given meds, otherwise I dont get him to "play" my mom has wanted to see him so I've pulled him to show her him but other than that, more of a look and enjoy lol
• Feeding - 3-4 feeders (depending on size of feeder), 3 times per week. He's eating Silkworms, Crickets and Dubia. I "rotate" them but not religiously, he is mainly silk / crickets with dubia not as often, I like the silkworms better in terms of me personally lol
• Supplements - Arcadia earth pro a every feeding, I do a tong pinch worth in a red solo cup and swirl around before putting in a glass dish that he eats out of that I do not keep in the enclosure. I dump any excess after each feeding and I'm sure to rinse out / get new cup for the D3 feeding. He get's Repashy Calcium Plus LoD around the 1st or 15th(closest feeding to each) I do not give earth pro during this dusting.
• Watering - 3min 30 sec mist king at 6:30am, 3min 30 mist at 6:30p, 1min 30 at 11:57am 1 min at 4am (not sure what it will look like in summer but that's what seems to work for overnight humidity) I also fog 12am - 7am, the enclosure over night based on temp readings from 2 govee sensors goes between 62-66 depending how long it's been since a mist.
• Fecal Description - Urate is off White with a hint of darkness, not bright but def not yellow at all, feces almost has a “sack“ around it, since slowing down the feeding he's pooping every week and half ish
• History - Was taken to vet right after i took him in due to him closing one eye like it was bothering him, prev owner actually covered the vet visit so not a bad rehoming situation at all, they still have a chameleon. Vet is in Cleveland / Barberton OH. They did an eye rinse and gave 2 meds oral and eye drops. Seemed to fix it for most part but the eye like a week later started to close again, always the same eye, not often at all but rubbing on branches and could just tell it’s bothering him. He went to the vet 2 more times for same eye issue, discover a build up and getting a rinse and getting eye drops and oral meds, the med amounts and names are previously listed on prior pages.

Cage Info:

• Cage Type - Screen cage converted hybrid with the yard sign things Chameleon academy suggested with window treatment on door, so only part that is flowing is bottom and top
• Lighting - Arcadia 6% UVB, 24” fixture 7am-7pm, basking is on a thermostat with the prob offset but still under the edge of light set to 83, I have 2 JungleDawn LEDs that are currently set to peek at 70% brightness by noon and run at 70% till 4pm with a ramp down from 4p to 7pm when the LED lights turn off.
• Temperature - Ambient temp at top of enclosure is around 74ish, middle of enclosure is 68, it's under a plant.
• Humidity - My day time humidity at top of enclosure (where it's lowest) looks like it ranges from 50.9-61 depending on part of day, overnight humidity looks like it's been peaking mid 90s and as low as 60 over night (the fogger doesn't hit this sensor so maybe I should move it?)
• Plants - Pothos, Chinese evergreen, prayer plant, alocasia, blue cebo(sp?) pothos,
• Placement - In my office, not much traffic, no fans or heater vents nearby on opposite side of room
• Location - Alliance, OH

Current Problem - Eye problem persisting after 3 vet visits

I actually had drawn out the layout of the lights on top of the enclosure too (never thought this would ever be posted LOL) One thing to note, I know it may look like the UVB runs the whole length of the diagonal branch to top but it's offset after the middle and I checked the range of the UVI for everywhere that it hits with the sensor at his back height and it runs 2.7-4 depending on the spot. In the pic I have on the top the UVB, it's moved up more so it's not quite as angled, I fine-tuned after I got the readings (it's close to how it is now) the drawing is similar lol

Has anyone else seen any eye stuff like this? I'm not trying to hide anything and I'm being transparent about everything, appreciate everyone's help


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Ok so everything and I mean everything in your husbandry is on point... Cage is on point as well.

When does he bed down for the night? Lights off at 7pm and then your last misting before that is at 6:30pm right? Does he like the mistings or run from them?

 

[naterowley]

Ok so everything and I mean everything in your husbandry is on point... Cage is on point as well.

When does he bed down for the night? Lights off at 7pm and then your last misting before that is at 6:30pm right? Does he like the mistings or run from them?

Well, he doesn't LOVE the misting but he doesn't hide, unless he's like directly under the misting head, if he's not near the head I've seen him like put his tongue out and get some mist on it which I never got to see with me hand misting him before so that's a newer behavior. He normally drinks right after the misting. In terms of bedding down it's hard to say since he closes his eyes more than he should. Previous owner told me that he always would either sleep an hour before before lights off and with the winter change it's been like 5:30ish I've noticed him slowing down but im not sure if that's his eye issue or sleeping spot, he hasn't seemed to find a spot he ALWAYS goes to but has frequent spots. I tried to do a misting at 3pm before but it didnt totally dry out by the next misting so I wasn't sure if I should keep it up (he did drink at 3p sometimes) I've been scare of RI, he hasn't gaped or anything to show signs of it and vet didnt see anything wrong with him any of the times he's been there. But clearly the eye stuff isn't NOTHING lol so I'm just hoping someone may know what it is or if they've experienced it. I'm down to do a FaceTime or w/e if someone really wants to hammer me with questions and see things and if that's he he's gonna be that's fine I just dont want to think im causing him any more harm than he's already in with this issue. You read and hear if his eyes closed he's dying etc and that just doesn't do good for a brain over a couple months of having him lol im down for guesses even haha

 

[Camiezone]

One of my boys was doing similar behaviors w one eye, so I took him to my herb vet, Dr. Greek.
(He is excellent, n I'm so lucky to just be 10 min away)
He flushed his eyes really good and gave me this ointment, that I with extremely clean hands, had to smear and swirl into and onto chameleons eye 2 times a day. Making sure it got into the actual eye, (they are really good at zipping eye turrets closed as protection of their most important bodypart..
It works wonders. It feels like a lubricant, so they don't mind it at all( actually I think they like a good eye rub, lol)
Chameleons do take along time to show improvements sometimes, just continue following vets directions.
I have used it since on any chameleon that seems bothered w eyes, and it works everytime.
The faster any health issue arise, the faster they will improve.

DISCLAIMER: I'm not a vet and don't recommend using prescribed meds without consulting a vet!

IT IS CRUCIAL TO WASH HANDS BETWEEN EACH EYE SO NOTHING IS TRANSFERED.

 

[Camiezone]

And I completely agree with other member, your doing a FANTASTIC job with him.
What an improvement. He looks fantastic and so does the enclosure.
He's handtame enough for you to carefully take him outside for some natural sunrays. The sun is their best healer. Just be careful and don't take your eyes off him. 15-20 min is magic

 

[naterowley]

One of my boys was doing similar behaviors w one eye, so I took him to my herb vet, Dr. Greek.
(He is excellent, n I'm so lucky to just be 10 min away)
He flushed his eyes really good and gave me this ointment, that I with extremely clean hands, had to smear and swirl into and onto chameleons eye 2 times a day. Making sure it got into the actual eye, (they are really good at zipping eye turrets closed as protection of their most important bodypart..
It works wonders. It feels like a lubricant, so they don't mind it at all( actually I think they like a good eye rub, lol)
Chameleons do take along time to show improvements sometimes, just continue following vets directions.
I have used it since on any chameleon that seems bothered w eyes, and it works everytime.
The faster any health issue arise, the faster they will improve.

DISCLAIMER: I'm not a vet and don't recommend using prescribed meds without consulting a vet!

IT IS CRUCIAL TO WASH HANDS BETWEEN EACH EYE SO NOTHING IS TRANSFERED.

I'm not opposed to calling my vet and asking her thoughts on it, I'll let her know at least, doesn't hurt to try! Did you have the same goop almost? The vet noted from the last flush it was clear. THANK YOU for sharing your experience with me.

 

[Camiezone]

I'm not opposed to calling my vet and asking her thoughts on it, I'll let her know at least, doesn't hurt to try! Did you have the same goop almost? The vet noted from the last flush it was clear. THANK YOU for sharing your experience with me.

PicSso didn't have the goop, I believe that chameleon infection is a thicker substance unlike humans yellow infection. I have never had a chameleon have advanced infection, so I'm not completely sure. Picasso (my cham) was starting to close one eye and excess rubbing it and just seemed bummed out. I couldn't see anything in his eye and flushing it w saline wasn't fixing it. I flush eyes by squiring w good amount of sprayforce on bottle to ensure it gets inthere, you will see the inside of turret fill up w the liquid, and Cham will be rotating eye while turret is closed.
They do have a clear/whiteish soft eye protecting film in-between the turret and eyeball, acts like our eyelashes.
It's there to catch any debris etc.maybe that whats you can see, maybe it's a bit bigger or looser due to his long term eye issues??
This is all just guess work on my end.

 

[naterowley]

What's the thoughts on me doing the 3-4pm mist when he's more awake for 2min and then do a min or so at 7:30 AFTER lights off?

edit: just watched his 6:30p one and he was pretty uninterested in the misting. With him being on the meds prior I've been very conscious of dehydration and making sure he get's water which is why I even tried the 3pm misting which he did interact with better. I know the consensus about drying out which is why I stopped it but just brain storming if it was at 4ish or 430 it would be later in the day giving the enclosure time to dry from 630 long sesh

 

[Beman]

Well, he doesn't LOVE the misting but he doesn't hide, unless he's like directly under the misting head, if he's not near the head I've seen him like put his tongue out and get some mist on it which I never got to see with me hand misting him before so that's a newer behavior. He normally drinks right after the misting. In terms of bedding down it's hard to say since he closes his eyes more than he should. Previous owner told me that he always would either sleep an hour before before lights off and with the winter change it's been like 5:30ish I've noticed him slowing down but im not sure if that's his eye issue or sleeping spot, he hasn't seemed to find a spot he ALWAYS goes to but has frequent spots. I tried to do a misting at 3pm before but it didnt totally dry out by the next misting so I wasn't sure if I should keep it up (he did drink at 3p sometimes) I've been scare of RI, he hasn't gaped or anything to show signs of it and vet didnt see anything wrong with him any of the times he's been there. But clearly the eye stuff isn't NOTHING lol so I'm just hoping someone may know what it is or if they've experienced it. I'm down to do a FaceTime or w/e if someone really wants to hammer me with questions and see things and if that's he he's gonna be that's fine I just dont want to think im causing him any more harm than he's already in with this issue. You read and hear if his eyes closed he's dying etc and that just doesn't do good for a brain over a couple months of having him lol im down for guesses even haha

What's the thoughts on me doing the 3-4pm mist when he's more awake for 2min and then do a min or so at 7:30 AFTER lights off?

edit: just watched his 6:30p one and he was pretty uninterested in the misting. With him being on the meds prior I've been very conscious of dehydration and making sure he get's water which is why I even tried the 3pm misting which he did interact with better. I know the consensus about drying out which is why I stopped it but just brain storming if it was at 4ish or 430 it would be later in the day giving the enclosure time to dry from 630 long sesh

Sorry I had a really long work day so it took me some time to get back to the forum.

Ok when do you kick off your basking lamp for the day so that your temps can start cooling? What I am thinking is running a long misting like 6-7 minutes before he totally beds down. This way temps are lower if basking is off for the day. This way if he does have something with the eye bugging it it would give him more opportunity to clean it. I am not saying something is stuck in it but if it is irritated due to whatever the actual issue is then a longer misting would help keep it cleaner if he cleans it more regularly.

You do not need to stress an RI as long as your not pumping heat in and moisture then add in bad ventilation. And I do not stress the cage not drying out except when it comes to the first misting throughout the day. I have a misting at 3:30pm and then 5:30pm and mine does not dry out. Then I have another misting at 6:30 when my lights kick off. I also have a full hybrid cage and my temps at that point in the afternoon before these mistings start sit right about 72-75ish. I have had this schedule since I moved to AZ almost 3 years ago. And I have never dealt with an RI. If that makes you feel better. My heat kicks off at 2:30 pm every day.

 

[naterowley]

Great, that does help, I feel like I’m finally getting used to behaviors and actions that I would notice small changes in behavior even if I do only know him as not so perfectly healthy grif. Only thing I’m concerned about is the temp dropping too quickly in terms of ambients in the winter time before he goes to bed. I do have an oil space heater that I have setup to run on nights when our temps in Ohio will be below 28ish his ambient will drop to as low as 59 if I don’t and that happened twice and scared me enough to run the oil space heater at medium about 5 feet from his enclosure on about 40% temp knob and it gets them to 65 and I feel better. I’ll prob have to go higher once we get closer to teens and 0’s

I’ll play around with it and re setup the 3p being the 4:15 misting at 4pm when he’s more likely to be active with his eyes open. Generally he’s aware enough that when I walk in the office I can see him open his eyes and I also catch him keeping one eye closed (this can be either eye and he’s got his other open.

 

[Beman]

Great, that does help, I feel like I’m finally getting used to behaviors and actions that I would notice small changes in behavior even if I do only know him as not so perfectly healthy grif. Only thing I’m concerned about is the temp dropping too quickly in terms of ambients in the winter time before he goes to bed. I do have an oil space heater that I have setup to run on nights when our temps in Ohio will be below 28ish his ambient will drop to as low as 59 if I don’t and that happened twice and scared me enough to run the oil space heater at medium about 5 feet from his enclosure on about 40% temp knob and it gets them to 65 and I feel better. I’ll prob have to go higher once we get closer to teens and 0’s

I’ll play around with it and re setup the 3p being the 4:15 misting at 4pm when he’s more likely to be active with his eyes open. Generally he’s aware enough that when I walk in the office I can see him open his eyes and I also catch him keeping one eye closed (this can be either eye and he’s got his other open.

I would try it and see if the longer mistings trigger him to clean it more. Just make sure the cage heat has been off for 30 minutes to start dropping temps.

Now one thing to note do you know how much this boy weighs and his total length? Reason why I ask is his fat pads in the cheeks and in the casque are holding quite a bit of fat. I know you are only feeding 3-4 feeders 3 days a week but are you working on weight loss and monitoring it? And if I already asked this in the thread please ignore me... I have been working too much and trying to keep up with the forum threads I am in. And perhaps responding late at night after a 12 hour day is not my best idea

 

[naterowley]

He is 15” and 186 grams as of 12/17/2023
he was 191 grams at his first visit in September 2023 can’t remember the date lol
I don’t have his snout to vent length, his length is def an ish not what I’d call scientific I’ll get his snout to vent next time I remember to if I have him out to check on him lol

 

[Beman]

He is 15” and 186 grams as of 12/17/2023
he was 191 grams at his first visit in September 2023 can’t remember the date lol
I don’t have his snout to vent length, his length is def an ish not what I’d call scientific I’ll get his snout to vent next time I remember to if I have him out to check on him lol

Ok so a little heavy. But you already have him on a diet right?

 

[naterowley]

Ok so a little heavy. But you already have him on a diet right?

Yes I do, have avoided horn worms except 3 times when on his meds to keep him hydrated better

Here is what today looked like, the reason I had the 3p mist was that drop below 50 was happening around then. Temps look nice though

 

[Camiezone]

I think his numbers sound perfect, I feel that weight to exercising ratio, Is more important. Some of my boys weigh over 200, but are also 19 inches long tip to tip. They may be a tad overweight, but they are out exercising everyday on my track, aren't we all maybe a tiny tad too overweight, especially after all that yummy Xmas food, lol.
That's just my 2 cents anyways.
Dr. Greek calls my boys perfect specimens.
Let us know what your vets feedback is on the ointment I wrote about earlier. It'll be interesting to compare "notes"