Orange Head (Eublaberus posticus) Roach Cannibal Connundrum

[Franquixote]

I have a colony of orange heads which are being kept under what I believe are ideal conditions. Lots of room, fresh food and a good gel water source (along with a little condensation on 1-2 sides for fresh droplets of water). The problem is that if I give them a small amount of animal protein in the form of either a gutload with poultry products or their absolute favorite which is the Mazuri "Better Feeder" chow which has a variety of animal proteins (pork blood, poultry, and fish at least) they will lay off the nymphs a bit but then I risk gout when feeding them to my panther. If I dial back the animal protein then they eat every last nymph.
I have a colony of dubias which are showing explosive growth being gutloaded with just a variety of healthy non-animal food so I don't think I am doing something fundamentally wrong.
The orange heads enclosure is twice as big- a 40 quart Sterilite with about 8 egg crate type structures - actually coffee cup holders which they like because they can crawl through them and it doesn't trap moisture the same way egg crates do- and there are about 40 adults minimum.
They even go after small tank mates if not given their animal protein.
Seems like a no-win situation! I was thinking I could give them a lot of animal protein and then separate the nymphs, but to be honest I'm not sure that they are THAT much different from the dubias nutritionally speaking, especially if I put the nymphs on a low protein diet.
I'm considering closing shop on them. I'm stretched thin already with the time, effort, and money I have for the chameleon and thinking that a colony of walking sticks might be a better use of resources.
Thoughts?

 

[Scottsquatch]

Walking sticks are more work than roaches and eat much less of a variety.

 

[jamest0o0]

What?! My orange heads thrive without pretty much doing anything other than keeping their temperatures right. My chams also like them more, and they have a softer body. Different insects will offer different nutrients, but orangeheads will definitely offer much more than sticks if you have to choose(from gutloading to overall 'meat'). I'd imagine sticks are more work too as mentioned.

Why are you even feeding animal protein? Roaches store uric acid and that's just risking gout. I only give mine veggies/fruit and the occasional nuts/seeds for some protein. I've had hundreds, maybe thousands of orange heads from like 100 in less than a year.

 

[Franquixote]

Read above- they cannibalize each other if I don't feed them protein. Whole point of the thread : )
The orange heads most certainly do NOT have a softer body!!! Even sub adults are built like tanks, a fully grown dubia I can grab with a forceps on the first try, even a small orange head will slip out of a forceps even under considerable squeezing! The amount of pressure needed to grab an orange head would squish a dubia in half.
They are definitely orange heads too, but maybe I have a particularly tough strain.

 

[NickTide]

Have you tried alfalfa? Are you sure it is animal protein they crave and not just a higher protein? Other than that is the only thing I could think of is that separating feeders for a week or 2 to un-gutload them of the animal protein and re-gutload them with plant proteins. I dont know how to tag someone but CF member "Andee" really knows her bugs. I know them fairly well but she really studies them,

Maybe you need to start a new colony that never gets animal protein. just an after thought.

I agree, stick bugs are a lot more work.

 

[Franquixote]

They get a gutload with vegetable protein already, including alfalfa along with dozens of other plant materials containing protein!

 

[jamest0o0]

@Andee does know her bugs and I have a feeling she's going to agree with me here . You mentioned feeding the mazurti gutload crap which is animal protein,you even said "if I dial back the animal protein" so that's why I asked why you're feeding it to begin with. Not that it is influencing cannibalism, but just as advice on safe practices.

I would just offer more plant proteins, nuts, seeds, etc. I really never heard of anyone having this issue significantly. I'd say the main causes would be not enough space or protein in the diet.

And actually orangeheads are much softer/thin shelled/whatever you want to call it. They have better meat to shell ratio, the reason they're hard to pick up with tongs is because they're slick and fast. Even just watching chams eat the two, they will chew up orange heads into pieces without problem, but often have to swallow dubias almost whole. I would also be okay feeding off an adult orangehead to an appropriate sized chameleon, while I'd try not to feed a ton of adult dubias with their hardened black shells.

 

[Franquixote]

Welp, I guess we will have to agree to disagree because regardless of the kind or amount of plant protein (peas, soy, etc.) they are eating nymphs and any smaller than themselves. The container is about 3.5 feet by 2 feet by 2 feet, no way that's the problem, and as far as a medium dubia vs. medium orange head my direct experience is that he not only takes twice as long to chew them up but there are pieces of chitin in the feces which never happens with dubia. Also, I tend to wash medium sized roaches and feed them singly, and everything from their legs to their carapace is much harder- I agree they are slicker, but given the same pressure from a forceps, a dubia will literally pinch almost in half anywhere I grab them whereas the orange heads shell does not deform at all. They are all from one large roach breeder so perhaps I have a variation that has very thick shells. I will pick some up at the reptile show next weekend to compare, but I maintain they are thicker shelled and much more aggressive as well as much more voracious for all types of food offered but especially for animal protein.

 

[laurie]

I have a colony of orange heads which are being kept under what I believe are ideal conditions. Lots of room, fresh food and a good gel water source (along with a little condensation on 1-2 sides for fresh droplets of water). The problem is that if I give them a small amount of animal protein in the form of either a gutload with poultry products or their absolute favorite which is the Mazuri "Better Feeder" chow which has a variety of animal proteins (pork blood, poultry, and fish at least) they will lay off the nymphs a bit but then I risk gout when feeding them to my panther. If I dial back the animal protein then they eat every last nymph.
I have a colony of dubias which are showing explosive growth being gutloaded with just a variety of healthy non-animal food so I don't think I am doing something fundamentally wrong.
The orange heads enclosure is twice as big- a 40 quart Sterilite with about 8 egg crate type structures - actually coffee cup holders which they like because they can crawl through them and it doesn't trap moisture the same way egg crates do- and there are about 40 adults minimum.
They even go after small tank mates if not given their animal protein.
Seems like a no-win situation! I was thinking I could give them a lot of animal protein and then separate the nymphs, but to be honest I'm not sure that they are THAT much different from the dubias nutritionally speaking, especially if I put the nymphs on a low protein diet.
I'm considering closing shop on them. I'm stretched thin already with the time, effort, and money I have for the chameleon and thinking that a colony of walking sticks might be a better use of resources.
Thoughts?

 

[laurie]

I would sort the babies out from the adults! I keep orange heads for my parsons, and I remove the Babis about once a week. Just how I do it.
Where can you get a colony of sticks? My parsons loves those.

 

[jamest0o0]

Honestly dude. Your threads always seem to be turning a mountain out of a mole hill I think you need to take a breath and give it time. I know my experiences directly contradict what you're saying, but I've had great success with orangeheads(along with many others), all of my feeders, and chameleons so idk what else to tell you. I maintain that orangeheads make one of the best/or the best staple feeder so that's all I have for you at this point. And what... you wash your roaches?...

@laurie just curious why you do this? Mine do fine all together. No intention to criticize, just wondering

 

[NickTide]

I would sort the babies out from the adults! I keep orange heads for my parsons, and I remove the Babis about once a week. Just how I do it.
Where can you get a colony of sticks? My parsons loves those.

andee and nic Barta both have sticks.

 

[Andee]

Orange heads need 20% protein but you are not providing ideal conditions. They need substrate. I have told this to many people and I think I have told this to you sweetie. They need high humidity a combo of this and high protein and less cannibalism should happen. They do not do well without substrate in my experience. And many roach keepers who keep them for the love of the species agree.

 

[Franquixote]

I've given it 6 months, and I have had great success with dubias. I may overthink things, but this post was made after watching nymphs and small roaches disappear over the course of 3 months so I'm hardly jumping the gun.
As far as washing the roaches, I feed singly to avoid escapees and do that when they have been roaming in the enclosure for more than 24 hours because in most cases they have been in contact with feces and wet substrate that's crawling with who knows what. Just good hygiene. Chameleons in the wild don't contend with the same conditions created by enclosures. They are exposed to sunlight, rain, and walk over more terrain that is inevitably "cleaner" because germs are not concentrated in the same way they are in enclosures.
Not sure why your adults don't eat the nymphs, but mine do despite being well-fed and cared for according to everything I've read.

 

[Franquixote]

AH HA! Makes perfect sense now!
The nymphs burrow a bit to escape I guess?
If I do coir with springtails will that work? Will the springtails take care of frass or do you still need to replace/clean the substrate?
Thanks so much Andee!

 

[jamest0o0]

@Andee you're right about the substrate. I started not using any though and they still reproduced like... roaches. Lol. I overlooked that I guess because there's about 2 inches of frass, dead roaches, melts, and dry food on the bottom of my bin. The smaller ones tend to burrow in it while most of the medium+ hang on the egg flats.

 

[jamest0o0]

Springtails probably won't survive from how rough the roaches can be. Isopods do great though. The frass will still be there, but I don't bother cleaning my roach bins unless there is mold. The nymphs eat the frass as well.

 

[Franquixote]

And that's where your point about my overthinking comes in! I never let anything build up, I leave only enough frass for nymphs and clean the bins every few weeks to almost spotless condition. In fact I was going to set aside 2 hours today to do all the bins.
Don't your orange heads stink up the whole room without regular cleaning?

 

[jamest0o0]

Sorry for coming off a little rude btw. Just a long day lol. I need to remind myself sometimes that when I started I overthought just about every possible aspect. But just wanted to give you my experiences and advice.

My roaches are all in a heated room in the basement(I have like 10 feeder bins down there). I really don't ever clean them other than pull out anything moldy. They don't smell at all either. IME orangeheads only really smell when they are crowded. I remember having them in a small bin(probably like foot and a half length by half foot width), they smelled so bad. I could barely get near them. Now since they are in a large 20-30ish gallon bin I don't notice it at all.

 

[Andee]

Orange heads only "smell" when putting off defensive odors when crowded or threatened OR when there is something molding or disease.