New Humidifier to test the "Naturalistic Approach"

Decadancin

Moderatoris Americanus
Staff member
You know I have been all for this.


However I just seen this, and they bring up some interesting points.

https://www.madcham.de/en/nebler-brunnen-und-wasserfaelle/

So now, I am not really sure where I stand lol.

However, would a heat humidifier solve the issues, they mention?

I mean I guess it wouldn't. Idk.

Maybe, if we used a separate fogger (we do, or I do, OP does) and use a UV disinfectant light to disinfectant the water supply? Idk, has to be a way to have our fog, and disinfect it too (haha)

So, even the article states prolonged WET conditions. That would potentially cause health issues faster which is why I have always suggested allowing the enclosure to dry out between mistings and before lights out. I am using the fogger for a few hours overnight as of now and I don't notice any water build-up, just higher humidity (the desired effect for this scenario). I have not noticed any real drop in temps overnight yet until the first misting of the day which occurs about an hour after lights come on.

Definitely a no-go in my opinion on warm mist. That would definitely be more conducive to bacteria growth.
 

Decadancin

Moderatoris Americanus
Staff member
If i sticky my head into my foggers mist and inhale it's unpleasant for my longs, I tried... That was enough reason for me to not completely fog the enclosure.
I don't notice any odor in the enclosure while fogging.
 

cyberlocc

Chameleon Enthusiast
If i sticky my head into my foggers mist and inhale it's unpleasant for my longs, I tried... That was enough reason for me to not completely fog the enclosure.
Well, your not a reptile :p.

But seriously though, IDK bad or good on that front.

That said, I think some of that also may depend on where you live? You have to remember, Madgascar, has a strong thick fog, and 100% humidity pretty kuch every single night. That's where this idea came from.

Their bodies, may or may not be more adpated to breathing that fog.

However, this is also another vein. But also paticularly intesting to the idea.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3922954/


They are saying Cool Mist humidifiers are dangerous even to humans, due to the bacteria.

Why is it that we want to use cool mists? What's wrong with the warm mist? Surely it will cool when it hits the cages air. Obviously, we ain't blowing straight into the chams face.

So, even the article states prolonged WET conditions. That would potentially cause health issues faster which is why I have always suggested allowing the enclosure to dry out between mistings and before lights out. I am using the fogger for a few hours overnight as of now and I don't notice any water build-up, just higher humidity (the desired effect for this scenario). I have not noticed any real drop in temps overnight yet until the first misting of the day which occurs about an hour after lights come on.

Definitely a no-go in my opinion on warm mist. That would definitely be more conducive to bacteria growth.
Well, you may want to have a look at the study above.

The bacteria is not growing in the fog, it's already in the water. Even if you wash it, and clean it everyday will their be bacteria a few minutes later.

Warm mist humidifiers boil the water, that kills the bacteria. That said you'll likely pick it back up through the fogger hose. I don't think that study is using hoses.

As to the rest.

Well, that all largely depends on enclosure setup. I am a glass man, (or enclosed rather) and have a fogger run on a plant Viv now. Every night, and there is 100% a temp drop, that happens when the fogger turns on. The humidity raises, and the temp drops in uniform.

It's about 1% every min, raise of humidity, and 1° F every 2 mins. Until it hits 100%, and about a 7-8° drop.

And unlike a screen cage, mine can and does, fill up with fog to the point you can barely see through it, and it does hit 100% humidity and stay there with the fogger going.
 
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Decadancin

Moderatoris Americanus
Staff member
My only worry with this project is the animal breathing in the cool mist and essentially inhaling larger amounts of water into his longs.
There should be a good distance between fog and animal so the mist can be 'absorbed' into the air.

Anyways I will soon whip out the humidifier and join the project, I think I will just have the mist run against the rear wall of the enclosure so It can spread out there.
So the chameleon isn't breathing in water (I know you know that) and it doesn't work like some of the foggers I have seen. There is, as mentioned, a fine cloud of moisture that is dry to the touch. After prolonged exposure at very close range there would be some moisture build up. With many of the foggers I've seen on the market for pets, there is an almost instant build up of droplets. This is such a fine mist that it is visible, but quickly disperses into the air. There is no water on the surfaces in the morning and my enclosure is only screen on the sides and top.

Humidity will get to 75% - 80% by the morning on full blast, and I have not tried it on a lower setting yet.
 

Decadancin

Moderatoris Americanus
Staff member
Well, your not a reptile :p.

But seriously though, IDK bad or good on that front.

That said, I think some of that also may depend on where you live? You have to remember, Madgascar, has a strong thick fog, and 100% humidity pretty kuch every single night. That's where this idea came from.

Their bodies, may or may not be more adpated to breathing that fog.

However, this is also another vein. But also paticularly intesting to the idea.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3922954/


They are saying Cool Mist humidifiers are dangerous even to humans, due to the bacteria.

Why is it that we want to use cool mists? What's wrong with the warm mist? Surely it will cool when it hits the cages air. Obviously, we ain't blowing straight into the chams face.



Well, you may want to have a look at the study above.

The bacteria is not growing in the fog, it's already in the water. Even if you wash it, and clean it everyday will their be bacteria a few minutes later.

Warm mist humidifiers boil the water, that kills the bacteria. That said you'll likely pick it back up through the fogger hose. I don't think that study is using hoses.

As to the rest.

Well, that all largely depends on enclosure setup. I am a glass man, (or enclosed rather) and have a fogger run on a plant Viv now. Every night, and there is 100% a temp drop, that happens when the fogger turns on. The humidity raises, and the temp drops in uniform.

It's about 1% every min, raise of humidity, and 1° F every 2 mins. Until it hits 100%, and about a 7-8° drop.

And unlike a screen cage, mine can and does, fill up with fog to the point you can barely see through it, and it does hit 100% humidity and stay there with the fogger going.

http://www.chameleonnews.com/05OctRouthouska.html
 

cyberlocc

Chameleon Enthusiast
I don't get it?

Was the link because he said the warm mist will promote bacteria growth?

I mean you have to consider the source. No offense to him, but a team of human scientists, are going to be more vetted than a reptile scientist.

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/common-cold/in-depth/humidifiers/art-20048021

I mean, that's the Mayo Clinic, vs Chameleon News, I am going to side with Mayo.


Now warm humidifier causing RIs do to heat, is a whole other story. But as far as bacteria, in the mists, that danger lies with Ultrasonics.


That all said, at this time, I feel people have been doing this long enough, that if bacteria was an issue wouldn't it have presented itself by now?

Someone somewhere would have said, my cham started getting sick after I started fogging. Espeiclaly when there is keepers on EU, that fog exclusively (no misters, just fog)
 
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Decadancin

Moderatoris Americanus
Staff member
I don't get it?

Was the link because he said the warm mist will promote bacteria growth?

I mean you have to consider the source. No offense to him, but a team of human scientists, are going to be more vetted than a reptile scientist.

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/common-cold/in-depth/humidifiers/art-20048021

I mean, that's the Mayo Clinic, vs Chameleon News, I am going to side with Mayo.


Now warm humidifier causing RIs do to hear, is a whole other story. But as far as bacteria, in the mists, that danger lies with Ultrasonics.
Not arguing anything here, just showing the article. Bacteria are more active in warmer temps (reproduce faster) but anything above 40 degrees and below 140 degrees can promote blooms. I believe that any unit kept clean will work, I am not a fan of the warm mist idea though. The author was actually stating that many different techniques are acceptable depending on the specific circumstances.

Boiling water does not seem like something I want near the enclosure, even though the moisture would cool very rapidly. Any of these setups can harbor bacteria if pooling happens in the lines.
 

cyberlocc

Chameleon Enthusiast
Not arguing anything here, just showing the article. Bacteria are more active in warmer temps (reproduce faster) but anything above 40 degrees and below 140 degrees can promote blooms. I believe that any unit kept clean will work, I am not a fan of the warm mist idea though. The author was actually stating that many different techniques are acceptable depending on the specific circumstances.

Boiling water does not seem like something I want near the enclosure, even though the moisture would cool very rapidly. Any of these setups can harbor bacteria if pooling happens in the lines.
Yes, I agree lesser of the evils. I actually while finding those reports seen others of kids being burned by the steam of hot humidifiers.

Likely not a good idea lol.


Though mayo, did bring up, and this may be a good idea for those that keep their house a set temp day and night. Evap coolers.

An Evap would only drop temps by 10f or so, and that is good for night drop anyway. So that may also be something to consider, and with it's filter, there shouldn't be much bacteria. Im sure there is a way to pipe one up, or one sold that is small with a pipe. Shoot we could build are own for the needs fairly easy, not much to an Evap. Then there also would be zero water, or thick fog, just straight humidity, and a temp drop.

The water would also be moving. So that would also help with bacteria prevention. If someone was so inclined they could move the water through filters, and move it all day long.

With a proper controller, it could double as an emergency cage cooler as well. For really hot days.


Another option for those that run their foggers on a separate resovoir then their mister. Could maybe add in propelene glycol. I am not sure if the cool mist would have the same effect, but it was humidified in hospitals as a antibacterial for a long time. Not sure if it would post a health risk on reptiles however.
 
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Goose502

Chameleon Enthusiast
Humidity, even at 100% is invisible. It is invisible because the particle size is too small to see. The “humidifiers” refered to are usually ultrasonic nebulizers. They create water particles much larger than a true humidifier, thus you can see a mist. Water, when nebulized is a respiratory irritant. In the hospital we use normal saline along with meds in our nebulizers, and only use sterile water with humidifiers(invisible humidity). I feel raising humidity at night can be done many ways, but one of the easiest(I say this because I use a glass enclosure with bioactive soil), is simply to mist in the evening. The lights go out, the humidity stays at or near 100% for hours, and in the am, the lights turn back on and humidity starts to drop before the next misting. I’ve never had mildew or fungus but I also have a strong clean up crew. I like the look of the mist holding near the bottom of an enclosure, as long as the “humidifier” is clean with distilled water, I don’t see it hurting a chameleon. The chameleon should be well above where the mist settles.
 

Remkon

Chameleon Enthusiast
Well, your not a reptile :p.
Prove it... put me out in the sun and I'll change color and shed soon after, both are traids of a reptile... Maybe I'm even coldblooded but it's my temperament that keeps me heated. :cautious:

So the chameleon isn't breathing in water (I know you know that) and it doesn't work like some of the foggers I have seen. There is, as mentioned, a fine cloud of moisture that is dry to the touch. After prolonged exposure at very close range there would be some moisture build up. With many of the foggers I've seen on the market for pets, there is an almost instant build up of droplets. This is such a fine mist that it is visible, but quickly disperses into the air. There is no water on the surfaces in the morning and my enclosure is only screen on the sides and top.

Humidity will get to 75% - 80% by the morning on full blast, and I have not tried it on a lower setting yet.
I know you'll act responsably but I don't want to encourage the whole chameleon community to blast their enclosures with fog... It may work very well on montane species, that will likely be better equiped to handle moisture in the air, especially in screen cages, but it may do more harm than good on Veilds for example that live in a dryer climate.

So I'm just trying to preach caution in such a project. It may be the bee's knees for some but be a total disaster in the wrong hands.
 

Decadancin

Moderatoris Americanus
Staff member
Prove it... put me out in the sun and I'll change color and shed soon after, both are traids of a reptile... Maybe I'm even coldblooded but it's my temperament that keeps me heated. :cautious:



I know you'll act responsably but I don't want to encourage the whole chameleon community to blast their enclosures with fog... It may work very well on montane species, that will likely be better equiped to handle moisture in the air, especially in screen cages, but it may do more harm than good on Veilds for example that live in a dryer climate.

So I'm just trying to preach caution in such a project. It may be the bee's knees for some but be a total disaster in the wrong hands.

I agree, I would not recommend this for everyone, and I'm not very happy doing an "experiment" with a chameleon :(. I never did this with Zaphod as I believed veiled chams did not have the high humidity levels of other animals through much of their range. Now, with a panther, I feel it can be beneficial so I am giving it a shot. Besides, I need to be worried more with my chameleon :unsure:...

The whole idea that the only hydration needed is through fogging is not my belief (some seem to think this way) and I still see other benefits of misting during the day and I do not plan to stop, but the idea that humidity goes up at night in nature just makes sense. I think even veileds can benefit from it if done properly. I am just a wreck over the fear of causing any harm to my baby boy!

By the way, Cold-Hearted and Cold Blooded are two different things... :p
 

Remkon

Chameleon Enthusiast
I agree, I would not recommend this for everyone, and I'm not very happy doing an "experiment" with a chameleon :(. I never did this with Zaphod as I believed veiled chams did not have the high humidity levels of other animals through much of their range. Now, with a panther, I feel it can be beneficial so I am giving it a shot. Besides, I need to be worried more with my chameleon :unsure:...

The whole idea that the only hydration needed is through fogging is not my belief (some seem to think this way) and I still see other benefits of misting during the day and I do not plan to stop, but the idea that humidity goes up at night in nature just makes sense. I think even veileds can benefit from it if done properly. I am just a wreck over the fear of causing any harm to my baby boy!

By the way, Cold-Hearted and Cold Blooded are two different things... :p
I got no heart, you know that!
 

cyberlocc

Chameleon Enthusiast
Humidity, even at 100% is invisible. It is invisible because the particle size is too small to see. The “humidifiers” refered to are usually ultrasonic nebulizers. They create water particles much larger than a true humidifier, thus you can see a mist. Water, when nebulized is a respiratory irritant. In the hospital we use normal saline along with meds in our nebulizers, and only use sterile water with humidifiers(invisible humidity). I feel raising humidity at night can be done many ways, but one of the easiest(I say this because I use a glass enclosure with bioactive soil), is simply to mist in the evening. The lights go out, the humidity stays at or near 100% for hours, and in the am, the lights turn back on and humidity starts to drop before the next misting. I’ve never had mildew or fungus but I also have a strong clean up crew. I like the look of the mist holding near the bottom of an enclosure, as long as the “humidifier” is clean with distilled water, I don’t see it hurting a chameleon. The chameleon should be well above where the mist settles.
I also though the fogger was reminscant of a nebulizer lol.

So what do you think about a swamp cooler on the cage haha.

The issue with leaving the cage were through the night, is that it can cause fungal infections and root rot in your plants. Depending of course how wet we are talking.
 

dshuld

Chameleon Enthusiast
I also though the fogger was reminscant of a nebulizer lol.

So what do you think about a swamp cooler on the cage haha.

The issue with leaving the cage were through the night, is that it can cause fungal infections and root rot in your plants. Depending of course how wet we are talking.
So, something like a personal ac unit?
 
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JacksJill

Chameleon Enthusiast
I only have montaines so I wouldn't have a clue if this is good or bad for other species. It's too early to even know if it will work out long term. I not sure if I will continue it thru the rest of the year. I mainly tried it because my air conditioner was dropping my ambient humidity so low at night and to see if I could get a better night time temperature drop without adding more AC. My cage thermometers are reading a 2˚ drop below my thermostat. That might be because they just aren't that accurate. My screen cages are covered so only the front and top are screen.
I do find it interesting that when I test my ultrasonic humidifier after refilling and cleaning it, the only time I run it during the day, my avatar will move into the stream by the nozzle. Normally he hates any kind of breeze. I don't know if he's attracted to the motion of the fog or likes the sensation. The adult females do so but to a lesser extent. Just an observation that tells me it can't be too unpleasant for them.
Like any other aspect of husbandry you want to avoid an over growth of bacteria. The immune system deals with bacteria all day long in moderate amounts. Clearly you don't want to be forcing them into the respiratory system out of a filthy pool of water. I use PVC and don't glue the joints to it can be cleaned easier and run my ultrasonic humidifiers until almost empty and wipe them dry and then let them air dry. I dislike the hose that I see on the reptifogger because it is corrugated and water is only going to pool in the grooves.
 

cyberlocc

Chameleon Enthusiast
So, something like a personal ac unit?
Like a personal swamp cooler.


Someone linked one. I don't see it now, but it was in my email.

Personally I would build one. As you could do so, in a more effiencent way make it small, refileld by your water resovoir, and most important to me, make it have a feed hose just like the fogger.

I have some ideas. We will see.
 

dshuld

Chameleon Enthusiast
Like a personal swamp cooler.


Someone linked one. I don't see it now, but it was in my email.

Personally I would build one. As you could do so, in a more effiencent way make it small, refileld by your water resovoir, and most important to me, make it have a feed hose just like the fogger.

I have some ideas. We will see.
I linked one then found reviews on that model elsewhere and deleted the link. From what I'm seeing though the personal ac units are tiny swamp cooler design of sorts.
 
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