mice?

javsto

New Member
chameleons are called insectivores for a reason.

but there are videos on youtube of ppl feeding mice and lizards to thier pet chams as well as forum members who have made posts of thier jacksons chams eating thier liive babies shortly after giving birth.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3nI_ZqHYvc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9CVBiDSqHo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OrcAJzJzRGY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zKEoho601E

So where you might want to think of them soley as an insectivore, I think they will eat what they want, be it warm or cold blooded, mammal, insect, fish or even fresh fruit
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwSs3s5_1YM
:D:eek:
 

ferretinmyshoes

Veterinarian
Staff member
but there are videos on youtube of ppl feeding mice and lizards to thier pet chams

you can also find tons of videos on YouTube of guys hitting other guys in the nuts for fun - is that good evidence that nut trauma is good for them? I don't think anyone should be using YouTube for their moral compass...or to make any real decisions really...jmo. What an animal is exposed to in captivity may or may not be representative of what it will do under natural conditions in the wild - they're usually not the same.

This discussion has already been had: you can read more about it here. Page 3 starts discussing health considerations. Make your own educated decisions from what others have said.
 

Julirs

New Member
you can also find tons of videos on YouTube of guys hitting other guys in the nuts for fun - is that good evidence that nut trauma is good for them? I don't think anyone should be using YouTube for their moral compass...or to make any real decisions really...jmo. What an animal is exposed to in captivity may or may not be representative of what it will do under natural conditions in the wild - they're usually not the same.

This discussion has already been had: you can read more about it here. Page 3 starts discussing health considerations. Make your own educated decisions from what others have said.

OK-this made me almost spit my drink all over my desk! Too funny!
 

iLik3LIzards

New Member
you can also find tons of videos on YouTube of guys hitting other guys in the nuts for fun - is that good evidence that nut trauma is good for them? I don't think anyone should be using YouTube for their moral compass...or to make any real decisions really...jmo. What an animal is exposed to in captivity may or may not be representative of what it will do under natural conditions in the wild - they're usually not the same.

This discussion has already been had: you can read more about it here. Page 3 starts discussing health considerations. Make your own educated decisions from what others have said.

Although I totally agree, wild chams have been known to eat mice, birds, and other lizards, but this is purely taking advantage of a resource. White-tailed deer, which is a herbivore, have been known to eat fish, mice and birds. But that doesnt mean should pen up a deer and feed it gold fish.
 

ferretinmyshoes

Veterinarian
Staff member
Although I totally agree, wild chams have been known to eat mice, birds, and other lizards, but this is purely taking advantage of a resource. White-tailed deer, which is a herbivore, have been known to eat fish, mice and birds. But that doesnt mean should pen up a deer and feed it gold fish.

Do you have evidence of this? I have never heard of deer going omnivorous and would like to read up on it.
 

antithesis123

New Member
Although I totally agree, wild chams have been known to eat mice, birds, and other lizards, but this is purely taking advantage of a resource. White-tailed deer, which is a herbivore, have been known to eat fish, mice and birds. But that doesnt mean should pen up a deer and feed it gold fish.

White tailed deer eat fish?? Never heard of that one.. Ever!
 

slik100

New Member
Feeding chameleons pinkies once in a while AS A TREAT is not bad for them. Does a human eat something that is distasteful? No. How can an animal that is highly developed socially not recognize what's edible and what isn't? If they didn't like the taste, they wouldn't eat them. That simple. The fact is that chameleons are eating machines and opportunists. The key is not to abuse these characteristics.
 

slik100

New Member
Feeding chameleons pinkies once in a while AS A TREAT is not bad for them. Does a human eat something that is distasteful? No. How can an animal that is highly developed socially not recognize what's edible and what isn't? If they didn't like the taste, they wouldn't eat them. That simple. The fact is that chameleons are eating machines and opportunists. The key is not to abuse these characteristics.
 

Ekaj13

New Member
Feeding chameleons pinkies once in a while AS A TREAT is not bad for them. Does a human eat something that is distasteful? No. How can an animal that is highly developed socially not recognize what's edible and what isn't? If they didn't like the taste, they wouldn't eat them. That simple. The fact is that chameleons are eating machines and opportunists. The key is not to abuse these characteristics.

The problem with your theory is I could easily feed a chameleon something inedible. How many times do you see posts about a chameleon ingesting substrate, etc etc.
 

kaylie

New Member
The problem with your theory is I could easily feed a chameleon something inedible. How many times do you see posts about a chameleon ingesting substrate, etc etc.

I think that was slik's point. They will eat anything, it's up to you to not let them.
 

fluxlizard

Avid Member
've never thought deer were anything but herbivores. Till I saw this thread. I google deer eat fish and found this video-

http://texascryptidhunter.blogspot.c...mnivorous.html

Not a fish, but still crazy. Interestingly enough I found a link about a deer eating fish also...

That is an interesting link. Thanks for posting that one.

Tortoises also do like this- I read about some on an island that regularly eat their own dead. Bert Langerwerf found that his enjoyed feeding on bones somewhat accidentally and so he would leave bones out for his sulcata.

Feeding chameleons pinkies once in a while AS A TREAT is not bad for them. Does a human eat something that is distasteful? No. How can an animal that is highly developed socially not recognize what's edible and what isn't? If they didn't like the taste, they wouldn't eat them. That simple. The fact is that chameleons are eating machines and opportunists. The key is not to abuse these characteristics.

There are some definite flaws with the above logic (humans for example eat and drink things that are horrible for them constantly, that lead to diseases and cancers and all sorts of problems. I'm no exception, many of these "food items" are delicious to me- stuff like twinkies, soda, processed meat, and almost everything these days has corn syrup in it which causes more diabetes than natural sugar and causes other diseases. You can't always go on taste. Curiously, I know some people from another part of the world who actually find the crap that most americans love to eat very distasteful- especially sweet things like cake and soda (too sweet they say) artificial sugar-free sweeteners are horrible for us- yet you can see fat people everywhere guzzling them down like water (actually one study with mice found that the rats actually gained weight on the "diet" sweeteners, along with golf-ball sized tumors eventually).

But I haven't yet read anything that has led me to believe that total avoidance of vertebrate prey is desirable for lizards we usually consider insectivores. I'm not advocating frequent feeding of these items, but an occasional vertebrate prey item may offer nutritional benefits not found in invertebrates. Or maybe not- I don't know, I'm speculating- but when I see someone producing something for 10 generations without introducing fresh wild caught blood besides veileds, I'll be sitting up and paying attention to what they are feeding and how they are supplementing. I haven't seen that person yet.

For that matter, I've yet to read what fat and protein levels are desirable for insectivores. The last time I saw this discussion go the rounds I never saw anyone use data from insectivores, only herbivores when talking about protein. And Americans are fat so we've all heard over and over again how fat is bad, but fat in food is very important- bearded dragon manual points out that commercial lizard pellets are very low in fat and that most feeder insects are relatively high in fat and that a significant amount of fat is an important part of the diet and necessary for proper functioning of the lizard.

And everyone compares other insects to house crickets- I'd like to see firstly what stomachs of wild chameleons contain (kinyongia?) and secondly how those wild food items compare (for purposes of my current train of thought compare as far as fat and protein and chitin goes, but heck, while I'm wishing I'll wish for as much data beyond that as possible as far as vitamin and mineral content) to crickets and other captive food items. And thirdly I wish someone would do a complete work up from wild chameleon blood so various levels of vitamins, calcium, etc could be compared with captive chameleons so captive diets and supplementation could be carefully adjusted in the lab and something in the ballpark could then be offered to captives everywhere. All we are all doing at the moment is taking a really good, fairly educated guess.

I think for a pet owner who isn't trying for multi-generational breeding- yes insects only is a very safe way to go.

For someone trying to get panthers and larger chameleons over multiple generations- maybe very occasional vertebrate prey or a vertebrate prey item prior to breeding might be something to think consider...
 
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javsto

New Member
Feeding chameleons pinkies once in a while AS A TREAT is not bad for them. Does a human eat something that is distasteful? No. How can an animal that is highly developed socially not recognize what's edible and what isn't? If they didn't like the taste, they wouldn't eat them. That simple. The fact is that chameleons are eating machines and opportunists. The key is not to abuse these characteristics.

by distastful do you mean things that the Waldor Astoria was supposedly serving items like pan fried tarantulas, bar-b-q mealworms, chocolate covered locusts or I think ive heard of certain ppl who eat the after birth of thier children, with fried onions and some red wine to swallow it down with. Taste has nothing to do with it.
 
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