Louie is acting STRANGE

celseymarie

Member
Hello!! So I just recently noticed on December 28th that my chameleon acting very strange in his larger enclosure (him hanging off of the vine at the top of the cage, holding on by his front two legs and letting his back legs hang, choosing to be in the dirt mid cage and then at the bottom of the cage). I moved him to a smaller enclosure in order to keep up with his behavior better. Here are his current symptoms: will not eat or drink voluntarily, will not climb, stays in dirt of the enclosure. His grip is very strong on all four legs and tail. I was able to force feed him ONE mealworm on the 2nd and 3rd. I’ve been giving him pedialyte/water/calcium powder soaks for 30 minutes the passed few days. Every time he gets frustrated with me and open his mouth, I sneak drops of water in there to try even harder to keep him hydrated. I also spray the cage very often to keep him hydrated. I turned to calcium SPRAY as of today for the insects (mealworms and crickets) because the calcium powder, I found, was killing them quicker. After the vet today, I tried feeding him smaller sized mealworms of which he just pushed out of his mouth with his tongue
I took him to the vet today and they treated him for a parasite. They gave him antibiotics and medicine to treat a parasite. I asked a bunch of questions regarding my UVB light, gout, and mbd but he completely disregarded it all and said he’s so strong, it doesn’t appear to be those things. I’m afraid he’s been misdiagnosed. I don’t know what to do anymore, please help!! I don’t want him to suffer and I’m just hoping it isn’t too late.

Attached is a photo of him right now at 6:20 pm. I have photos of him from throughout this entire thing if needed.
 

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@celseymarie

It looks like your Cham has MBD. Can you post other pictures?

what lights are you using? And what supplements are you using?

im tagging a couple people that can help a little more than me.

@MissSkittles
@Beman

if you wouldn’t mind filling this out so we can get a better idea of his situation.

Chameleon Info:
  • Your Chameleon - The species, sex, and age of your chameleon. How long has it been in your care?
  • Handling - How often do you handle your chameleon?
  • Feeding - What are you feeding your cham? What amount? What is the schedule? How are you gut-loading your feeders?
  • Supplements - What brand and type of calcium and vitamin products are you dusting your feeders with and what is the schedule?
  • Watering - What kind of watering technique do you use? How often and how long to you mist? Do you see your chameleon drinking?
  • Fecal Description - Briefly note colors and consistency from recent droppings. Has this chameleon ever been tested for parasites?
  • History - Any previous information about your cham that might be useful to others when trying to help you.

Cage Info:
  • Cage Type - Describe your cage (Glass, Screen, Combo?) What are the dimensions?
  • Lighting - What brand, model, and types of lighting are you using? What is your daily lighting schedule?
  • Temperature - What temp range have you created (cage floor to basking spot)? Lowest overnight temp? How do you measure these temps?
  • Humidity - What are your humidity levels? How are you creating and maintaining these levels? What do you use to measure humidity?
  • Plants - Are you using live plants? If so, what kind?
  • Placement - Where is your cage located? Is it near any fans, air vents, or high traffic areas? At what height is the top of the cage relative to your room floor?
  • Location - Where are you geographically located?

Current Problem - The current problem you are concerned about.

--------------

Please Note:
  1. The more details you provide the better and more accurate help you will receive.
  2. Photos can be very helpful.
 
Hello! Your chamelon has what is Called MBD or metabolic bone disease. This is where the bones loose shape and strength. Therefore, they bend and the chamelon has a hard time using their arms and legs. It can be caused by issues in husbandry, supplementation.

He also looks very overweight. Fill in the form attached so we can go over everything with you.
 
Thank you guys so much. As I stated above, I brought him to the vet today and the vet treated him for a parasite and completely avoided the entire idea of having mbd which after researching through here and on google, I thought was an immediate misdiagnosis. When I purchased my chameleon I was honestly never properly educated on other vitamins, but calcium was extremely stressed. Do you think he is in severe shape? I don't want him to suffer. Providing more pictures in my next post.

Chameleon Info:
  • Your Chameleon - veiled chameleon, male, possible 1 year old. I have had him for 8 months.
  • Handling - MAYBE twice a month. A lot more often lately due to soaking him and trying to force feed him.
  • Feeding - What are you feeding your cham? What amount? What is the schedule? How are you gut-loading your feeders? I am feeding him crickets and mealworms, 2-3. once in the morning and once in the evening. I put sweet potatoes and kale in with the crickets.
  • Supplements - What brand and type of calcium and vitamin products are you dusting your feeders with and what is the schedule? I do not use specific vitamins. I have used calcium powder (repticalcium) and just bought the calcium spray today from PetSense in hopes to be able to drop a few drops in his mouth when possible.
  • Watering - What kind of watering technique do you use? How often and how long to you mist? Do you see your chameleon drinking? I give him water through a straw, drop drops in front of him and he engages. misting about 3 times a day, I do not see him drinking other than when I use the straw with him.
  • Fecal Description - Briefly note colors and consistency from recent droppings. Has this chameleon ever been tested for parasites? stool from a couple days ago was yellowish, white, and then normal moist brown. has never tested for parasites.
  • History - Any previous information about your cham that might be useful to others when trying to help you. I bought him from PetSmart.

Cage Info:
  • Cage Type - Describe your cage (Glass, Screen, Combo?) What are the dimensions? I had him in a screened cage. It is about 5ft tall and 3-4ft wide. I now have him in a smaller glass terrarium from PetSmart.
  • Lighting - What brand, model, and types of lighting are you using? What is your daily lighting schedule? I use two 100w red night lights ZOO-MED at night and one ZOO-MED Reptisun 5.0 UVB light and 100w blue light during the day in his bigger cage. I currently use one 100w night light ZOO-MED in the smaller cage at night and the other two ZOO-MED Reptisun 5.0 UVB light and now a 75w blue light.
  • Temperature - What temp range have you created (cage floor to basking spot)? Lowest overnight temp? How do you measure these temps? 70-80 degrees, a hydro-thermo monitor came with the first terrarium.
  • Humidity - What are your humidity levels? How are you creating and maintaining these levels? What do you use to measure humidity? humidity from 50-70, a hydro-thermo monitor came with the first terrarium.
  • Plants - Are you using live plants? If so, what kind? I am using live ivy plants from Home Depot and fake leafy plants from PetSmart.
  • Placement - Where is your cage located? Is it near any fans, air vents, or high traffic areas? At what height is the top of the cage relative to your room floor? Cage is located in the corner of my bedroom, fan being on never effected the temperature.
  • Location - Where are you geographically located? I am located in Picayune, MS.

Current Problem - him possibly having mbd
 
The pictures provided are of his smaller terrarium that he is currently in, the large cage he was in, and photos of him through-out this time when I started noticing odd behavior.
 

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There is a lot of misinformation on the web. I will go over your husbandry, but it is clear to me that the vet you went to is not an experienced chameleon vet. They should have referred you to a vet who knew what they were doing, so shame on them. You need to find a good exotic vet who specializes in or has lots of experience with chameleons so your boy can get calcium injections.
Click expand to see my comments.
Thank you guys so much. As I stated above, I brought him to the vet today and the vet treated him for a parasite and completely avoided the entire idea of having mbd which after researching through here and on google, I thought was an immediate misdiagnosis. When I purchased my chameleon I was honestly never properly educated on other vitamins, but calcium was extremely stressed. Do you think he is in severe shape? I don't want him to suffer. Providing more pictures in my next post.

Chameleon Info:
  • Your Chameleon - veiled chameleon, male, possible 1 year old. I have had him for 8 months.
  • Handling - MAYBE twice a month. A lot more often lately due to soaking him and trying to force feed him. Why do you soak him? I would refrain from doing this as it does not help them, it only causes extra stress, if you are using warm water it could be way too hot for him. What is warm to us is scalding to them.
  • Feeding - What are you feeding your cham? What amount? What is the schedule? How are you gut-loading your feeders? I am feeding him crickets and mealworms, 2-3. once in the morning and once in the evening. I put sweet potatoes and kale in with the crickets. At this age I would only feed him 3 days a week, with 3-5 feeders as not make him overweight. He does a lot of extra weigh. He is a chubby boy. Also, variety is important. You will want to feed him more kinds of bugs, but less often. I'll attach a food and gutload image at the end. Please note that mealworms are not recommended as a staple feeder. There are many other, healthier options available.
  • Supplements - What brand and type of calcium and vitamin products are you dusting your feeders with and what is the schedule? I do not use specific vitamins. I have used calcium powder (repticalcium) and just bought the calcium spray today from PetSense in hopes to be able to drop a few drops in his mouth when possible. I wouldnt use the liquid calcium. You need a calcium with NOD3 at every feeding, except 2 times a month. I like to use the 1st and 15th. On these 2 days you will want a multivitamin WITH D3 like reptivite. Supplements are extremely crucial to the well being of the chameleon.
  • Watering - What kind of watering technique do you use? How often and how long to you mist? Do you see your chameleon drinking? I give him water through a straw, drop drops in front of him and he engages. misting about 3 times a day, I do not see him drinking other than when I use the straw with It is recommended to mist for 2-5 full minutes in the morning, and 2-5 full minutes in the evening. Be very careful feeding him water so he doesnt aspirate it. There is a hole in the front of his mouth that you need to avoid. You could add a dripper and let it run a few hours a day in midday.
  • Fecal Description - Briefly note colors and consistency from recent droppings. Has this chameleon ever been tested for parasites? stool from a couple days ago was yellowish, white, and then normal moist brown. has never tested for parasites.
  • History - Any previous information about your cham that might be useful to others when trying to help you. I bought him from PetSmart.

Cage Info:
  • Cage Type - Describe your cage (Glass, Screen, Combo?) What are the dimensions? I had him in a screened cage. It is about 5ft tall and 3-4ft wide. I now have him in a smaller glass terrarium from PetSmart. It is good to have him in a hosp6bin right now, and his older cage is the perfect size for him once he gets better.
  • Lighting - What brand, model, and types of lighting are you using? What is your daily lighting schedule? I use two 100w red night lights ZOO-MED at night and one ZOO-MED Reptisun 5.0 UVB light and 100w blue light during the day in his bigger cage. I currently use one 100w night light ZOO-MED in the smaller cage at night and the other two ZOO-MED Reptisun 5.0 UVB light and now a 75w blue light. This part is VERY VERY IIMPORTANT. He needs a long, liner T5HO 5.0 or 6% bulb. Not a cool bulb, but a tube bulb. The coil bulbs do not provide adequate amounts of uv. Also, you should not use any lights at night. Chameleons need darkness to be able to sleep. Lack of sleep also causes health concerns.
  • Temperature - What temp range have you created (cage floor to basking spot)? Lowest overnight temp? How do you measure these temps? 70-80 degrees, a hydro-thermo monitor came with the first terrarium. His basking spot, the HOTTEST area, should be between 82-85 max. And then it should cool down from there. You also need a digital thermometer and hydrometer because the analog kinds are terrible and unreliable.
  • Humidity - What are your humidity levels? How are you creating and maintaining these levels? What do you use to measure humidity? humidity from 50-70, a hydro-thermo monitor came with the first terrarium. Ideal daytime humidity for a veiled is between 30-50% MAX. And at night, during the coolest part of the night (like 12-4), your humidity can spike as high as you can get it, like to 100%.
  • Plants - Are you using live plants? If so, what kind? I am using live ivy plants from Home Depot and fake leafy plants from PetSmart. Veileds are notorious for eating plants. It is recommended that you use ALL live plants for veileds. If they try to take a bite oartificial leaves, they could become impacted.
  • Placement - Where is your cage located? Is it near any fans, air vents, or high traffic areas? At what height is the top of the cage relative to your room floor? Cage is located in the corner of my bedroom, fan being on never effected the temperature. If I were you, I would make a little stand to put the tall eenclosur on. Being that chameleons are arboreal and live in trees, they are most comfortable when they can look down on everything. I would make it so the enclosure is around 6+ feet at the very top.
  • Location - Where are you geographically located? I am located in Picayune, MS.

Current Problem - him possibly having mbd He definitely has MBD and does need a good reptile vet.
chameleon-food.jpg
chameleon-gutload.jpg
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There is a lot of misinformation on the web. I will go over your husbandry, but it is clear to me that the vet you went to is not an experienced chameleon vet. They should have referred you to a vet who knew what they were doing, so shame on them. You need to find a good exotic vet who specializes in or has lots of experience with chameleons so your boy can get calcium injections.
Click expand to see my comments.

thank you so much!! I can possibly get him back into that specific vet and tell him Louie has mbd and ask for him to be treated as such. The earliest I can get into the better reptile vet in my area is the 23rd and I'm afraid he won't make it until then. Does he look close to death? Is it THIS severe? I don't want him to suffer. Is this treatable? I've read it isn't curable. Is this something that will need to be treated from now until forever? From what I've read, with mbd they just suffer and then die. Should I get him put down? I am WORRIED.
 
thank you so much!! I can possibly get him back into that specific vet and tell him Louie has mbd and ask for him to be treated as such. The earliest I can get into the better reptile vet in my area is the 23rd and I'm afraid he won't make it until then. Does he look close to death? Is it THIS severe? I don't want him to suffer. Is this treatable? I've read it isn't curable. Is this something that will need to be treated from now until forever? From what I've read, with mbd they just suffer and then die. Should I get him put down? I am WORRIED.
I guess I would take him back to the vet and tell them that he does have mbd. Being that they are not experienced they will likely want to do xrays so they can see his bone density. Even with that I would be afraid they wouldnt know what dose of calcium to give him. But I would definitely get him to the experienced vet asap either way! I think they will get you in sooner if you tell them it is an emergency.

Ok, so, mbd is treatable. They can make his bones strong again. However, I can see his bones have warped from the mbd, and that cannot be reversed. I think he has a chance, but he does have an advanced case. The first signs are neurological and on the inside. Once you can see his bones warping, and his casque bending in, then it has become advanced.
 
It is very important that you get him on the road to recovery so he doesnt suffer. And it is very important you get the correct supplements AND lighting. They go hand-in-hand and are crucial for longevity of his life.
 
It is very important that you get him on the road to recovery so he doesnt suffer. And it is very important you get the correct supplements AND lighting. They go hand-in-hand and are crucial for longevity of his life.

Thank you so much, I'm going to call them first thing in the morning and see what I can do. Let me list this just to make sure I get everything I need tomorrow after the vet visit:
  • long, liner T5HO 5.0 or 6% bulb (no lights at night anymore)
  • feed him more crickets & variety bugs, steer clear of mealworms as normal feeding
  • calcium with NOD3
  • D3 reptivite vitamin (liquid form or???)
Are there any things I can do from home in order to benefit his recovery process? Or will the vet just treat him once with a calcium dose and I will have to just watch from then?
 
Thank you so much, I'm going to call them first thing in the morning and see what I can do. Let me list this just to make sure I get everything I need tomorrow after the vet visit:
  • long, liner T5HO 5.0 or 6% bulb (no lights at night anymore)
  • feed him more crickets & variety bugs, steer clear of mealworms as normal feeding
  • calcium with NOD3
  • D3 reptivite vitamin (liquid form or???)
Are there any things I can do from home in order to benefit his recovery process? Or will the vet just treat him once with a calcium dose and I will have to just watch from then?
You are feeding about the correct amount. You just need to feed different bugs, and you only need to feed him 3 days a week.

I think you will get a shot from the vet, and then they will show you how to give more or you will take him back for more. I think you will need more than 1 injection....I honestly dont know. Maybe @kinyonga can help answer this.

You can help by getting the lighting and supplements and start him on it right away.
 
You are feeding about the correct amount. You just need to feed different bugs, and you only need to feed him 3 days a week.

I think you will get a shot from the vet, and then they will show you how to give more or you will take him back for more. I think you will need more than 1 injection....I honestly dont know. Maybe @kinyonga can help answer this.

You can help by getting the lighting and supplements and start him on it right away.

Can you provide specific brand and name of supplements and where you get them from? Sorry if that's annoying, I just want to ensure I am getting the right thing.
 
This is the UVB light I am currently using. Do I need to purchase a different one?
 

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