Kepler thinks his legs are branches...causing falls

[mons00n]

I spent a good deal of time talking to Ed from Kammerflage at the Vegas reptile show about Kepler's issues. He immediately said it sounded like a calcium deficiency, so I ordered some repashy rescuecal which just arrived. The directions say to use as directed by a vet...but seeing as my vet doesn't see anything wrong with him how do I use this stuff? Can I overdose him on calcium? I need to try something to help him out and this seems like the best bet. I really just need to know how much (drop, drops, lots of drops?) and how often (daily, weekly, monthly?) to administer the oral calcium supplementation. Any help would be greatly appreciated!

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

I was wondering about your little guy this morning actually! I'm glad you finally agree on supplementing calcium. Neo-calglucon is dosed at 10mg/kg orally. So you need to know his weight in grams and convert accordingly. Make sure to limit the amount of phosphorus in his diet as it inhibits the absorption of calcium. Reptiles are very good at excreting excess calcium so overdose isn't much of a concern if you are close to the appropriate dose. I can help you calculate it out once you get his weight.

 

[mons00n]

I was wondering about your little guy this morning actually! I'm glad you finally agree on supplementing calcium. Neo-calglucon is dosed at 10mg/kg orally. So you need to know his weight in grams and convert accordingly.

I unfortunately do not have an accurate scale at my disposal; is it ok to use a syringe + measuring spoons (converted accordingly)? I know the measurements won't be exact but they should be close to accurate yes? Also once the solution is mixed is it safe to take 1mL=1gram?

Make sure to limit the amount of phosphorus in his diet as it inhibits the absorption of calcium.

How does one do this? Currently he only eats crickets (8-10 daily) at the moment. I've tried different worms but he just ignores them. I'm currently working on increasing the size of my dubia colony so I can add variety to his diet and reduce my dependance on those nasty stinky crickets.

Thanks for your help and support ferretinmyshoes!

 

[TyggyToo]

I'm so sorry to have joined this late in the situation, but it is EXACTLY the situation I have with my Shayna. I've used Repashy Ca+ all along, and I have been to a 'reptile aware' vet. It is a MAJOR nightmare for me.

Briefly, I got Shayna, a veiled cham, when she was about 4 mo, from a reptile store. She exhibited this leg-grabbing at least once before I purchased her, but it didn't occur to me to question it. I've had her for about 10 weeks.
- 18x18x30 enclosure with a mixture of live plants one of which she ate extensively, and I removed it from her enclosure. Lots of branches. She was very good about climbing on the mesh walls.
* I changed plants, and increased the vines over time
- fed on crickets that have been fed on Bug Burger and veggies and calcium supplemented water gel.
* Added in dubias about a week ago. Nearly all her food has been dusted with Repashy Ca+. Since seeing the vet, I'm also putting calcium gluconate on the crickets and dubs (liquid calcium supplement).
* Vet took an xray and it didn't look like MBD, though there was a general lightness of the bone structure. [I tend to think that this is what a growing animal would display]
* Two birds share the room. This never seemed to bother the cham, but I draped that side of her cage to block the view
- Plant light, UVB light and heat lamp...UVB was changed from a 5.0 to 10.0
* Recently added two halogens behind screens to increase temps
* Fan in room circulates air
- She is misted two to three times a day by hand, using about a pint of water on her, the plants and the inside mesh. Water drippers are an unholy mess, but I plan to set up a shelf to help.

She has shed twice with no problem, there is no discharge, normal droppings and big appetite, but her coordination with her rear limbs was deteriorating. The inside of her elbows had been clawed raw, and I started using a neosporin ointment on her. The vet suggested a 'soother', and I've used that too.

All the changes mentioned above were my shotgun approach to fixing any and everything. At this point in time, the leg grabbing behavior stopped 100% to my knowledge. I NEVER saw her incapacitated.

For exactly three days then it started again and gotten much worse.

Two days ago I prepared myself to find her dead. I had rescued her numerous times (once face down in the sanseveria...she never have been able to get out without help) and pried her claws loose, painstakingly placed all four of her feet on a branch or vine (she just closes her eyes and pretends it isn't happening, but stays pretty green) only to find her clutching herself at the bottom of the enclosure. Even when she was on a branch she'd doze off in the daytime.

This would be death to a cham in the wild. Something is very wrong, but my vet didn't catch it, a vet friend who has dealt with reptiles is baffled, and this forum isn't familiar with it.

I was about to put her in a bucket of sand, thinking possibly it was a weird presentation of egg binding, but you say your cham is a male.

 

[TyggyToo]

Oh, more info and thoughts

Today, shortly after rescuing her again, putting her carefully on a branch, and waiting for her to stabilize (she's very wobbly) she caught sight of a cricket, casually turned her head and nailed him. But she can't coordinate enough to get to the bowl with the dubs and crickets in the Ca gluc.

The vet said to me that 'most of the problems with chameleons are due to MBD and dehydration so that's how we're going to treat it'. I'm not too thrilled with that sort of diagnostic, but from all I'm seeing here, from what I know having worked at an exotic vet practice, you keep on trying anything and everything.

I went from a general misting of her and the cage to a rigorous drenching that she detests, twice a day.

Also, having worked at an exotic vet practice, I know that you may never know what ultimately fixes a situation. If she doesn't make it, I'll be sure to post necropsy results.

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

I unfortunately do not have an accurate scale at my disposal; is it ok to use a syringe + measuring spoons (converted accordingly)? I know the measurements won't be exact but they should be close to accurate yes? Also once the solution is mixed is it safe to take 1mL=1gram?

Yeah you can make it work if you have some syringes. 1mL is equivalent to 1 gram.

How does one do this? Currently he only eats crickets (8-10 daily) at the moment.

That's fine. To limit phosphorus you need to make sure you're gutloading appropriately. Collard greens have the highest calcium to phosphorus ratio, dandelions, turnip greens and mustard greens also have good ratios so these should be your staples.

TyggyToo - sounds like you've had quite the journey with your cham. If you'd like any advice or input about her it would be best to start your own thread so it doesn't get too confusing.

 

[TyggyToo]

No, its the same topic, a shared conversation. Unless the OP would prefer otherwise. And if they do, well, I was hoping for a community here, rather than 'senior' members chiding newer ones about sharing info about a shared situation.

 

[TyggyToo]

The directions say to use as directed by a vet...but seeing as my vet doesn't see anything wrong with him how do I use this stuff? ... Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Lets supposed that the stuff you're using is basic Cagluc. I'm supplementing Shayna with Ca gluconate at 1 drop twice a day, per the vet, but failing to get her little jaws open after the first day (her jaws are not at all soft) I'm making the crickets and dubs take a little dip in it after dusting, using .5ml or a teeny puddle of the stuff.

Ca gluc is a very easily accepted form of calcium. It is sweet, and many animals will take it orally without a fuss. You can get a pint bottle of the stuff at feed and grain stores sometimes, or buy it online for MUCH cheaper than you can get from a vet.

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

No, its the same topic, a shared conversation. Unless the OP would prefer otherwise. And if they do, well, I was hoping for a community here, rather than 'senior' members chiding newer ones about sharing info about a shared situation.

I think we're getting off on the wrong foot here. My being a senior member has absolutely nothing to do with it and I was not chiding you at all. There's nothing wrong with adding your own experiences here, but often times people post their own stories to someone else's long threads and then get frustrated that no one answers them. And if people do then it gets confusing as to who the answer is intended for. I merely offered that if you were seeking advice or anything that it would be easier to make a new thread. But I'm not saying you have to. Experience and new members are always welcome.

 

[TyggyToo]

<shifting feet>

 

[Elizadolots]

It will be cleaner that way Tyggy. Inevitably there will be confusion if two chameleons, even with similar difficulties, are being discussed.

 

[mons00n]

It's been ~16 days since my last update. In that time I've upgraded Kepler's cage and improved my gutloading.

::gutloading::
My gutloading used to consist of cricket crack coupled with the occasional carrot/orange. Now I've setup an extra bin - one to hold the soon to be eaten crickets, and one to hold the 'keep em alive' crickets.

The 'keep alive' bin crickets are maintained on yellow corn meal & water with the occasional collard green since they'll devour anything in a matter of hours. In the 'soon to be eaten' bin they have a consistent supply of water, collard greens, cricket crack, and the occasional orange/carrot/bug burger. Crickets are moved from one bin to the other at least 24 hours before feeding to allow for the consumption of the proper foods.

I still don't feel the dubia colony is large enough for them to become his primary source of food. I've been raising them for ~2 months now and have seen a good increase in the number of juveniles. My hope is for them to become his main diet and get rid of crickets entirely.


::cage::
At the vegas reptile show I purchased one of Ed's wider cages (30x18x36") since I didn't think Kepler needed much vertical climbing space. I also purchased a rain dome for my aquazamp, a new reptisun bulb, and many more branches for him to climb on.

As it turns out the screen this cage is built out of is just a tad too small for Kepler to climb on comfortably, so he's pretty much restricted to the chameleon super highway. He loves walking back and forth the entire distance of the cage, so I think it was a great buy.

One question I did have though - since this cage is so wide the side without his basking bulb was a bit dark. I added a small 15w CF bulb to help light the place up:

I checked the temperature and it's ~80F which is much lower than his basking spot. Is this ok? I've heard things about CF bulbs and just wanted to make sure a regular house bulb would cause no harm.


::results::
I have NOT seen Kepler grab himself since the upgrades. At least when he does grab himself (not often) he immediately lets go and continues doing what he was doing. He's fallen a few times, but those times were only due to the screen being difficult to climb. All in all I'm ecstatic that he seems to be improving without having to do any liquid calcium or vit-A supplementation.

Here's a pic of him today:

(he's on a very flimsy branch so his thinness can be attributed to his nervousness)

And here's a video I took of him eating, this one really shows some color and the fatness of his tail!

 

[okiroo]

im so happy he's doing better! always wonderful to see improvement in chams

 

[TyggyToo]

Thumbs up for working through Kepler's problems!! I'm still battling.