Kepler thinks his legs are branches...causing falls

[mons00n]

In addition to giving him the Repashy, if he has a calcium issue, you need to give him more calcium to help build the bones back up. Liquid calcium is said to be absorbed more easily...you could use calcium sandoz or calcium gluconate. I'm not a vet...I'm just going by experience...but leg grabbing has never been reported to be a sign of retardation in chameleons that I know of...its been seen as a sign of a calcium imbalance.

Thanks for the replies kinyonga and all, I do appreciate it. Could you describe the behavior of these chameleons with calcium imbalances in more in detail? The reason I ask is because Kepler grabs his legs while climbing/walking, and does not let go - so it's like he can't feel that he has his own front legs. From my recollection those chameleons with calcium problems were grabbing their legs for some sort of support since their bones were weak/misformed.

Members here and breeders (Tiki) alike have told me that my supplement regimen is spot on. The herp vet felt every bone in his body concluding that they had no problems as well. All of this evidence is pointing towards something other than supplement deficiencies. It seems to me from his behavior that the nerve endings in his forearms are dead. When I attempt to assist him sometimes it only takes a slight touch on his clamped foot for him to let go. Other times he clinches on tighter from what seems like fear of falling.

My next thought process led me to the size of his cage. He currently resides in a 'medium' 16x16x29" screen enclosure - which I have been told will work for him up until he's about one year old. I have two major vines in with his large umbrella plant giving him what I consider ample room to walk around. During the day when he's looking for food (before feeding), or after times when he's stressed (after the aquazamp mists him - he hates it, so I'll be getting a raindome at the show) he ends up doing a lot of crawling on the ceiling and walls of the enclosure. With the reptile show coming up in about 2 weeks I was considering the purchase of an x-large (24x24x36") enclosure. I am not 100% sure on this, but it seems that he only gets to grabbing himself when he's in a stressful situation, or when he's in a hurry (hunting). So if cramped living quarters was the problem then a larger enclosure could do nothing but help, what are your thoughts on this?

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

Feeling the bones is not an adequate test for MBD by any means. The bones won't feel soft to the touch even in the worst of cases. They will start breaking though if it progresses. A radiograph (xray) will show low density bones. Bloodwork will tell you if the calcium to phosphorus ratio is imbalanced. If he developed his bones properly when he was young but is now suffering from deficiencies you won't see the bending of bones like you would when they're young. You see other signs, such as grabbing the limbs because calcium is needed for more than just bone structure. It and another minerals are crucial to muscle and nerve function as well. Chams don't just become retarded...

From my recollection those chameleons with calcium problems were grabbing their legs for some sort of support since their bones were weak/misformed.

No, that is not why they do it. We don't know for sure why but they are not consciously trying to support their own limbs for sure. They're not that advanced. They often grab their limbs and don't seem to realize they have. What you are describing is spot on for MBD.

If he is falling due to his symptoms do not get him a bigger cage because that will only increase the distance he could fall and really hurt himself.

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

I'm sorry this hasnt helped so far. I'd say its safe to keep it up for another couple of weeks. But also increase the plain calicum intake. Make sure there is plenty of water available, especially since you dont measure humidity. You might add some fresh vegetables (items high in calcium) to your gutload instead of only using cricket crack. This will help with hydration as well as potentially providing more nutrients. Butterworms would also be a good addition.
gutloading info:
https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/sandrachameleon/75-feeder-nutrition-gutloading.html
When you took him to the vet, did they not do some blood tests?

This is actually what I was going to suggest. You may be supplementing correctly but if he has a deficiency then maintenance supplementation may not be enough to keep up with daily needs in addition to making up the deficit. I'd start with some oral liquid calcium. Its more concentrated form can help make up the deficit much faster. I would also add some good veggies to my gutloading. Logic behind it is more variety is always better and it certainly can't hurt! Collards, mustard greens, turnip greens and dandelions are all high calcium good choices. Butter worms are very in calcium as well. Now that's it cooler outside get him as much natural sun as possible. It works wonders. Things like this take time to develop and it takes time to heal as well.

 

[Riven]

I too was going to say that feeling the bones won't show the density unless they are to the point they are breaking.

I am currently dealing with a MBD cham, and all I have to say is totally rule it out ASAP. Our girl went from doing the "hammock" ( half grabbing herself half the plants and hanging there ) to full out messed up in a matter about 2 days... By the time we figured it out and got the xrays the vet said that her bones were basically sponge they were so decalified. Her legs didn't even show up as bone on the xray. If I had a clue of this before it got this bad...

 

[mons00n]

Feeling the bones is not an adequate test for MBD by any means. The bones won't feel soft to the touch even in the worst of cases. They will start breaking though if it progresses. A radiograph (xray) will show low density bones. Bloodwork will tell you if the calcium to phosphorus ratio is imbalanced. If he developed his bones properly when he was young but is now suffering from deficiencies you won't see the bending of bones like you would when they're young. You see other signs, such as grabbing the limbs because calcium is needed for more than just bone structure. It and another minerals are crucial to muscle and nerve function as well. Chams don't just become retarded...



No, that is not why they do it. We don't know for sure why but they are not consciously trying to support their own limbs for sure. They're not that advanced. They often grab their limbs and don't seem to realize they have. What you are describing is spot on for MBD.

If he is falling due to his symptoms do not get him a bigger cage because that will only increase the distance he could fall and really hurt himself.

I too was going to say that feeling the bones won't show the density unless they are to the point they are breaking.

I am currently dealing with a MBD cham, and all I have to say is totally rule it out ASAP. Our girl went from doing the "hammock" ( half grabbing herself half the plants and hanging there ) to full out messed up in a matter about 2 days... By the time we figured it out and got the xrays the vet said that her bones were basically sponge they were so decalified. Her legs didn't even show up as bone on the xray. If I had a clue of this before it got this bad...

Thanks guys. It looks like I need to make another vet appointment and request blood work and an x-ray to confirm =/ When the vet 'felt' him up he made him walk all over the place and it didn't happen, so he didn't see cause for any further workups. Hopefully I can get an appointment for next week. Kep has his good and his bad days, the past few days just happened to be a bad.

Riven do you have any 'hammock' pictures? Do the pictures I have earlier of Kepler grabbing himself resemble what yours was doing? Like was she grabbing herself and just not letting go? You've all got me worried again!

 

[Meow Kitty]

your pictures made me laugh soooooooooooooooo hard no offence.... also i thought it was really funny how teh vet just said he was retarted. he is very pretty though...

 

[mons00n]

If he developed his bones properly when he was young but is now suffering from deficiencies you won't see the bending of bones like you would when they're young.

He's only ~6 months old and has been growing quite quickly as of late; would he be able to develop 'normal' bones even while suffering from some sort of calcium deficiency/imbalance? I understand this logic if he was older and full grown...but something isn't adding up here =/

I too was going to say that feeling the bones won't show the density unless they are to the point they are breaking.

I am currently dealing with a MBD cham, and all I have to say is totally rule it out ASAP. Our girl went from doing the "hammock" ( half grabbing herself half the plants and hanging there ) to full out messed up in a matter about 2 days... By the time we figured it out and got the xrays the vet said that her bones were basically sponge they were so decalified. Her legs didn't even show up as bone on the xray. If I had a clue of this before it got this bad...

also how old was your girl when this started happening?

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

Are you sure he's only 6 months old? He looks much too big and colorful for a 6 month old panther.

Not all animals present in the exact same way with the same disease. Grabbing the legs can be an early sign of MBD and if left untreated can progress to bone deformities. But not all MBD chams grab their legs.

 

[sandrachameleon]

...Could you describe the behavior of these chameleons with calcium imbalances in more in detail? The reason I ask is because Kepler grabs his legs while climbing/walking, and does not let go...

you have just described a classic symptom - grabbing forelegs with hindlegs

 

[mons00n]

Are you sure he's only 6 months old? He looks much too big and colorful for a 6 month old panther.

Yessir, he was purchased 5/15/11. Chad from Tiki said he was about 1-1.5 months of age at that time. Here's a pic of him the first night we got him:

and here he is a week or two ago which probably gives a better perspective in regards to the size of my hand:

you have just described a classic symptom - grabbing forelegs with hindlegs

The vet is going to give me a call tomorrow to discuss things. I'm going to get some blood work and an x-ray done to get this figured out. I'll keep you guys updated with any info I get.

Again I appreciate the responses and feedback.

 

[mons00n]

UPDATE:

My vet just called, he said the x-ray looked fine. He found no abnormalities such as low bone density, fractures, etc etc. We hope to have the blood work results by tomorrow.

 

[mons00n]

here are pictures of his x-rays, curious as to what you guys think:

and apparently he was pretty pissed off in this one!

Turns out my vet specializes in orthopedics so I trust him when he says he sees no abnormalities.

 

[mons00n]

UPDATE:

Heard back from the vet today on the blood work. He said that his calcium-phosphorous levels were great, but the potassium was a bit low. He wasn't sure if that was due to the sample sitting, or some lab systematics so he's going to call me back next week to let me know if it's actually of any concern.

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

I actually do not think the bone density looks great. The bones in the toes should be as bright as the ribs and spine. See how In the one from the top view they are much darker and harder to see? Classic for calcium deficiency. While this may be a vet that does a lot of orthopedic work, orthopedic vets don't have exotics orthopedic training. I'm sure he is incredibly knowledgable about canine/feline orthopedic problems and how to fix them, and that is a difficult field. But just being able to see the bones of reptiles and them not being broken there isn't enough, they should be as bright as all the other bones. Thats not a problem you worry about in canine/feline patients. You can barely see the back feet. If he posted these rads on VIN the exotics specialists would say there is very poor bone density in the limbs for sure. (This isn't really something he would appreciate hearing from you btw...) I would start liquid oral calcium supplementation. If nothing else, additional calcium is never a bad thing so why don't you just try it?? It's easy and can make a great difference if there is any underlying deficiency. You've already spent a ton on diagnostics (good for you!!) and I think found a great sign of deficiency but not to the point that injections are needed. Just try a couple of weeks of oral liquid calcium and see if you notice a diffence.

 

[mons00n]

I actually do not think the bone density looks great. The bones in the toes should be as bright as the ribs and spine. See how In the one from the top view they are much darker and harder to see?

To be fair these are pictures of the x-rays taken with my cell phone - so the exposures may not be accurately representing the brightness/contrast of the bones. From the side views his feet seem to be just as bright as his ribs - so it may the photograph causing this.

While this may be a vet that does a lot of orthopedic work, orthopedic vets don't have exotics orthopedic training. I'm sure he is incredibly knowledgable about canine/feline orthopedic problems and how to fix them, and that is a difficult field. But just being able to see the bones of reptiles and them not being broken there isn't enough, they should be as bright as all the other bones. Thats not a problem you worry about in canine/feline patients. You can barely see the back feet. If he posted these rads on VIN the exotics specialists would say there is very poor bone density in the limbs for sure. (This isn't really something he would appreciate hearing from you btw...)

He is a herp vet, and he specifically mentioned that he saw no problems in his bone density so I'm inclined to believe him. I didn't get to sit and talk with him the day I picked Kepler up but I'll ask specifically about his feet next time I speak with him.

I would start liquid oral calcium supplementation. If nothing else, additional calcium is never a bad thing so why don't you just try it?? It's easy and can make a great difference if there is any underlying deficiency. You've already spent a ton on diagnostics (good for you!!) and I think found a great sign of deficiency but not to the point that injections are needed. Just try a couple of weeks of oral liquid calcium and see if you notice a diffence.

If it can't hurt then I'll definitely give it a shot. There's a reptile show coming up next weekend so hopefully there will be some for sale. Again appreciate the help!

 

[sandrachameleon]

If the xrays are believed to show no issues, and if the blood work shows no imbalance, does the vet have an explanation for the muscle control issue?

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

He is a herp vet, and he specifically mentioned that he saw no problems in his bone density so I'm inclined to believe him. I didn't get to sit and talk with him the day I picked Kepler up but I'll ask specifically about his feet next time I speak with him.

Okay that makes a little more sense. But I still think they look too dark... Hopefully it was just a lost in translation issue with the cell phone camera (even in the side view his toes are darker), although I can see good detail elsewhere...

I've seen rads posted where the vets (and even I) thought the bone density looked good and the experts still pointed out minor changes that indicated bone density is poor. You could see the toes and everything rally well but the cortices were thinner than they should be. In this case I can't see the distal bones that well at all, thus why I think density isn't good.

If it can't hurt then I'll definitely give it a shot. There's a reptile show coming up next weekend so hopefully there will be some for sale. Again appreciate the help!

It certainly doesn't hurt! They are really good at excreting extra calcium so even if he doesn't need it you wouldn't be causing harm. And in the case that he does, it's an easy way to get ahead of a mild deficiency.

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

Here is an example of another rad to give you an idea of what I mean. Of course this is a bearded dragon rather than a cham but the concept is the same. See how you can all of the bones of the toes with just as much detail as you can all the rest? Ignore the broken right arm. In your picture I can't tell you how many bones are in the wrist or ankle, when I should be able to.



(This is not my photo, I do not own it or have any rights to it. I have the source info for anyone who needs it but will not reveal unless necessary due to client confidentiality. Please understand this is simply for educational purposes.)

 

[camimom]

Here is an example of another rad to give you an idea of what I mean. Of course this is a bearded dragon rather than a cham but the concept is the same. See how you can all of the bones of the toes with just as much detail as you can all the rest? Ignore the broken right arm. In your picture I can't tell you how many bones are in the wrist or ankle, when I should be able to.

View attachment 42784

(This is not my photo, I do not own it or have any rights to it. I have the source info for anyone who needs it but will not reveal unless necessary due to client confidentiality. Please understand this is simply for educational purposes.)

I just want to say, poor little beardie. that arm looks like it hurts.
hope it healed ok.

 

[mons00n]

If the xrays are believed to show no issues, and if the blood work shows no imbalance, does the vet have an explanation for the muscle control issue?

I'll be asking him once he gets back to me on the blood work. He's waiting on the lab to ensure that the low potassium isn't a systematic problem with the sample.

Here is an example of another rad to give you an idea of what I mean. Of course this is a bearded dragon rather than a cham but the concept is the same. See how you can all of the bones of the toes with just as much detail as you can all the rest? Ignore the broken right arm. In your picture I can't tell you how many bones are in the wrist or ankle, when I should be able to.

ahh interesting. That picture certainly looks much more evenly exposed than mine. I wonder if that's because bearded dragons are 'flatter'? Or it could be due to the exposure settings the vet used?

In this shot (top) his head area looks much brighter than the rest of his body.