Kepler thinks his legs are branches...causing falls

[mons00n]

Hi everyone,

Kepler has been grabbing his own legs lately thinking they are branches. I first noticed it a few weeks ago but didn't pay much attention to it, but lately it seems to be getting worse. I found him caught in a pretzel once where his hind legs were both grabbing one another and one of his front legs were grabbing the back. He'll get stuck like this for some time and will not let go, causing himself to fall from time to time. My girlfriend and I are frequently finding ourselves intervening in order to prevent any harm to the little guy. Here are a few shots of him in a bind:

It just seems that he doesn't realize that he's grabbing his own leg - can they not feel this? Is this normal? Or do we have some sort of mental problem at hand? =/ Here's a quick video of me helping him out, and you can see that he won't let go at first. This time seemed to be an exception and he let go eventually
(sorry for the bad cinematography!)

Kepler is a 5-6 month old blue bar amilobe from TikiTiki Reptiles. He eats 8-10 large crickets per day, and is watered multiple times throughout the day with RO water (~20 TDS) via his aquazamp. I dust his crickets with Calcium W/O D3 every day, Calcium with D3 + Multivitamins (herpavite & mineral-all-o) twice a month. The crickets are gutloaded with cricketcrack. I take him outside to get some vegas sun for 10-20 minutes maybe once a week.

Appreciate any words of advice here! Thanks for reading

 

[SonTigerPantherCham]

Well, and this imo and experience.
Sometimes when a chameleon exhibits this behavior it is an early sign of mbd. Along with shaky gaits and falling. It is difficult for their legs to hold the weight, and I feel(this is again my opinion) they grab unto their limbs because they are uncomfortable. I have RA, which is a bone disease and when I hurt, I hold that bone/ joint, it helps relieve the discomfort.

I would think about an appt with a herp vet, a blood test and exam will help with a diagnosis. If it is, oral or injections of calcium will help stop this.

Sometimes it just happens, there might not be anything wrong with your husbandry, or some changes might be necessary.

Your Cham also does not need to show bone deformity if it is early stages.
ask for others advice, please

 

[mons00n]

Well, and this imo and experience.
Sometimes when a chameleon exhibits this behavior it is an early sign of mbd. Along with shaky gaits and falling. It is difficult for their legs to hold the weight, and I feel(this is again my opinion) they grab unto their limbs because they are uncomfortable.

Hrm, any other opinions on this? Kepler doesn't show any shaky gaits, and his falls are only caused by him not letting go of his legs. And he only grabs himself when he's trying to turn around or get into odd places without branches. I wouldn't think it was a problem - but he doesn't let go for whatever reason. Sometimes when I try and help him he even tightens his grip making it worse.

 

[mons00n]

Just took him out to hold him and he got himself stuck again walking on my hands. Now this could be because he's getting bigger and my hand is the same size...but regardless he should be able to realize what is happening and let go right?

Had my gf take this video to show that he's trying to move his legs and walk, but he won't let go of himself. I didn't mean for him to flip over but his front leg was grabbing one of his back and his other back leg was grabbing his tail so he only had one free limb. I'm starting to get really worried here.

 

[Elizadolots]

I think you should fill out the "how to ask for help" info in the stickied thread near the top of this forum. Just copy, paste into a reply and type in as detailed information as you can provide (names of supplements, names of bulbs).

In the past, stories like this have, indeed been signs of significant illness.

The more information you can give, the better responses the experienced people can give you.

 

[mons00n]

I think you should fill out the "how to ask for help" info in the stickied thread near the top of this forum. Just copy, paste into a reply and type in as detailed information as you can provide (names of supplements, names of bulbs).

In the past, stories like this have, indeed been signs of significant illness.

The more information you can give, the better responses the experienced people can give you.

Most of it is redundant, but sure.

Chameleon Info:

Your Chameleon - Blue bar amilobe, male, 5-6 months, in my care since about 1.5 months old.
Handling - daily to every other day
Feeding - 8-10 crickets per day every day. Gut load = cricket crack.
Supplements - Rep-Cal Calcium without D3 every day. Rep-Cal Calcium WITH D3, Rep-Cal Herpivite, and Sticky Tongue Farms Mineral-All Outdoor TWICE a month.
Watering - Aquazamp misting of RO (~20TDS) water every hour or so for 1 minute. I do see my chameleon drinking off of the leaves.
Fecal Description - Brown and white - looks like other healthy poop pictures found on this forum. Kepler has not been tested for parasites yet.
History - None that I know of.


Cage Info:

Cage Type - Screen Cage ~16x15x28"
Lighting - 50watt heat bulb from petsmart (don't remember brand). Reptisun 5.0 UVB bulb. Light's on at around 9am, off at ~8pm.
Temperature - basking area is ~85, the rest of the cage is ~79 (temperature of the room he's in) Measured these temps with a digital thermometer
Humidity - Do not have a way to measure humidity - see misting schedule above
Plants - Live schefflera/umbrella plant
Placement - cage located in the corner of my loft, not near any vents/fans. Foot traffic is moderate and only a few times a day. Where he hangs out he is ~5-6" above eye level. Top of the cage is ~6 feet off of the floor (my girlfriend and I are short)
Location - Las Vegas, NV

Current Problem - See the above posts.

 

[mons00n]

here are 2 of his recent poops:

top one is a few days older than the bottom one I believe.

 

[Elizadolots]

Sorry for suggesting the dreaded form, but it really does organize the information in the way everyone is used to seeing it. That makes it harder for people to miss important things.

As I'm sure you know, your husbandry is pretty dead on "board standard".

The first question that occurs to me is how old is your bulb? Was it new when you started using it with this animal or did you already have it?

My second question is about the vitamin supplements. From what I can find around the internet, neither includes vitamin A. Is there a reason you are not supplementing with vitamin A? I'm not a nutrition expert, so don't know either way, I just found it curious.

 

[Thompson]

Sorry for suggesting the dreaded form, but it really does organize the information in the way everyone is used to seeing it. That makes it harder for people to miss important things.

As I'm sure you know, your husbandry is pretty dead on "board standard".

The first question that occurs to me is how old is your bulb? Was it new when you started using it with this animal or did you already have it?

My second question is about the vitamin supplements. From what I can find around the internet, neither includes vitamin A. Is there a reason you are not supplementing with vitamin A? I'm not a nutrition expert, so don't know either way, I just found it curious.

Rep-cal Herptivite has Beta Carotene in it which is converted to Vitamin A. It makes it so their is no Vitamin A toxicity.

 

[mons00n]

Sorry for suggesting the dreaded form, but it really does organize the information in the way everyone is used to seeing it. That makes it harder for people to miss important things.

No I completely understand, my fault for not doing it in the first place =p

The first question that occurs to me is how old is your bulb? Was it new when you started using it with this animal or did you already have it?

Bulb was purchased 5/16/11 brand new - so roughly 3 months old.

My second question is about the vitamin supplements. From what I can find around the internet, neither includes vitamin A. Is there a reason you are not supplementing with vitamin A? I'm not a nutrition expert, so don't know either way, I just found it curious.

Not sure on the vitamin A - here's the label for the mineral-all-O

and the repti-cal herpivite

I bought it as a "Suppliment Combo Pack" from TikiTiki. Chad said that was all I needed for the little guy.

I really appreciate your responses. I just can't figure out if it's something I'm doing wrong or if something is wrong with him; either way I just want him to be healthy!

 

[mons00n]

Rep-cal Herptivite has Beta Carotene in it which is converted to Vitamin A. It makes it so their is no Vitamin A toxicity.

ah I see. Do you have any vet recommendations here in vegas? I wanna get my little guy in for a visit asap if it's necessary.

 

[Thompson]

ah I see. Do you have any vet recommendations here in vegas? I wanna get my little guy in for a visit asap if it's necessary.

I usually go to Dr. Gorman at Creature Comforts. She's about 10 minutes away and is a pretty good vet

 

[Elizadolots]

Isn't there concern that chameleons cannot convert Beta Carotene into Vitamin A? I'm pretty sure I've read that here and googling suggests it's true.

From the first site:

It was originally thought that chameleons could convert beta-carotene, but recent research suggests that they too may need preformed vitamin A.

There has been considerable controversy over how much, and what type of vitamin A chameleons need. Reports of small research studies in the 1990s suggested chameleons should not be given preformed vitamin A, since it could result in excessive levels of vitamin A in the animal (hypervitaminosis A). Later research found this information to be incorrect. Many chameleons today suffer from vitamin A deficiency (hypovitaminosis A) due to the misinformation published in the early 1990s.

What Are the Signs of Vitamin A Abnormalities?

Hypovitaminosis A

Reduced growth rate
Death
Metabolic bone disease
Necrosis/sloughing of the tip of the tail
Swollen lips
Swelling around the eyes
Abnormal vertebrae
Difficulty with maintaining a grip or posture
Increased number of upper respiratory infections
Inability to reproduce or death of eggs
Loss of appetite
Skin abnormalities
Hemipenile impactions in young males

It's just something to consider.

 

[NOP]

My Veiled "Neo" on occasion does this when he is trying to turn around in his cage...ive seen him do it a few times and i took him into the vet freaking out had blood tests done and had him checked for parasites....they said he was fine and in good condition....it really made me feal at ease to hear that cuz i was worried....my guy is 6-7 months old now and hes done it a hand full of times grabbing his leg or his body trying, but he only really ever does it when hes trying to turn around...i double vined all the vines in my cage so that he would have more room to turn around on them and he has done it maybe one time that i have noticed since then...just saying you should still prob take him to a vet and all but you dont need to FREAK out as much as i did...."sometimes they just grab whatevr is handy to move around on" is what my vet told me...

 

[clarkrw3]

Tiki themselves have changed to Repashy Calcium Plus which does have Retinol in it for Vit A. Since panthers do not readily convert Beta Carotene. Just worth a thought, not sure if it's your issue but it is a gap you have.

 

[mons00n]

My Veiled "Neo" on occasion does this when he is trying to turn around in his cage...ive seen him do it a few times and i took him into the vet freaking out had blood tests done and had him checked for parasites....they said he was fine and in good condition....it really made me feal at ease to hear that cuz i was worried....my guy is 6-7 months old now and hes done it a hand full of times grabbing his leg or his body trying, but he only really ever does it when hes trying to turn around...i double vined all the vines in my cage so that he would have more room to turn around on them and he has done it maybe one time that i have noticed since then...just saying you should still prob take him to a vet and all but you dont need to FREAK out as much as i did...."sometimes they just grab whatevr is handy to move around on" is what my vet told me...

did Neo refuse to let go when he grabbed himself? it's like my guy doesn't even know he's holding on to his own limb - that's my real worry.

Tiki themselves have changed to Repashy Calcium Plus which does have Retinol in it for Vit A. Since panthers do not readily convert Beta Carotene. Just worth a thought, not sure if it's your issue but it is a gap you have.

i'll have to call chad and talk to him about this. thanks for the heads up!


what age is normal to take a cham to the vet for the first time?

 

[PeriTanz]

Panther chameleon grabing his own limbs

https://www.chameleonforums.com/i-hate-when-he-climbs-himself-63568/

I don't know if that will make the link or not but similar discussion. My panther did this for about two weeks until i moved him to his big boy cage. That was over a month ago and i haven't seen the behavior exhibited since the move..

 

[sandrachameleon]

...It just seems that he doesn't realize that he's grabbing his own leg - can they not feel this? Is this normal? Or do we have some sort of mental problem at hand?

This is not normal behaviour, and points to a muscle/physical (possibly due to a nutritional deficiency) issue. It would be worth a vet visit regardless.

Rep-cal Herptivite has Beta Carotene in it which is converted to Vitamin A. It makes it so their is no Vitamin A toxicity.

There is no certainty, and indeed quite a bit of doubt, that chameleons convert carotene to A. It is also not know if crickets convert it.

It would do no harm to provide a little pre-formed vitamin A / retinol to see if this helps. Cautious is warranted, as too much can be toxic, so educate yourself as much as possible prior to making this a regular addition.
While you are at the vet, have blood sample taken and analyzed. Vet can also prepare an oral vitamin A dosage based on weight, if it is felt that would be helpful.

You only mention crickets. I would recommend using a much wider variety of prey. I feel you are far less likely to encounter healthy issues if you offer a wide variety of well gutloaded prey.

 

[clarkrw3]

I think it is also worth noting that your cham looks VERY small and under developed for 5-6mo if you want to see what my ambilobe looks like at 5+ mo at look this months photo contest for the picture into the blue. He looks more like 3 mo in those pictures. I am not saying he isn't as old as you say he is but for some reason he is not progressing like I think he should.

 

[mons00n]

This is not normal behaviour, and points to a muscle/physical (possibly due to a nutritional deficiency) issue. It would be worth a vet visit regardless.

It would do no harm to provide a little pre-formed vitamin A / retinol to see if this helps. Cautious is warranted, as too much can be toxic, so educate yourself as much as possible prior to making this a regular addition.
While you are at the vet, have blood sample taken and analyzed. Vet can also prepare an oral vitamin A dosage based on weight, if it is felt that would be helpful.

I'll make an appointment tomorrow; thanks for the advice.

You only mention crickets. I would recommend using a much wider variety of prey. I feel you are far less likely to encounter healthy issues if you offer a wide variety of well gutloaded prey.

I really want to feed him a wider variety of things. I've been trying Superworms on and off for the past 2 months and he wants nothing to do with them. My girlfriend loathes roaches so I've been trying to convince her to let me keep a colony. What other types of feeders do you recommend? And as far as the dubias are concerned - will they survive in a high heat environment such as my garage during the summer? Are they more/less hardy than crickets?

I think it is also worth noting that your cham looks VERY small and under developed for 5-6mo if you want to see what my ambilobe looks like at 5+ mo at look this months photo contest for the picture into the blue. He looks more like 3 mo in those pictures. I am not saying he isn't as old as you say he is but for some reason he is not progressing like I think he should.

I got my cham at the reptile show on 5/15/11 and Chad said he was approximately 1.5 months at that point. Which puts him at just about 5 months now. Here's a comparison shot on the same hand for reference:

do you really think he's under developed? I know he's a light eater compared to some others, but I've been told that is completely fine as long as he's drinking. He pretty much stops at 8 large crickets per day; I could try feeding him earlier in the day to see if he wants more later....

edit: I just checked out your pic and he looks like he's the same size as kepler in reference to your finger (nice shot btw).