Is our Approach to Naturalistic Humidity Correct?

[PetNcs]

Chameleons need to "Bathe" as it were, they need to wash their eyes, they need to be able to soak their skin. Removing all ability's to "Shower" is not correct.

Chameleons in no way need to bathe (what for?!)
The theiry of washing their eyes in an absokutely absurd nonsense presented by one VET then uncritically parotted by many
They absolutely do NOT need timsoak their skin, their skin is inoenetrable fir water

they do NOT shower u kess we firce them
all this paragraph is an absurd nonsense

xbameleons
Effectively hide from rain if they can

i have observed it several dozens times in the wild, they as a rul try to a oid any contact of their skin with water
The dact we see in captivity sometimes a different tendency is OUR BIAS, not a natural behavior

 

[PetNcs]

1. While I do agree, that natural keeping is better, this is not natural conditions they have come to expect. Our Chameleons (unless yours in WC) have never lived in the wild, they expect the conditions they were raised under, the conditions that their breeder provided dont you think?

2. This is 2 different statements, one of which is correct, the other has not actually been proven as reality, but its easier to go with that, and out of scope of the thread. (*)

3. Where did this come from? The Humidity doesn't rise at midnight, the humidity is high all day, and gets higher at nightfall. Ideally you should begin raising humidity at nightfall, which I think you covered with your misters, but gradually raise till 100% at midnight is fine, maybe start at 50% (daytime humidity) and raise it, so spray at lights out, then fog 45 mins later for 15, then gradually increase the fogging till midnight with your 30/30 cycle would be fine. (**)

4. I am not sure about Yemens. Panther Chameleons in Madagascar, many do not survive the Dry Season, they are Annuals in the wild. We should as you said provide a Dew, and they do utilize that in the Wet Season 100%, just pointing out the Dry season statement. Should the dry season really be imitated? As that is what this seems.

5. Wait your Ambient Temperature rises? Do you think that the temp in Madagascar reaches its peak heat at 10am, then it magically drops to 70 for the rest of the day? On the contrary, the Heat hasn't even begun till after 10am, the hottest part of the day is in the afternoon. So you suggest we expose our chams to what they would be in nature, and give them a hot morning and cool day? When that is the complete opposite of anything resembling nature at all? (**)

6. Again we want to stay far and away from thinking about or recreating the "Dry Season" as again, dont most not survive that season.

7. This is the wrong logic to follow. Few issues here,

1. Chameleons need to "Bathe" as it were, they need to wash their eyes, they need to be able to soak their skin. Removing all ability's to "Shower" is not correct.

2. What is the point of removing the Afternoon or any time of Mists? Are we trying to recreate the Dry Season Again? The Wet Season consists of 20-27 days of 2+ inches of rainfall
throughout the day (**,***), it rains, basically every day. In small amounts, very often. I am well aware of the "High Heat + Misting = RI" Well again, we have the hottest days being in the wet season,
its not only raining, and extremely humid, but those are the days that are hottest. This could happen to some folks, and is likely more so a ventilation issue then a high heat + humidity. Which then again as you have stated, its been common place for us as keepers to keep basking lights on during misting and everyone didn't have constant RIs.

3. Do Chameleons really not like rain? Or misters for that matter? Or is what they dont like is out of the Blue being sprayed by water. In my experience, a chameleon will be shocked, and run from the misters turning on. Then to slowly return to the water stream, to "Bathe" on their own leisure. Thats because the Misting, or the Rain is not the problem, the startling is.

Chameleons cannot look at your clock, and say "Hey its going to rain soon", in nature they DO KNOW its going to rain, just as we do. What happens to us when it rains, is it a bright sunny day then all of a sudden we get sprayed by water? How would that make you feel? The misting during the day does not need to be removed, the Ques of its coming is what needs to change. This doesn't stop there either.

In the morning, when you are just waking, or woken and someone flips on a super bright light in your face, how does that make you feel? My wife does it all the time to me, and it drives me up the wall. Does the sun just naturally pop up full 100000 lux in your face, no. So why do we do that to chams?

The correct approach to the afternoon mist, is to turn off the basking light, ahead of time. Have your grow lights on automated dimmers, that have ramp timers, and to ramp the light down. If you cant do that, and must flip the light on, thats fine, everything goes off, except the UVB light, 30 mins before the mist. 30 mins after the mist, the lights come back on. Now the chameleon has that natural Que, he knows, "Ugh oh, the sky just darkened, I am about to get sprayed with water, let me hide, or let me sit over here next to the mister".

My lights currently switch off, in that fashion (will be ramping in the next week or 2, once I get the controller finished) Guess what, he doesn't freak out when the misters go off, when the lights shut off, he begins to move under a leaf, or he moves towards a mister. He has learned what it means when his lights dim in the middle of the day, just as a Wild Chameleon already knows.

* "The third eye is only sensitive to violet and blue light: it ignores light of longer wavelengths." - https://osa.magnet.fsu.edu/tutorials/chameleonschange.html, I got tons of those links, that was just the first one .

** Weather Data for Today, January 15, 2020 in Ambilobe Madagascar. - https://weather.com/weather/hourbyh...667ffff04bacba68a95226e0c04e575daee78b008bd12

Spoiler: Image (Large)

View attachment 256157

*** Yearly Average Weather Data. https://www.madcham.de/en/category/chamaeleons-habitatsdaten/lokalformen-von-furcifer-pardalis/
View attachment 256158


I want to here your thoughts, see you guys opinions on this, and of course weather data, effects it has had on your chams, what schedule you use ect.

 

[PetNcs]

Yoj seem to terri ly miss many points while bashing Bill for his excellent work.
We put chameleons in cages right? We can not give them the whole tousands of cubic meter of environment fully, so, we need to imitate their living space, not the biotope as whole! It means if the basking lights are off, it is absolutely correct IMHO, because YES, fir the chamelekn, based in its natural behaviotal patterns, the temperature really rises tikk 10AM when it basks and then drops fir the almost entire rest of the day SIGNIFICANTLY as it retreats to the shade of the bush. O observed it maybe 1000times.

 

[PetNcs]

3. Do Chameleons really not like rain? Or misters for that matter? Or is what they dont like is out of the Blue being sprayed by water. In my experience, a chameleon will be shocked, and run from the misters turning on. Then to slowly return to the water stream, to "Bathe" on their own leisure. Thats because the Misting, or the Rain is not the problem, the startling is.

ues they do not like rain, rhey hate it
They hide
Ask yiurself what yiundo in yiur husbandry wrong that firces your chameleon to make such an absurd move to het to stream of water and take bath, if he never ever does this dekiberately in the wikd.

 

[cyberlocc]

yiu seem to forget that fir tens if millions of years, the cbameleons lived in the wild in their environment. Thinking rhat one gegeratii. Or even oart of the life changes this just bexause the keeper provides somethinv different is something that i do not emieve yiu can suggest seriously.

A chameleon born and raised in captivity, does not know the wild. There is lots of studys around that, showing that to be true. The further we go out in generations, the more detached from wild instinct they become.

I again, still condone a more naturalistic environment, 110%, however to assume a chameleon would "Expect it" is another matter. I think a naturalistic environment should be created from the start. Starting with, as I have seen you mention, incubation in soil, where the eggs were laid.

Chameleons in no way need to bathe (what for?!)
The theiry of washing their eyes in an absokutely absurd nonsense presented by one VET then uncritically parotted by many
They absolutely do NOT need timsoak their skin, their skin is inoenetrable fir water

they do NOT shower u kess we firce them
all this paragraph is an absurd nonsense

xbameleons
Effectively hide from rain if they can

i have observed it several dozens times in the wild, they as a rul try to a oid any contact of their skin with water
The dact we see in captivity sometimes a different tendency is OUR BIAS, not a natural behavior

I believe you have observed that 100s of times in the wild, fully. However I think you are missing some sightings of the opposite to be true. Myself and a couple others have been testing this, obv on a small scale.

We shut off all lights, (of which ours are very bright) except for the single UVB tube, every other light goes off. We do this 30 minutes before, the Chameleons misters go off. The chameleons in our granted very small, sample size have realized this means mist. It didn't happen, the first time we did it. Nor the second, nor the third, but after a few weeks of doing this, the chameleons have seemed to grasp, as they would in the wild, sky is getting dark, its going to rain.

After observing this, a strange then happened. Most of the time, I have witnessed what you suggest, the chameleon runs under a couple spots where the misters do not get wet. He has not only learned when its going to mist, but where the misters spray and how to hide. Sometimes, like I said its rare, but I have seen the lights Dim, and the Cham will position himself right under the mister, and sit there and wait.

When the mist comes, he will bob his eyes in and out, in what seems to be washing them. Maybe he isn't washing them, I'm not sure what he is really doing. What I am sure, is that my Cham has shown the ability to know when the mist is going to come, with changes to lighting, and that sometimes, he chooses not to.

This testing, as I am told by a couple others that have wanted to try it since me, worked for them as well, so its seemingly able to be recreated. So if you still have a mister, maybe it would be a worthwhile test to try yourself.

 

[PetNcs]

I also agree with the "Naturalistic Hydration" at its face value. However in the case of this thread, we are ignoring reality of nature, for some perceived better way. So the old way wasn't Natural, this way is not like nature, so what differs them? We should be pushing for naturalistic keeping, but thats not what this schedule does.

If anything, this "Naturalistic" humidity plan, steers further from nature.
We have seen the weather, the temps are hot all day, getting hotter in mid day. the humidity is high All day, getting higher at night. There are frequent short showers of Rain, throughout the day.

Sounds alot like the old way, basking all day 3-5 mistings per day, or whatever. So instead we exchange that for a higher nighttime humidity? For that we give up the average day temps, and the rain that are proven to exist as well?

Younare rhe one who vigorously does not understand what you are ralking about. Tel
Mleratires you show need interpretation and need to be oit in the context of the environment and. It just gaken. Rhey are measured in the centee of defirested sun exposed concrete jungke and not at okaces
Where chameleons lice.
yij write a mor. Ut it would be better if giu would thing mire and then. Weite less because many if the ideas yiu oresent here are just showing how you do not
Understand what is actually rhe realith out there
Someone needs data to see more
And someone becomes nlindfolded by them

 

[cyberlocc]

Yoj seem to terri ly miss many points while bashing Bill for his excellent work.
We put chameleons in cages right? We can not give them the whole tousands of cubic meter of environment fully, so, we need to imitate their living space, not the biotope as whole! It means if the basking lights are off, it is absolutely correct IMHO, because YES, fir the chamelekn, based in its natural behaviotal patterns, the temperature really rises tikk 10AM when it basks and then drops fir the almost entire rest of the day SIGNIFICANTLY as it retreats to the shade of the bush. O observed it maybe 1000times.

No one is bashing bill...

In a proper cage environment, you can recreate the hot spots and the shady gradient. Thats the entire point of an Arboreal cage. The chameleon can retreat to a shady spot, if that is what they desire.

ues they do not like rain, rhey hate it
They hide
Ask yiurself what yiundo in yiur husbandry wrong that firces your chameleon to make such an absurd move to het to stream of water and take bath, if he never ever does this dekiberately in the wikd.

I am sorry, buy you have not watched a single chameleon 24/7 for weeks straight in the wild, we both know that. Rain lasts, for a long time. You could spend months watching chameleons, and never see one go out into the rain, that doesn't mean they never do it. There is tons of animals, that do things that humans have never seen, but we know they do it. Animals that researchers have yet to see mate, yet there is babys, so we know they do.

I have provided an easy way for you to see yourself. Try and it and see.

Younare rhe one who vigorously does not understand what you are ralking about. Tel
Mleratires you show need interpretation and need to be oit in the context of the environment and. It just gaken. Rhey are measured in the centee of defirested sun exposed concrete jungke and not at okaces
Where chameleons lice.
yij write a mor. Ut it would be better if giu would thing mire and then. Weite less because many if the ideas yiu oresent here are just showing how you do not
Understand what is actually rhe realith out there
Someone needs data to see more
And someone becomes nlindfolded by them

Thanks, this conversation is over now. I tried.

 

[PetNcs]

A chameleon born and raised in captivity, does not know the wild. There is lots of studys around that, showing that to be true. The further we go out in generations, the more detached from wild instinct they become.

i strongly disagree with that stayement
There are wry hard adaptations and changing the oarameters is either harmful on chronical or acute base or lethal

 

[PetNcs]

In a proper cage environment, you can recreate the hot spots and the shady gradient. Thats the entire point of an Arboreal cage. The chameleon can retreat to a shady spot, if that is what they desire.

yiu can NOT and tij will never be in indoor husbandryZ
Ia solely for the reason, thag yiu will
Never have rhe possibility to simulate a natural iarX visible lighr, UV enitter similar in gradients to sun.
Solely because itnis just here and the sun is 150M km far.
The intensity of any light drops witb thw square of rhe distance to the source...

 

[PetNcs]

m sorry, buy you have not watched a single chameleon 24/7 for weeks straight in the wild, we both know that. Rain lasts, for a long time. You could spend months watching chameleons, and never see one go out into the rain, that doesn't mean they never do it. There is tons of animals, that do things that humans have never seen, but we know they do it. Animals that researchers have yet to see mate, yet there is babys, so we know they do.

I have provided an easy way for you to see yourself. Try and it and see.

Absokuteky invalid comment

 

[cyberlocc]

Absokuteky invalid comment

And this is why, as I have already told you. I will no longer be responding.

I am telling you a REALITY, I am sorry that REALITY doesn't fit your agenda, does not make it less so.

You are too concentrated on what you think you have seen, and ignore things you have not. Your absence of evidence, is NOT evidence of absence, that is a common saying in science.


Just like you stating that Chameleons dont bask, except in the morning and night. Its a clear cut of your absence of evidence, is NOT evidence of absence. You say they dont drink, because you havent seen it, your absence of evidence, is NOT evidence of absence.

Why is it that many many keepers have witnessed on a daily occasion these things you claim dont happen? Why is only you Petr, that sees this lack that no one else has? Remind you of something, or someone?


Good Day Petr.

 

[PetNcs]

And this is why, as I have already told you. I will no longer be responding.

I am telling you a REALITY, I am sorry that REALITY doesn't fit your agenda, does not make it less so.

You are too concentrated on what you think you have seen, and ignore things you have not. Your absence of evidence, is NOT evidence of absence, that is a common saying in science.


Just like you stating that Chameleons dont bask, except in the morning and night. Its a clear cut of your absence of evidence, is NOT evidence of absence. You say they dont drink, because you havent seen it, your absence of evidence, is NOT evidence of absence.


Why is it that many many keepers have witnessed on a daily occasion these things you claim dont happen? Why is only you Petr, that sees this lack that no one else has? Remind you of something, or someone?

You are blindfolded and onsessed by you olaying smart ehi tiunare not. You miss modesty and education my dear
Ann the fact yih lroduce kong smart looking texts is worthless as yiu bring no value, just destruction and bad mood
I am done with you

 

[PetNcs]

Itnis younthag do not see reality and is aggressive if anyone dares saying yoj are not right
I am ges up with your aggression and rudenness and destruction
Yiu can inly twist words and bring tons of pseudodata and miss the points

I am sorry for CF to have someone like you having voice.

youproduce paeusoscience and can not keeo focus on anytjing. You jump from topic to topic and make almost no valid conclusions.
I applaud you being able to google the size if a cricket, really impressive.
The hisyory and wise people will show who brings light to the tunnel and who is the one bringing darkness.

 

[cyberlocc]

Itnis younthag do not see reality and is aggressive if anyone dares saying yoj are not right
I am ges up with your aggression and rudenness and destruction
Yiu can inly twist words and bring tons of pseudodata and miss the points

I am sorry for CF to have someone like you having voice.

youproduce paeusoscience and can not keeo focus on anytjing. You jump from topic to topic and make almost no valid conclusions.
I applaud you being able to google the size if a cricket, really impressive.
The hisyory and wise people will show who brings light to the tunnel and who is the one bringing darkness.

 

[snitz427]

Whether you dislike the rain or not, if you are outdoors in a heavy rain you are going to get rained on. Im not sure I understand why simulating rain would be unnatural or unnecessary.

 

[Kristen Wilkins]

A chameleon born and raised in captivity, does not know the wild. There is lots of studys around that, showing that to be true. The further we go out in generations, the more detached from wild instinct they become.

I again, still condone a more naturalistic environment, 110%, however to assume a chameleon would "Expect it" is another matter. I think a naturalistic environment should be created from the start. Starting with, as I have seen you mention, incubation in soil, where the eggs were laid.




I believe you have observed that 100s of times in the wild, fully. However I think you are missing some sightings of the opposite to be true. Myself and a couple others have been testing this, obv on a small scale.

We shut off all lights, (of which ours are very bright) except for the single UVB tube, every other light goes off. We do this 30 minutes before, the Chameleons misters go off. The chameleons in our granted very small, sample size have realized this means mist. It didn't happen, the first time we did it. Nor the second, nor the third, but after a few weeks of doing this, the chameleons have seemed to grasp, as they would in the wild, sky is getting dark, its going to rain.

After observing this, a strange then happened. Most of the time, I have witnessed what you suggest, the chameleon runs under a couple spots where the misters do not get wet. He has not only learned when its going to mist, but where the misters spray and how to hide. Sometimes, like I said its rare, but I have seen the lights Dim, and the Cham will position himself right under the mister, and sit there and wait.

When the mist comes, he will bob his eyes in and out, in what seems to be washing them. Maybe he isn't washing them, I'm not sure what he is really doing. What I am sure, is that my Cham has shown the ability to know when the mist is going to come, with changes to lighting, and that sometimes, he chooses not to.

This testing, as I am told by a couple others that have wanted to try it since me, worked for them as well, so its seemingly able to be recreated. So if you still have a mister, maybe it would be a worthwhile test to try yourself.

My hatchlings know no different. They are not scared of the mist . When they first hatched we hand misted . They have always had humidifiers early am from hatching . They only have 2 short watering throughout the day all our chameleon’s .
However they have a dripper always . I only see them drinking early am except septiseye . Septiseye will only drink from his dripper , that can be anytime ( Nosy be ) They have humidifiers they run early am go off 30 min before their basking go’s on , then 30 min after uvb and grew go on . My girls basking go’s off mid day for an hour or 2 depending on temps . I keep their temps much lower then any care sheets call for . Now I’m just a simple hobbyist , I have no degrees in anything scaly related nor am I scientist or biologist . I’ve been keeping 4 1/2 years , my experience has only been captive . We have taken in a few rehabs and they have successfully recovered keeping this way as well as either very small or no clutches .

 

[cyberlocc]

My hatchlings know no different. They are not scared of the mist . When they first hatched we hand misted . They have always had humidifiers early am from hatching . They only have 2 short watering throughout the day all our chameleon’s .
However they have a dripper always . I only see them drinking early am except septiseye . Septiseye will only drink from his dripper , that can be anytime ( Nosy be ) They have humidifiers they run early am go off 30 min before their basking go’s on , then 30 min after uvb and grew go on . My girls basking go’s off mid day for an hour or 2 depending on temps . I keep their temps much lower then any care sheets call for . Now I’m just a simple hobbyist , I have no degrees in anything scaly related nor am I scientist or biologist . I’ve been keeping 4 1/2 years , my experience has only been captive . We have taken in a few rehabs and they have successfully recovered keeping this way as well as either very small or no clutches .

Just my opinion, but I feel all data, and all of our experiences hold value, and should be added together to help form patterns, to help create a betterment of care.

 

[Kristen Wilkins]

Just my opinion, but I feel all data, and all of our experiences hold value, and should be added together to help form patterns, to help create a betterment of care.

Aww thank you your kind . It’s just my experience , I have absolutely nothing to offer beyond what I have provided here pictures and the keepers I have helped by taking there scaly babies to rehab them , at that it’s been a handful . I have such little experience . However I have cared for very sick chameleon’s successfully , along with hatch a few .

 

[Brodybreaux25]

Chameleons in no way need to bathe (what for?!)
The theiry of washing their eyes in an absokutely absurd nonsense presented by one VET then uncritically parotted by many

So are you saying that misting in no way benifits the chameleon as far as cleaning their eyes?
See the video linked to see what I’m talking about.

Every cham I’ve ever had would always stroke their eyes frequently during a misting session. I’ve always been told they are taking advantage of the mist to aid in cleaning. Is it possible they are stroking their eyes because the rain is irritating them and we’ve all misinterpreted what we were seeing?

 

[salty dog]

You fellas are awesome!!! Thank you for the great info!! It will take me at least an hour to read all this, until then I am grateful for this info!!