Is our Approach to Naturalistic Humidity Correct?

cyberlocc

Chameleon Enthusiast
Seems yiu have nevwr been in the field
I have run all around with a thermometer and rhe remoweayure in rhe shaded biotioes are radically different from those just 200m further in the ooen landscape in direct sunshine

honti the field and do not say fabulations rhat are not true
You are arguing weather patterns, and Physics. Being in the field does not alter reality's. This is a tested, proven fact from much larger industry than Reptile Ones.

Again, ALL weather data, is ALWAYS taken in the shade. As taking measurements outside of Shade, have Infrared rays heating the measurement device, That would equivalent to Surface Temperature, not Air Temperature, which are two completely different things.

I believe that you get a different reading with a thermometer in direct sun. You are no longer reading Air Temperatures, but Surface Temperatures. You seem to be confusing the two. The Measurements that are being linked, from weather sites and Madcham, are Air Temperatures, they do not alter in the sun or in the shade, and they are ALWAYS taken in the shade, or shielded from direct sunlight.
 
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PetNcs

Avid Member
Ya, thats why I do not like calling it winter. The change is much more drastic to us in America, and Canada, ect. Equator Areas have a much less drastic amount of change.




You do not seem to understand that is NOT true. The temps are NOT lower in the shade... You are blocking the IR rays, yes. However the Temperature of the air is not changing.

If you place the thermometer, in the sunlight. The IR rays will heat up the thermometer and give a higher reading, but if you do that your not getting air temperatures anyway.

All the Temps, that have been linked in this thread, from Madcham, from weather sites, those are the temps in the shade.


There is a lower temperature, area to the canopy. However this is the result of other factors, like humidity. Not strictly due to shade.


All of that is for not anyway, we have made another thread. On that subject, and the votes tell the story.
i AM
OUT OF THIS DEBATE
WILL NOT REACT ON YIUR NONSENSE

HO TO THE FIELD AND DO NIT TEACB US LESSON FROM CLIMATILOGY SITTING AND THEORETICISING FROM THOUDANDS OF MILES AWAY

I WAS IN THE FIELD AND AI KNOW WHAT i am talking anout

i ceawled on the teees and measure temperatires wherever I was

I know mu shuff

i am tired by yiur oseudosmart attacksmaking all clear rhat inly you know the facts.

i do jor want to jave any denate with you

if yiu want me ti leave rhe Caf, as a revenge that I kicked yiu out of my group for rude persknal
Comments, say it and ai eill leave

after being memeber fir 15 years, I am fed up by yijr aggression and ignorance
 

Lennoncham

Chameleon Enthusiast
Seems yiu have nevwr been in the field
I have run all around with a thermometer and rhe remoweayure in rhe shaded biotioes are radically different from those just 200m further in the ooen landscape in direct sunshine

honti the field and do not say fabulations rhat are not true
we’re you measuring surface temps or air temps? There is a big difference.

If it’s air temps

“Air temperature is always read in the shade because the sun's radiation does not affect the temperature reading. Placing the thermometer near sidewalks, cars or other warm, reflective surfaces could create an inaccurate reading because heat bounces off these objects and magnifies before being read by the thermometer.”

if it’s surface temps the same could apply since the surface is getting directly heated with uv radiation.
 

cyberlocc

Chameleon Enthusiast
i AM
OUT OF THIS DEBATE
WILL NOT REACT ON YIUR NONSENSE

HO TO THE FIELD AND DO NIT TEACB US LESSON FROM CLIMATILOGY SITTING AND THEORETICISING FROM THOUDANDS OF MILES AWAY

I WAS IN THE FIELD AND AI KNOW WHAT i am talking anout

i ceawled on the teees and measure temperatires wherever I was

I know mu shuff

i am tired by yiur oseudosmart attacksmaking all clear rhat inly you know the facts.

i do jor want to jave any denate with you

if yiu want me ti leave rhe Caf, as a revenge that I kicked yiu out of my group for rude persknal
Comments, say it and ai eill leave

after being memeber fir 15 years, I am fed up by yijr aggression and ignorance
This conversation has nothing to do with Madagascar, its basic physics. Madagascar is not a parallel universe where physics stop working.


Here is another article, we are up to 2 now? Maybe 3? I can provide more, if you want.

"Shade doesn't actually make temperatures cooler. Rather, being in direct sunlight and solar radiation makes the air feel 10 to 15 degrees warmer than it actually is, said Jim Lushine, a retired weather service meteorologist.

"So, conversely, it would feel that much cooler in the shade," he said.

Similarly, when the ocean breeze comes up, temperatures will feel 4 to 5 degrees cooler, particularly if you've been sweating."

https://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/fl-xpm-2013-07-07-fl-shady-breezy-temps-20130706-story.html
 

PetNcs

Avid Member
we’re you measuring surface temps or air temps? There is a big difference
noth and temps of soil too in different biotioes amd in different depths
And on egg deposition sires and jigh up in canopies

IMSAID WHAT I WANTED

YIU CAN FURTHER THEORETIZE ABOUT EHAT YIU WANT
 

cyberlocc

Chameleon Enthusiast
noth and temps of soil too in different biotioes amd in different depths
And on egg deposition sires and jigh up in canopies

IMSAID WHAT I WANTED

YIU CAN FURTHER THEORETIZE ABOUT EHAT YIU WANT
Surface Temperature of ANY surface, has ZERO to do with Air Temperature.

When a thermometer is placed in direct sunlight, you are no longer receiving Air Temperature, as the Thermometer is a Surface that is now being heated by IR rays.

The Canopy, can be cooler the lower you go, this is NOT because of the shade. This is because of the increase of humidity, from the plants, the cooler soil, the wind, there is many factors, the shade is not one of them however.


As to you seeing them bask, once in the morning and once at night. That may be what you have witnessed, does not mean that is what is going on completely. The temps of the AIR, may differ in areas they are, that you are not measuring removing their need to bask in Light. Where as our cages, with a basking light off are cooler, so they need to bask more often.

We are up to 20 votes, and not one person has stated seeing what you are in captivity. There is more factors to wild, that are likely not being accounted for, like the Air temperature.

https://www.chameleonforums.com/threads/when-how-much-does-your-chameleon-bask.173510/

If you would like to discuss this aspect further, please do it there. We are derailing a thread about Humidity. Thanks :).

BTW: you never kicked me from any groups, I left the groups as they were close minded, and hive minded. It was not an Environment that I liked being in, there was no discussion, no exchange of ideas. Its agree with what we say, or we will kick you out, and delete any post that doesn't fit our logic. That is not how a scientific community operates, that is a Joke of a medium.

As I already told you in the DM, I do not want yourself, or anyone to leave CF. I like some of your ideas, alot. I like exploring them with yourself and community. That does not mean that I am a blind follower. When you state illogical things, or things that contrast with other papers that I have read, I am going to present them. That is called a Debate. You dont seem to want a debate, or to improve your ideas, or recognize the ideas of others. I helped you with your sheet, with the crickets and how that doesn't work stateside. You threw it back in my face...

I am here, anytime to discuss with you or anyone, learn when I am wrong, and help others do the same, and compare our data that we know, and the data of others we are aware of. However I am not going to sit back and be spoonfed everything you say as a reality and take it as such. Just like I have told you and so did Ferrit. We are scientific minds, we are not going to swallow your data as Fact with no proof, backing, or anything, its not in my Nature. Maybe your reputation and acting brashly gets people on Facebook to go along with whatever you say, but that simply isnt going to work here, in a true scientific Medium.
 
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jcarlsen

Avid Member
@cyberlocc to hopefully steer this thread back to the humidity question, I'm curious what your personal misting/watering technique and schedule is? Are you located somewhere with with fairly easy going seasons, or are your winters pretty harsh on that humidity like mine are?

Apologies if you answered this somewhere earlier, there's so much back and forth going on my head's starting to spin o_O
 

PetNcs

Avid Member
As someone who knows neither one of you I would say you sir are talking about yourself...
you might be right
I am tired being explained ai can not see I can nit measure temoerature and weighting crickets and trested kike my doctoraze oˇin sciemce and tjirty years resesrcb and work is absolute shit by someone who has never written anTjing and hides nehind fake avatar.

yoj are rigjr
I am aggressive and pissed

which is exactky the thing the kind guy whonis my opponent wants

and ai quit
 

cyberlocc

Chameleon Enthusiast
@cyberlocc to hopefully steer this thread back to the humidity question, I'm curious what your personal misting/watering technique and schedule is? Are you located somewhere with with fairly easy going seasons, or are your winters pretty harsh on that humidity like mine are?

Apologies if you answered this somewhere earlier, there's so much back and forth going on my head's starting to spin o_O
Ya my winter is pretty harsh.

We dont use Central Air, so that helps and hinders, depending on season. We use Forced Air Propane heating in the winter, and a Evaporation Cooler (swamp cooler) in the Summer.

I also dont use Screen cages. So that helps me with the Humidity aspect, especially as everything is Bioactive and planted, even my Insects enclosures.


My current misting schedule, is an idea I got from @jamest0o0,

I mist for 2 mins in the morning, 10 minutes before lights on. (6:50AM)

I then Mist again, at 1:30 PM, for 5 minutes.

30 mins before this mist, my lights go off, right now in analog fashion (Just off) soon to be dim off. Everything but the UVB/Flo lights (all my cages, even the bugs ones have a Flo, and LEDs) so the LEDs and Basking (for cages that have it) go off (or Dim, non basking cages dim). at 1pm.

At 2pm (25 mins after the mist) the lights return (except the dimming ones, which start to Ramp back on, 5 mins after the mist)

I then mist a 3rd time, 10 minutes after lights out For 1 minute. This helps to raise the humidity for the nighttime, it spikes a bit, and stays high over night.


I have a couple plants I am working with, trying to replace the idea of the fogger. An Arcea Palm, being the most important one. This Malagasy Native palm, is a strange one. Its one of few plants that Transpire water 24 hours a day. It transpires ALOT of water, 24 hours a day, NASAs clean air study found it transpires 1 liter per day, for a 6 foot tall plant.

Sadly in my state, shipping Arcea Palms here is illegal apparently, somehow they are sold locally, but you cannot import them into the state. Lowes always has them for me, but only 12 inchs tall, so I am waiting for my plant to get bigger, to give me the biggest effect and see the test results. My plant is currently about 24 inches tall, so its getting there.

At its current size, it does work, kind of. As I have lots of ground plants, and 8 inches deep soil, I cant say its only the plant at that height, but at the top of the plant and lower, at night I sit at about 80-90% humidity.

The top of the cage, humidity sits around 70% at night. The house outside the cage is about 20%. So thats something I have been waiting for the plant to grow and get more detailed results to share.



I dont use a fogger, I dont like the idea of using a fogger. I have a fogger, cost me quite a bit of money, I was one of the first I believe on the forum, to actually purchase a fogger and try it out, right after Petr announced the Humidity at night thing. I dont use it.

Heres why I dont use it. This is solely a personal opinion, and my reasons for disliking a fogger. Not knocking anyone for using a fogger AT ALL, this is simply why I dont like them.

1. Its not Natural. The fog that "Foggers" or "Cool Mist Humidifiers" provide, is not fog. Its not humidity, its mist. Its a fine mist, its a finer mist than our misters, but its still a mist. Blast that "fogger" line and watch how fast the surface you blast is sopping wet. It is water, not fog. It looks like a very thick (which is unnatural) Fog, but its simply a very fine mist.

Plants do not want to be wet at night. Watering plants like that at night, can cause Rot, Fungus, Bacteria build up, Clogging of Stomata, and many other issues. YEs it rains at night in the wild. However it still dries very very fast, as there is lots of air movement. Thats not the case in my Vivarium. People do fog, and seemingly has no issue on the plants. However most folks are using common hardy, garden center plants. I have plants in my vivs, that cost $100+ for a seedling. So its not a risk I like to take. I even dislike the lights out misting, however its less water than would be fogging all night long, and I agree with the idea of having higher nighttime humidity.

Alot of those plants I mentioned, in my Large Panther viv, all those plants are endemic to Madagascar, they require the same 100% humidity rise.


2. Cool Mist Humidifiers, are Dangerous. They are even recommended against for human use. Heres why, and an article on it.

"People should be especially cautious with ultrasonic or "cool mist" humidifiers. On the market since the late 1980s, these types are popular because they're cheap, quiet and energy efficient. They work by basically pulverizing water into a fine mist with high-frequency vibration. The problem, says Dr. Deterding, is that they turn everything that's in the water into mist, too.

"Bacteria, chemicals, minerals, mold — they aerosolize all that stuff to the right particulate size that you breathe it right into your lungs, and it can be toxic," says Dr. Deterding. "One of our patients developed chronic lung disease symptoms. We eventually figured out it was the humidifier." "

https://www.childrenscolorado.org/conditions-and-advice/parenting/parenting-articles/danger-of-humidifiers/


We are right back to, they are NOT raising humidity, they are NOT putting out Fog, they are a mister, with a finer particle size, thats it. Maybe I am a little over zealous with concern, I must be people mist fine. People seemingly have no issues using PVC cages either, despite that is poison and is constantly out gassing toxic chemicals into the air, especially when heated. I feel people treat stuff like that, "Its okay, its been a week, my Reptile isnt dead" however that does NOT mean there is not long term health issues being caused by breathing in terrible stuff. However, again I could just be a nut job :).
 

PetNcs

Avid Member
@cyberlocc to hopefully steer this thread back to the humidity question, I'm curious what your personal misting/watering technique and schedule is? Are you located somewhere with with fairly easy going seasons, or are your winters pretty harsh on that humidity like mine are?

Apologies if you answered this somewhere earlier, there's so much back and forth going on my head's starting to spin o_O
i will nit rake oart in this discussion further. Ai an sorry yiu do jit get my answers here, but thisnis nit the field where I am welcome

ifnyij need my answersC contact me orivately
 

cyberlocc

Chameleon Enthusiast
you might be right
I am tired being explained ai can not see I can nit measure temoerature and weighting crickets and trested kike my doctoraze oˇin sciemce and tjirty years resesrcb and work is absolute shit by someone who has never written anTjing and hides nehind fake avatar.

yoj are rigjr
I am aggressive and pissed

which is exactky the thing the kind guy whonis my opponent wants

and ai quit
Sir I am not your "Opponent" I am simply a Hobbyist, that loves to research and learn. Who has a scientific background, a scientific mind, who wants to improve his standard of care, and that of my Peers.

I never said you could not measure a crickets weight. I thought simply, you have not access to the Banded Crickets in the US, and instead you have the Mediterranean Crickets that we do not.

I attempted to find, why the caresheets on that aspect varied so greatly. I found the answer, I provided it to you, you had not seen the answer, so I tried to help. Would you rather I said nothing? So you can tell US keepers to provide .25gs of food per day, when in fact your illustration meant to feed 1g? That was not a shot at you, it was a suggestion of improvement for the sake of the keepers that follow that advice.

I never said, you dont know how to use a thermometer. I said that in the example you had given, you seem to be ignoring the factor, of Surface Temp, Vs Air Temp. Its a common mistake, lots of people do that, lots of people dont think about or realize the effect IR rays will have on a thermometer. I provided you scientific reference, so you could learn more on the subject.

I likely wouldn't know about it either, if it wasn't for the fact, I was born and raised in one of the hottest places on earth. Its a common fact around here, as it has to be, as people get fooled into thinking the shade is cooler, try to retreat to it, and pass from heat related illness. That knowledge is life or death, where I was born and raised.

If you would like to discuss the thread, and my data and points, I would love that! If you want to attack me and bicker, I am not interested, so I ask you to please refrain from that.

As to your "Doctorate in Science".

We have asked you about this, you will not tell anyone what this Doctorate is in, you did to Goose in what thought was private, and when alerted it wasn't you deleted it.

Your research gate profile, does not mention you being a Dr. You are never referred to by yourself or others as Dr. Necas.

Not being a doctor, does not make you not knowledgeable. However stating you are a doctor, at rare times, and not at others is shady.
 
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JoXie411

Chameleon Enthusiast
i will nit rake oart in this discussion further. Ai an sorry yiu do jit get my answers here, but thisnis nit the field where I am welcome

ifnyij need my answersC contact me orivately
Then go now we are tired of your broken record and want to get on to real discussions and not arguments. I’m over this now after seeing this for days. I swear when men start playing I have a bigger thing then you it’s annoying
 
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