Is our Approach to Naturalistic Humidity Correct?

[snitz427]

So are you saying that misting in no way benifits the chameleon as far as cleaning their eyes?
See the video linked to see what I’m talking about.

Every cham I’ve ever had would always stroke their eyes frequently during a misting session. I’ve always been told they are taking advantage of the mist to aid in cleaning. Is it possible they are stroking their eyes because the rain is irritating them and we’ve all misinterpreted what we were seeing?

I would think if the rain is irritating them much, they’d simply keep their eyes closed. Of course that makes them vulnerable for a potentially extended period. Just my first thought on it.

 

[Kristen Wilkins]

I would think if the rain is irritating them much, they’d simply keep their eyes closed. Of course that makes them vulnerable for a potentially extended period. Just my first thought on it.

Or hide from it , I know with my chameleon’s don’t like something They retreat into their plants , That’s instinctual I would think they all would . I’m exempting little babies they do odd things .

 

[cyberlocc]

Or hide from it , I know with my chameleon’s don’t like something They retreat into their plants , That’s instinctual I would think they all would . I’m exempting little babies they do all things .

They do, at times, I notice over the years, before using my new "Alert System". My previous captives, would retire into a space of hiding when the misters started, or walk right up to the mister. One way or another, they would have a reaction, and the fact that reaction is not always run and hide, makes me think they dont hate it as much as we think.

To be perfectly clear, I only mean they do not hate the water. I can see where pressurized water is unnatural, and maybe slightly irritating, surely a rain system would be more ideal. However its difficult with nature of caging. If there was a product made, to interface with a MK pump, that would put out Rain Drops, and was the size of frequently used cham cages, it would likely be well revived I'd bet however.

I also, would agree with the shock factor. Yes being sprayed by a stream of water out of seemingly nowhere would be irritating and stressful. I am sure we have all be sprayed by a squirt gun, hose, water balloon, whatever by a spouse, friend of sibling. Its not funny. Its surprising, shocking and stressful.

However I think Bill had the right idea, with his last guide. On the podcast, where he said turn off the basking light, before a mist, turn off all the lights, except for maybe the UVB light, it seems to give them a heads up, that in my experience, they will start to understand.

If anyone in the thread, was inclined to try that, it would be immensely helpful Data.

 

[Kristen Wilkins]

They do, at times, I notice over the years, before using my new "Alert System". My previous captives, would retire into a space of hiding when the misters started, or walk right up to the mister. One way or another, they would have a reaction, and the fact that reaction is not always run and hide, makes me think they dont hate it as much as we think.

To be perfectly clear, I only mean they do not hate the water. I can see where pressurized water is unnatural, and maybe slightly irritating, surely a rain system would be more ideal. However its difficult with nature of caging. If there was a product made, to interface with a MK pump, that would put out Rain Drops, and was the size of frequently used cham cages, it would likely be well revived I'd bet however.

I also, would agree with the shock factor. Yes being sprayed by a stream of water out of seemingly nowhere would be irritating and stressful. I am sure we have all be sprayed by a squirt gun, hose, water balloon, whatever by a spouse, friend of sibling. Its not funny. Its surprising, shocking and stressful.

However I think Bill had the right idea, with his last guide. On the podcast, where he said turn off the basking light, before a mist, turn off all the lights, except for maybe the UVB light, it seems to give them a heads up, that in my experience, they will start to understand.

If anyone in the thread, was inclined to try that, it would be immensely helpful Data.

Very similar to what we have been discussing . I would agree it’s not always run and hide in-fact my scaly’s never run from either hand misting or misting system . However I next to never see them drinking from it either . Usually off leaves early am , Except for septiseye . He only drinks from his dripper always been that way . Oliver if he’s angry he go’s on his roof and puffs up . He’s a little nugget .

 

[snitz427]

Mine have varying reactions. Most of them are startled by the sudden cold water... except Charlie, who doesnt seem to even notice. After the initial shock wears off, some of them avoid the water, while others come out from under cover and seem to enjoy their shower.

My misters are on top of the screen and they drip more than spray (but spray does still occur). I wonder if starting with a few 1 second mist sessions might give them a little more warning, like a drizzle. Or maybe shutting off the basking light in advance (temp drops are an indicator of incoming rain), and lightly fog for a minute or two to cool and moisten the air, just before misting.

I also think they recognize the few seconds of vibration when the mistking kicks on.

 

[GoodKarma19]

However I think Bill had the right idea, with his last guide. On the podcast, where he said turn off the basking light, before a mist, turn off all the lights, except for maybe the UVB light, it seems to give them a heads up, that in my experience, they will start to understand.

If anyone in the thread, was inclined to try that, it would be immensely helpful Data.

I still haven't set up my MK or timers properly since moving. I might yet experiment with this, and see how it goes for my girl Kismet!

 

[Decadancin]

So, I have not had the time to read through this thread due to work being crazy and building an enclosure in any free moment I have. I hope everyone can remain civil and remember that there is no one answer to this issue, no matter what anyone thinks.

This topic, as well as a few others has been a passion of mine for a long time. From not misting much and not having any drainage to full misting and fogging systems. Again, not one correct answer. I don't care what anyone says. There is no one correct approach.

Please stay on topic and remain positive and helpful to those who may actually be learning. Great discussions are what make this forum what it is. We don't need to throw tantrums because we disagree. Everyone is allowed a voice.

 

[Kristen Wilkins]

Mine have varying reactions. Most of them are startled by the sudden cold water... except Charlie, who doesnt seem to even notice. After the initial shock wears off, some of them avoid the water, while others come out from under cover and seem to enjoy their shower.

My misters are on top of the screen and they drip more than spray (but spray does still occur). I wonder if starting with a few 1 second mist sessions might give them a little more warning, like a drizzle. Or maybe shutting off the basking light in advance (temp drops are an indicator of incoming rain), and lightly fog for a minute or two to cool and moisten the air, just before misting.

I also think they recognize the few seconds of vibration when the mistking kicks on.

Right know we are hand misting do yo my hubs home receiving . He needs to get up and that’s a great reason . It also makes him stand 3 min each condo . We put a timer on so it’s definitely 3 min x2 a day . When we are not home at the misting time we run our system and yes they feel vibration I’m sure of that .

 

[Rlc1994]

My panther has no rhyme or reason on where he goes before the misters go off. My Leds and basking bulb shutoff indicating an “alarm” that mist will be coming soon. Sometimes I’ll see him start to retreat into the leaf cover other times I’ll see him waiting under the mister and gladly stay under the mister as it’s on. I do notice though that after his afternoon shower he will just hang out in the leaf cover for a couple hours soaking up the humidity I presume? Or he’s hiding from the possibility of more rain idk.. After that he comes up to bask for the last few hours of the day. I work evening shifts so I’m very observant of his habits throughout the day and this is what I usually see from day to day.

 

[salty dog]

I'm going to make a quick statement, my chams rinse their eyes, yes they do!! I REMOVE CHLORINE from my water, because I know that burns my eyes.....ro water also burns, minerals are a natural addition to water...rainwater is ph balanced with base minerals

 

[cyberlocc]

My panther has no rhyme or reason on where he goes before the misters go off. My Leds and basking bulb shutoff indicating an “alarm” that mist will be coming soon. Sometimes I’ll see him start to retreat into the leaf cover other times I’ll see him waiting under the mister and gladly stay under the mister as it’s on. I do notice though that after his afternoon shower he will just hang out in the leaf cover for a couple hours soaking up the humidity I presume? Or he’s hiding from the possibility of more rain idk.. After that he comes up to bask for the last few hours of the day. I work evening shifts so I’m very observant of his habits throughout the day and this is what I usually see from day to day.

Exactly the system I have implored, and have the same findings. Mine implements the same behavioral pattern.

 

[Decadancin]

Ya I cant say I agree.

I agree that the basking lights help with digestions sure, 100%. However reptiles will still bask after they are seemingly done, they still need heat I would argue long after you think they are done basking.

As Ruthless said, the principle is fine, as long as your temps are higher later in the day. For most home environments that is not the case, if your house is a constant 70, you need a basking light throughout the length of the day. Reptiles are cold blooded, they do not unlike us generate their own body temp. By doing as suggested, we are both subverting a naturalistic habitat, but also removing choice from the animal.

Your enclosure should be providing a temperature gradient, and with the solution of shut off the basking light, your cage is now what 70 all day long?

You also have to put into your thought the average keeper. The Average keepers around here (the new guys, the ones that are not involved in the hobby aspects) will have a T5h0 UVB and a Basking light, say a Halogen. You just told them to turn off that halogen, at 10am. Now the Chameleon will not only have a super dim cage, but the temps will be 70 cage wide. This suggestion is terrible for that keeper.

For the guy with Quad T5s, whose cage temp, will still be up in the high 80s, at the top, the solution is not such a big deal. That was probably who bill had in mind when stating that. Its still not a natural state, as the heat is not highest at 7-10am. Thats moving away from the Natural Process we should be moving towards.

Lighting is a diffrent subject, but sense we touched on it, I feel this should be brought up.

"No artificial lighting system in the world can provide the full spectrum and intensity of natural sunlight, its subtle changes in color as a day progresses, or the sun’s movement across the sky. For these reasons alone, the more natural daylight a reptile experiences, the better. “Natural daylight” may not always mean full sunlight; a herpkeeper must aim to provide species-appropriate lighting."
http://www.reptilesmagazine.com/Reptile-Health/Habitats-Care/Reptile-Lighting-Information/

I have always agreed with that sentiment 200%. Contrary to that article, as it is old, things have changed. We CAN Recreate the subtle changes in color throughout the day, we can change the heat throughout the day, we can recreate a pretty close to the Sun setup.

I also agree with the "Naturalistic Hydration" at its face value. However in the case of this thread, we are ignoring reality of nature, for some perceived better way. So the old way wasn't Natural, this way is not like nature, so what differs them? We should be pushing for naturalistic keeping, but thats not what this schedule does.

If anything, this "Naturalistic" humidity plan, steers further from nature.
We have seen the weather, the temps are hot all day, getting hotter in mid day. the humidity is high All day, getting higher at night. There are frequent short showers of Rain, throughout the day.

Sounds alot like the old way, basking all day 3-5 mistings per day, or whatever. So instead we exchange that for a higher nighttime humidity? For that we give up the average day temps, and the rain that are proven to exist as well?

I think this is your best post ever... Back to reading...

 

[cyberlocc]

I'm going to make a quick statement, my chams rinse their eyes, yes they do!! I REMOVE CHLORINE from my water, because I know that burns my eyes.....ro water also burns, minerals are a natural addition to water...rainwater is ph balanced with base minerals

I agree fully, with the chlorine and Eye washing.

However rain is not very mineralized, there is some, that are gathered as it falls, RO water and falling Rain water wants minerals. So it pulls minerals that it can while it falls.

However non polluted clean rain water is 5.5ish PH.

RO water is pretty close to rain water, which is slightly acidic.

A easy link,

https://www3.epa.gov/acidrain/education/site_students/phscale.html

 

[Kristen Wilkins]

It’s so interesting how they all have personalities and definite behaviors . We to spend a tremendous amount of time with our babies . One of the 3 of us are always with them . We never go away together ( vacation) do to having them and usually a few rescues (atm a beardie ) that need specialized care , it’s been a few years that we even did an over night together . Not complaining we love love love providing for the little gems . We do have a great sitter , we only use her if absolutely needed . She was a god sent when the babies hatched . Their arrival was a month earlier then we planned . My son was not done with school my hubs at the time was working a 70+ hour week .

 

[salty dog]

Interesting, I know ro water will pull minerals to it, that's why I use spring water, free of chlorine. not cost effective for everybody

 

[PetNcs]

Whether you dislike the rain or not, if you are outdoors in a heavy rain you are going to get rained on. Im not sure I understand why simulating rain would be unnatural or unnecessary.

agree, no problem
But there is an issue what does it mean to simulate fain in captivity
And many truly think, it is to put ON the Mistking

But rain is not a pressurized water from the diagonal direction or from the side
Rain is drops and usually goes through leaves

Rain seldomly comes sudden way:
It gets darker thanks to clouds
It gets colder thanks to clouds blocking the IR rays
It gets almost no UV for same reason
Birds stop or start to sing and fly lower or higher or disappear
Insects start behaving different way
It may become windy
etc etc
all that as a rule happens much earlier than the rain comes.
So, a mistking while full lights on and full heat bulb on and high temps and no place to hide under leaf cover ... thisnis not what is a rain simulation.

if uiu simulate the main aspects of the rain and give the chameleons the chance ti hide and provide it in its character of slow drops, please, I do not protest
Go for it!

 

[cyberlocc]

Interesting, I know ro water will pull minerals to it, that's why I use spring water, free of chlorine. not cost effective for everybody

Well cleaning the nozzles is a pain.

Using mineral water, surely has some positives though, more Calcium for one. But for me the negatives are too great, I have glass cages, glass doored wooden cages, LOTS of mister nozzles lol.

The calcium makes a mess. So I use RO.

 

[salty dog]

Yes!! mineral water is very messy!! I guess the "monsoon season" is still not understood

 

[cyberlocc]

Yes!! mineral water is very messy!! I guess the word "monsoon season" is still not understood

Yes it is, it's a nightmare on my glass surfaces lol.

 

[PetNcs]

I'm going to make a quick statement, my chams rinse their eyes, yes they do!! I REMOVE CHLORINE from my water, because I know that burns my eyes.....ro water also burns, minerals are a natural addition to water...rainwater is ph balanced with base minerals

do chameleons rinse rheir eyes? Of course they do!
The only issue is why they do so

and there is one big misconception that is Parotted again and again:

that they need external water to do so and rhat rhey take external water proactively to do so

and this is what they DO NOT!

if anything is getting into their eyes and they need ti rinse it, they produce tears rhat are produced by tear glands into the conjunctive sac and increase the pressure there and are exspelled either through the eye opening or through the ductus lacrimalis to nasal cavities

the reason why we see so often chameleons “clean” their eyes in captivity is because we make their eyes moist with misting unnatural way mainly. The leessurized hypotinic wayer gets sprayed with high soeed
Against their eyes (and and bodies and interior if the cage). The hypotonic water gets into the eyes and starts to itritate them (same as your eyes would be irritated and would burn if you put rainwater or simply sweet water into them!!! Try yourself how it feels - you will also produce tears and want to get rid of that irritating hypotonic water!) and this is why they rinse their eyes.

noone ever has reported a chameleon seing a source of water to go deliberately there and open the eyes take in water and rinse their eyes. It is absurd and it does nit happen.
the only vertebrate doing such thing is based on ny knowledge the human. So, we get anthropomorphic and want to believe that chameleons do the same fir the same purpose. But they do not!