Is our Approach to Naturalistic Humidity Correct?

The information described in theory makes a lot of sense, but rather than working on changing a significant variables on a small sliver of an environment, shouldn't we work on balancing and finding a reliable schedule that allows for an equilibrium when it comes to humidity and temperature? As most people are housing Cham's indoors, the space they are provided is somewhat limited. What I would say is that if anything for the information that's been provided it should be focused on larger enclosures as these changes indoors on say a screened enclosure smaller than 2x2x4 will have dramatic fluxes.

Larger enclosures, say 2x4x4 for example would provide adequate space for a humid zone and a 'hot' zone. This would provide our chams more of a choice. As we are limiting their space, a larger enclosure that provides both zones should be ideal enough for them to find the best spot to perch to get what they need at the time.
 
DeremensisBlue said:
Just for reference, the website back end which will explain this system in more detail is
Hydration
https://chameleonacademy.com/chameleon-cage-set-up-naturalistic-hydration/

Lighting
https://chameleonacademy.com/chameleon-cage-set-up-replicating-the-sun/

Integrating feedback from your chameleon
https://chameleonacademy.com/cage-feedback-from-chameleon/
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Great Posts. Thanks for taking the time to provide your thoughts and reasoning.

I will have to delve into the back end, as I have not as of yet to a good extent of understanding I skimmed it a bit.

The issue I saw, and reasoning for this thread is exactly that. As you said, the OP yeilds what is being posted exactly. No link to the back end, nor any mention of it.

When I first wrote this entire spill, I was not even aware this guide was yours, not until later was I made aware of that fact. It was stated to a new keeper as a "Follow this to a T".

I do agree that the systems like Dale and myself have been exploring, with recreation of Sunrise, and Sunset, UVB bulbs that Ramp, ect is sort of out of hands for new keepers.

There is an interesting new product that may change that, a UVB LED is now in existence, and its expensive and will need thorough testing, and then a company to build fixtures and sell them, that can provide that Ramp up and Ramp down, in an easy fashion for the normal user. Which is likely a ways off.

However even then, will the users justify the cost. That's the hard part. It's hard to sell an average user on 600 dollar LED system, when a 4 bulb T5 system seemingly works fine. We see this with the Mist King LEDs. The advantages are there, but they still may be out of range with what the normal user is prepared to pay.

I will read through the back end, as it seems that it address quite a few of my questioning. Then we need to inspire keepers to read it in its entirety, not just link the infographic and the text wall and call it a day, as is being done. :).
 
Where are you finding dimmable t5 UVB bulbs? Reef fixtures have come down a ton in pricing since the production of LED systems have come onto the market. If I can find a dimmable t5 for UVB I'd be interested in trying the ramp as those fixtures that support dimming are not crazy expensive anymore. Just have to find the fixture for the niche that no longer needs it. When it's focused to a new niche, that's where the seller is going to mark it up for supply and demand.
 
When I first wrote this entire spill, I was not even aware this guide was yours, not until later was I made aware of that fact. It was stated to a new keeper as a "Follow this to a T".

false !! all I said was , this may be helpful :) also said that's what i'm TRYING to implement . I don't even follow it to a T but use it more as a guide line .
 
Dry Season vs. Wet Season

The debate between whether we should use dry season or wet season conditions is one that can go on forever so I have had to boil it down to what is important. I have used adequate chameleon hydration as what is important in my care recommendations. So the husbandry question is - what hydration protocol gives adequate hydration? I measure this by poop moisture, urate color, and behavior when presented with water for drinking. This is why there is a dripper at 3PM. If my chameleon wants to drink from the dripper I review my hydration. It is there as a test to make sure all is well with the system. I always like to have tests to make sure everything is working.

If we establish that our chameleon is hydrated then it really doesn’t matter what season we are replicating unless there are cues necessary for triggering breeding. If there is a benefit established for having the annual shift in rain or dry beyond hydration then I'll have to integrate that. But I haven't come across that data yet.

If our chameleon is hydrated then there is no reason to add more water, misting, or spraying into the system. If you do and it has worked for all your years of chameleon keeping then there is no reason to change. The system I am now sharing has the advantages that it reduces the drinking that chameleons have to do during the day and it reduces the amount of wet surfaces the cage has during the day. These are both positives that are worth integrating. On the other hand, adding more humidity or hydration into the system isn't necessarily a bad thing and if the general environment (plants) need it then that is another consideration. I have ages where I do humidity higher than are on these charts because the plants do great. And having a healthy thriving overall environment is the goal. Chameleons will do just fine in these conditions. The real trip point is when surfaces are wet all the time. That is when it has gone too far. So we have a "window" there. And these are the nuances that require much discussion. This is why I will never run out of topics for podcast episodes.

I have resisted making care summary sheets and do so now only because the internet world expects them. There is the trend that people ask questions and they listen to not the most experienced people, but the ones with the simplest answer. So all of us who realize we know 10% of what we need to know are explaining all of that and their eyes glaze over. Then they go to a digital vending machine and get a simple answer that is woefully inadequate and walk away happy. We humans seem to embrace simple answers more than correct messy answers. I know some of you know the challenge in distilling our decades of experience into sound bites. It just isn't easy. As much as we want to just roll our eyes and walk away from the challenge, that is what the public needs. And so, if we want to stay relevant, we need to figure out a way to give them both pretty pictures AND solid information. This is my first shot at walking that balance.

Here is my first shot at a care summary sheet that has a little bit of explanation as to how to implement the care requirements. The key is having that link there and the website backend ready to explain. I can't force anyone to actually do that, but many people do!
care sheet Panther Chameleon 122819.jpg
 
When it comes to wet/dry seasons the other thing to take in mind is that the temperatures of the environment vary with cooler wet seasons and hotter dry seasons. There has to be some correlation at some point where this is useful to a cham besides setting the internal clock to getting ready to breed.

As an Engineer and someone who marvels at stacks of data and can't help but look for similarities in other species when it comes to trying to find answers to unknown questions. Wet seasons tend to bring out sources of food where during a dry season food would logically be more sparse and lots of species would be hiding in the brush to get out of the direct heat.
 
Tihshho said:
When it comes to wet/dry seasons the other thing to take in mind is that the temperatures of the environment vary with cooler wet seasons and hotter dry seasons. There has to be some correlation at some point where this is useful to a cham besides setting the internal clock to getting ready to breed.

As an Engineer and someone who marvels at stacks of data and can't help but look for similarities in other species when it comes to trying to find answers to unknown questions. Wet seasons tend to bring out sources of food where during a dry season food would logically be more sparse and lots of species would be hiding in the brush to get out of the direct heat.
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This is logical and reasonable. We just have to figure out what those benefits/requirements are. Even just showing a general overall health increase without being able to pinpoint anything specific would be enough for me. The problem is sorting out what about the changes are things they just tolerate / take advantage of and which things they have evolved to depend on. This, of course, is where we hobbyists come in as we make observations over the years and generations of keeping them and trying different husbandry methods.
 
Tihshho said:
The information described in theory makes a lot of sense, but rather than working on changing a significant variables on a small sliver of an environment, shouldn't we work on balancing and finding a reliable schedule that allows for an equilibrium when it comes to humidity and temperature? As most people are housing Cham's indoors, the space they are provided is somewhat limited. What I would say is that if anything for the information that's been provided it should be focused on larger enclosures as these changes indoors on say a screened enclosure smaller than 2x2x4 will have dramatic fluxes.

Larger enclosures, say 2x4x4 for example would provide adequate space for a humid zone and a 'hot' zone. This would provide our chams more of a choice. As we are limiting their space, a larger enclosure that provides both zones should be ideal enough for them to find the best spot to perch to get what they need at the time.
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I completely agree, I also think that the past/current cage sizing suggestions are not really ideal, I am not alone in this. The Kammers have changed their suggestions, I think Bill has? I seen a post the other day from Frank Payne, stating the same. I think Bills Atriums, are the size we should be pushing, the 2x2x4, was a compromise, and a logic built by the caging companys who said "Arboreal? they just need height, forget width, build it higher". That then sold, it worked, and so it stuck. Those companys will never make the changes, as long as people keep buying, thats why we have to look at better companies Like Dragon Strand, who are working in our and the chams interest.

My Panther is in a 4wx2dx4h and he uses every single inch of the 4 feet wide, every single day, he rarely uses below the top 2 feet however, and thats 4ft tall from the soil (Bioactive) so 4ft of usable space. He never uses the bottom 12 inches, ever. Only goes below 24 inches to sleep usually.

My humidity as a bioactive with natural "foggers" in place, also is very gradient. I have 40k lumens worth of LEDs, they put out some heat, and I use a Arcadia Deep heat for the "Basking Spot" between them they reduce the humidity in the upper areas, to 40-50% tops, during the day non misting. However in the lower levels, I have an Arcea Palm, that transpires an INSANE amount of water, the humidity around that plant is always 80%+ Its still smaller, 24 inches tall, as the largest I could get in my state was a 10 inch baby plant, some states have access to the 4ft monsters at home stores however. @6ft, they will transpire over a liter of water a night NASA's air study found. They are also native to Panthers locales.

Tihshho said:
Where are you finding dimmable t5 UVB bulbs? Reef fixtures have come down a ton in pricing since the production of LED systems have come onto the market. If I can find a dimmable t5 for UVB I'd be interested in trying the ramp as those fixtures that support dimming are not crazy expensive anymore. Just have to find the fixture for the niche that no longer needs it. When it's focused to a new niche, that's where the seller is going to mark it up for supply and demand.
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So AFAIK, from the company's I have talked to and the lighting gurus, all Flo bulbs are dimmable, including UVB bulbs. Its the fixture that has to provide the function of dimming.

Now, the real question is does the UVB scale with the output, thats something we need someone with both a Solar Meter 6.5(R), a 6.2(R) and a 6.3. So they can then measure at each level of dimming, and see the scaling, and how this will all work in tandem. I am not sure if Dale has done this yet, we spoke about it long ago, but I am not sure of his getting to it or not, I personally have not gotten around to that aspect yet.

My lights are so bright, that flipping a T5 on or off, when my CW is on full blast (40k Lumens) you cant even tell when the UVB flips on, so that has been on the backburner for me.

Now with the advent of these UVB LEDs I have found, I might skip the T5 and go straight to the UVBs. The 2 issues with them that I see, is they are very powerful, VERY POWERFUL, its said that looking into them while on will cause blindness, for a bit, like a Welding Flash Burn. So they will need to be dimmed, they are also a point source which we know from the coils to be bad. So they will need to be extremely diffused, and even then may still hotspot. Which will lead to more needing to be used, and more diffusing. The other issue ties in with that, they are 50 dollars each LED, not cobs, just small Stars.

Their advantage however, is they put out UVB in the 290-300 range, that range is solely the UVB D3 Range as far as I understand, under 290, you start getting into more of the UVC range, where the light poses serious danger, and over 300 your in the UVA range, both still fall into the UVB range as well, as a sort of overlap. Our current bulbs put out 280-320, most of that does not produce d3, some of that destroys d3 (under 290). the LEDs are said to put out the most around the 295 mark, where 294 is the most D3 Synthesis.

Now even with this, Reptiles see UVA, it changes the way things look to them causes a glow of sorts to certain colors, and its important for them to be provided with UVA as well, so now we also need to add UVA to the LED fixture, which isnt that hard, as its commonly used in Aquarium lighting, those are easily available.

Now we need Diffusers, and we are going against the grain. Acrylic by nature doesn't block UV Wavelenghts, that is an added feature. However its a feature that is added to 99.9% of acrylic, as that is a common want, and we dont want it. You would think its easy to find some that leaves that out, its not. It can be had, its not cheap, and not easy to source in small quantity's. So that is another thing we will have to tackle with the LEDs.

This is why its on my back burner lol. The first thing I would like to add myself, is UVA. That has been a serious downside to LED lighting in the reptile industry for me. All Flos put out UVA, by their nature. Which the reptile needs. The LEDs put it out too, but in much smaller amounts, and common diffusers, will block that anyway, so we need special diffusers to boot.
 
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Tihshho said:
When it comes to wet/dry seasons the other thing to take in mind is that the temperatures of the environment vary with cooler wet seasons and hotter dry seasons. There has to be some correlation at some point where this is useful to a cham besides setting the internal clock to getting ready to breed.

As an Engineer and someone who marvels at stacks of data and can't help but look for similarities in other species when it comes to trying to find answers to unknown questions. Wet seasons tend to bring out sources of food where during a dry season food would logically be more sparse and lots of species would be hiding in the brush to get out of the direct heat.
Click to expand...

I 100% agree, there has to be a correlation in there.

However, just wanted to point out that is backwards, Wet Season is the hotter part of the year, the dry season is cooler. That doesn't make sense to us in the States (unless your in Florida maybe), when its hot its drier, and when its wet its cooler. However thats not the case in Madagascar.

The plants show that same need, the hotter it is, the wetter they have to be. The plants have too adapted to the high rainfall, the water drys faster in that heat, but they are wet once again. The Nepenthes madagascariensis is a great example of this. It inhibits, the sea level and slightly above range of the eastern coast (Tamative range). People in the CP hobby have mostly all but given up. I have found 4-5 people that have managed to cultivate a large productive plant. Its such a balancing act, that its very difficult to cultivate. It wants Lowland Temps, and High Land water. It almost needs a full on bucket of water to be set into, yet it grows in plains, not swamps.

I have tried 4 seedlings now, from 2 different suppliers, killed them all, my last one lasted the longest and it was in the Viv, however my reservoir ran dry for a day while I was away. That was a wrap. Thats all it took, 4ish mistings missed and it dropped, not instantly but within the following couple of days. I have sense removed the reservoir and directly run my Mistking with an RO feed :p. My next attempt will be with W&Z clones, as I am being told that seedlings of the species are very prone to die off either way, people were amazed I kept that one alive for 2 months, and threw 3 new pitchers. Apparently the seedlings are extremely susceptible to shock. And at 50-75 I have been paying for seedlings, its getting to be expensive failures lol.

Thats a large part of my theory about the water, I think we are seeing alot of these water techniques, work because chams are more hardy, they are better at adapting then some of these plants that share their home. Which is strange, as I dont know of anywhere else panthers have established. Some of the plants (that I keep), have established. Nephrolepis cordifolia have established in Florida, I believe as well as Asplenium nidus (not truly endemic to Madagascar though) in Florida as well.

My experience with those, is the same, SERIOUS WATER. I have manged after 4 plants, (killed the first 2) to have 2 A. nidus, mounted, they are an easy house plant when watered daily and in a pot. However when just set on driftwood, as it would be in Situ, not so easy lol. I think the cham plays a role in this however. I have read that in situ, they are toilets and they use the poo for fert, and to build a crown protection, as its said they cant be watered from above, but they are nature and they are for me.

Now with alot of keepers, we use the plants that are easy to keep and go along with the design we have for the cham, whatever that may be per keeper. However in my endeavor of recreating the wild, every single plant shares locale with at least 1 panther species. I'd love all Ambilobe Plants, but thats hard to pull off, few plants available in the hobby. Even just using Panther Locale Plants, has been a serious exercise, these plants are harder to care for then chams, alot of them. Everything has to be perfect, to get even survival never mind growth. Especially when you get super eccentric like me, and want them to all be as they would in Situ. Epiphytes mounted, ect. It has required many micro climates, well placed misters, well placed plants, ect.

Now thats my thesis, and it could prove futile, and we wont know for quite some time like @kinyonga said. I just cant fathom how if both the plants and the cham are from the same micro climates, and the more delicate plants are not thriving, how the Cham could be, when neither are found anywhere else.
 
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Cage Size:
I would love to tell everyone to get a 4'w x 2'd x 4' h cage, at least, for every chameleon species. I kept a Bradypodion thamnobates in that size and the gradients and microclimates I could produce were wonderful. But the fact is that chameleons can be kept in smaller cages and can live a long unstressed life in smaller cages if they are set up correctly. It pains me to put a female panther chameleon at 18"x18"x36". But I know that it can be done and it can be done effectively. So I have taken the approach to list what I would consider a suggested minimum and then spend most of my energy telling people how to design the interior so it would be effective. I have seen some 4'x2'x4' cages set-ups that are not effective just because there were no plant hiding spaces. So a bigger cage does not equal better if the basic skill or knowledge isn't there. And if that skill is there then smaller cages can be made to work quite easily. Anytime we put ourselves in a position to put one number on a piece of paper it will always be a compromise and you have to decide which bottle of poison to take. Once again, I use the website back end to explain all of this. I wouldn't be happy with any of this if I couldn't explain in more detail.

Panther husbandry and Madagascar plant husbandry:
I think looking at environmental conditions required of life forms around the animal in question is a great way to approach the problem and adds additional insight. I would caution that animals move and plants don't so there is a whole different dynamic as far as being able to regulate conditions independent from the ambient. Plants do this by growing larger and greener leaves in shady areas and smaller and lighter leaves in bright sun (very gross generalization). Animals regulate by changing where they are. It is all data that goes into putting together the whole picture. The care parameters shown on this data sheet are proven to work to raise up panthers. They are hardly the only parameters that will work. But with a care sheet what I want is a protocol that will work well and can be reproduced. The purpose of these care sheets are to get someone started on the right foot, not to characterize the species. I'd be happy to modify it, but to what? What numbers, if you were to select one number, would you pick? A 24 hour ebb and flow of numbers? It is hard enough for people to reproduce one number during the day and one during the night. If that is required for optimal husbandry then it doesn't matter how hard it is to communicate and I'll add an entire second sheet to present it and do a podcast episode on it like I did on the need for fans/ventilation when fogging. But for me to complicate the care requirements I would be looking for evidence as to what difference it made.

Why I Changed the Hydration Cycle:
So if I want to keep things simple, why did I totally complicate the hydration cycle and shift that around? I certainly have no need or desire to change things up just for the sake of things being changed or hopping on the latest band wagon. The reason why I finally changed what I was saying about hydration and adopted this switch is because it solved problems that had been bugging the community for years. Why were my chameleons drinking so much during the day when we know they don't in the wild? I knew there was something unnatural going on. Once I switched to what I am showing with high humidity at night all of that went away. There was a significant and observable change. So after a year of studying it and questioning and researching and testing I switched my entire husbandry over to it. And it has been working very well. For those of you that want to wait 7 years to see if chameleons on this system live as long, that is fine. That is cautious and wise. But I maintain that raising adults, reproducing, and raising up the babies under the system is enough to consider it a valid approach. I will also continue to push to get vitamin D3 and pre-formed vitamin A out of our supplementation. My supplementation recommendation has both of those fat soluble vitamins still in it because there is still more work I need to do before I am comfortable recommending it. It works for me and it works for other breeders, but it doesn't work for all breeders and until I figure out why it works for some and not others I can't recommend it. So there are some examples of how I determine when it is safe/appropriate to recommend certain husbandry. And, we can all live in the world together. I can back up what is on this care sheet and care only that it is effective. I have no desire that people who have been misting three times during the day and producing 7 year old panthers to switch their routine. If it works then follow it. That does not threaten or invalidate anything that I am doing and nothing that I am doing invalidates systems that have been producing long lived chameleons.

Bill
 
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PS. If we have found an effective balance within the present supplementations that include vitamin D3 and A that produce long lived chameleons (we have) then why put all this energy into figuring out how to get them out of the diet? Simply because giving them orally bypasses the body's internal regulation and it can overdose the chameleon. So do we test and experiment to see how much of a certain supplement each species needs or do we figure out the UVB levels and carotenoid combination necessary to allow the body to do what it was designed to do? I am picking the latter. Because everyone needs a hobby.
 
DeremensisBlue said:
Cage Size:
I would love to tell everyone to get a 4'w x 2'd x 4' h cage, at least, for every chameleon species. I kept a Bradypodion thamnobates in that size and the gradients and microclimates I could produce were wonderful. But the fact is that chameleons can be kept in smaller cages and can live a long unstressed life in smaller cages if they are set up correctly. It pains me to put a female panther chameleon at 18"x18"x36". But I know that it can be done and it can be done effectively. So I have taken the approach to list what I would consider a suggested minimum and then spend most of my energy telling people how to design the interior so it would be effective. I have seen some 4'x2'x4' cages set-ups that are not effective just because there were no plant hiding spaces. So a bigger cage does not equal better if the basic skill or knowledge isn't there. And if that skill is there then smaller cages can be made to work quite easily. Anytime we put ourselves in a position to put one number on a piece of paper it will always be a compromise and you have to decide which bottle of poison to take. Once again, I use the website back end to explain all of this. I wouldn't be happy with any of this if I couldn't explain in more detail.

Panther husbandry and Madagascar plant husbandry:
I think looking at environmental conditions required of life forms around the animal in question is a great way to approach the problem and adds additional insight. I would caution that animals move and plants don't so there is a whole different dynamic as far as being able to regulate conditions independent from the ambient. Plants do this by growing larger and greener leaves in shady areas and smaller and lighter leaves in bright sun (very gross generalization). Animals regulate by changing where they are. It is all data that goes into putting together the whole picture. The care parameters shown on this data sheet are proven to work to raise up panthers. They are hardly the only parameters that will work. But with a care sheet what I want is a protocol that will work well and can be reproduced. These purpose of these care sheets are to get someone started on the right foot, not to characterize the species. I'd be happy to modify it, but to what? What numbers, if you were to select one number, would you pick? A 24 hour ebb and flow of numbers? It is hard enough for people to reproduce one number during the day and one during the night. If that is required for optimal husbandry then it doesn't matter how hard it is to communicate and I'll add an entire second sheet to present it and do a podcast episode on it like I did on the need for fans/ventilation when fogging. But for me to complicate the care requirements I would be looking for evidence as to what difference it made.

Why I Changed the Hydration Cycle:
So if I want to keep things simple, why did I totally complicate the hydration cycle and shift that around? I certainly have no need or desire to change things up just for the sake of things being changed or hopping on the latest band wagon. The reason why I finally changed what I was saying about hydration and adopted this switch is because it solved problems that had been bugging the community for years. Why were my chameleons drinking so much during the day when we know they don't in the wild? I knew there was something unnatural going on. Once I switched to what I am showing with high humidity at night all of that went away. There was a significant and observable change. So after a year of studying it and questioning and researching and testing I switched my entire husbandry over to it. And it has been working very well. For those of you that want to wait 7 years to see if chameleons on this system live as long, that is fine. That is cautious and wise. But I maintain that raising adults, reproducing, and raising up the babies under the system is enough to consider it a valid approach. I will also continue to push to get vitamin D3 and pre-formed vitamin A out of our supplementation. My supplementation recommendation has both of those fat soluble vitamins still in it because there is still more work I need to do before I am comfortable recommending it. It works for me and it works for other breeders, but it doesn't work for all breeders and until I figure out why it works for some and not others I can't recommend it. So there are some examples of how I determine when it is safe/appropriate to recommend certain husbandry. And, we can all live in the world together. I can back up what is on this care sheet and care only that it is effective. I have no desire that people who have been misting three times during the day and producing 7 year old panthers to switch their routine. If it works then follow it. That does not threaten or invalidate anything that I am doing and nothing that I am doing invalidates systems that have been producing long lived chameleons.

Bill
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Agreed on most of this, where your coming from makes plenty of sense.

I am not trying to invalidate, anything you or anyone else do, just trying to open the convo, to see if we can make it better :), always be questioning always be improving. I think all of his here, want the same end goal, to provide the best care we can for our captive animals :).

Enclosure Size:
I agree whole hardheartedly. My statement was not meant to come off as every keeper should have a 4x2x4, it would be great if they could, but space constraints and what not, lead that to not always be possible.

My suggestion was more on line with stating, I personally feel from what I have experienced, and seen, and what others seem to be noticing, is that your Atrium Style seems preferable. Do you experience a preference with either sizes? Do you feel that a 30/36x18x36 not preferable to a 2x2x4? Obviously there is a concern to be had with breeders, the space of 2x2, makes more cages for less wall space, and is certainly a factor. Thats not to say a 2x2x4, wont work just that a 3x2x3 (roughly) would be a more suitable size, if the owner can accommodate.

Then again, we have many keepers with cages on the floor, and in that case a 36 tall, would not be ideal. It would need to be raised while being not as tall. Just curious of your thoughts on that, as to your mention of sizing.

Panther husbandry and Madagascar plant husbandry:
Agreed 100%, and it does lead to insight as well, as to why I am in my project a stickler for Situ. Micro climates are a major part of Plant Life, as they are to Chams. That is why I stated, that placement has been a major part of the undertaking. A short example.

I have SUPER Bright lights, as stated full 100% on the 5600k COBs is about 40k lumens. Now compared to sun light thats shade, but as far as artificial lighting, for a 4ft x 2ft area, thats pretty hefty. The plants, are variable, as you stated their micro climates differ so drastically.

An Angraecum sesquipedale grows just below the top of the canopy. This presents it with A TON of light, a ton of ventilation, and a constant source of being wettened, then drying quickly afterwords. Humidity is not that high, due to the hot sun, and the plants are dried quickly, but rains provide it with enough water to survive.

An Asplenium nidus grows in the middle of the canopy. On dead trees middle height trunks, on branches, ect. The humidity here is higher, than the orchids, however its still not as high as a wet soil floor. They want a more dappled light, a bright shade. If too much light is provided, the leaves will pale, and not be their vibrant greens. They give us good insight to their light needs this way, as well as their humidity requirements.

We round out our soil with Nephrolepis cordifolia (Nephrolepis exaltata may work as well and is easier to obtain). This guy, wants very low light. and very high humidity. He is at the soil of the canopy where there is little light, and LOTS of wet soil to provide humidity. They are alarmingly delicate. I actually thought my first dead, it dropped every single leaf, I was luckily was able to source another. After planting the second, that one now looks HORRID, its dropped 70% of its leaves, and is dropping more everyday. However my first subject has grown all new stems, and new leaves, and is springing back to a healthy beautiful plant, but it has taken MONTHS. I think these guys are very prone to stress issues.

Anyway, the point being that those 3 are a pretty good gradient check. As they have vastly different requirements even though they reside in the same square area, they are at different heights in the canopy. Kind of like what we try to do for our chams, as said they move. So if we have the gradients they move within is right, then their micro gradients should be as well, at least IMO. ITs very hard to setup that gradient in a 4ft cage as well, of that I think we can all agree. I have already had the urge to move my entire project to a much larger viv, and likely will come summer. 4ft tall just isnt enough for what I aim to achieve, a 6-7ft inner height is much more preferable. I will be making quite a few changes as well, to my Venting Methods as well as the doors and much more. Which really sucks, I got a ton into this cage, the doors alone were 200 dollars, and I am going to have to scrap them (or leave them with this cage and re purpose it) and buy new ones, this time I will cut some cost, as I will go with 1/8 inch instead of 1/4, as the 1/4 is already way to heavy lol. Nevermind adding 20+ inches to the door size.
 
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Tihshho said:
Cyberloc, I'm down to look into this if we can get others to bounce findings over with.
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Which Part? the UV lights? Forsure, I am not sure if buying all the meters needed is the better option, or building our own would be better. the tech of the meter, isnt really that much. The issue with the pricing of the meter, is they wanted a solid solution that was waterproof ect, and lens on the Solarmeters is a good half the cost. Not saying the solar meters cost isnt justified, it is for the package they present, just saying we really dont need some of the features that drive that cost so high.

We would also need to be able to isolate the UVB spectrum, both D3 producing and non, as well as UVA, which as I listed, would require 2 or even better 3 different meters. At 250 per meter, that cost skyrockets. There is UV meters for Arduino, that would work, and we could code it to do all 3 functions, for likely about 100 dollars, by dropping the quartz lens for waterproofing ect. It would far from be a user friendly solution like the solar meter, and we would still need to verify its functionality with solar meters, but maybe could rent those. Me and @dshuld had talked about this project before, but funds time in the day, ect. Never got around to it, at least I didn't, maybe he did.

It would likely be a good idea, to start a thread about that, I was going to the other day, but got tied up.

I truly think that recreating Natural Lighting would be a huge boon for everyone in the hobby. If we would get the cost down, and a simple easy to read plan to do so, that would be helpful, if a business was get involved, or even a few of us got together to make the "fixtures" on the side, that would be good for alot of the folks that are scared to work with electricity. I do not think having better lighting is anthropomorphizing at all.

I think that is one of the biggest places the hobby has fell flat. I can sympathize with cost especially with breeders, who need tons of lights. However there is no way I can envision not having naturalistic lighting is not a positive to our animals. Arguably the Reefers fish have less subtle light changes during the day than reptiles, so why is their lighting so much more advanced than ours? Or at least, I would think the light changes would have less affect on the fish, maybe not the coral.

Thats why I linked the article.

"No artificial lighting system in the world can provide the full spectrum and intensity of natural sunlight, its subtle changes in color as a day progresses, or the sun’s movement across the sky. For these reasons alone, the more natural daylight a reptile experiences, the better. “Natural daylight” may not always mean full sunlight; a herpkeeper must aim to provide species-appropriate lighting."
http://www.reptilesmagazine.com/Reptile-Health/Habitats-Care/Reptile-Lighting-Information/.

that has been a huge influence on me on even starting this project. That article is old, and back then they were right, we couldn't provide the full abilities of the sun. Today we can, and we can do it for not that much more than what we are paying for our T5s. The difference being mainly on Sustained cost VS Upfront cost.

If we can provide the amount of light that 4 T5s offer, for half the wattage, and control their nuisances throughout the day why not do it? Yes the upfront cost is double or triple the price of that quad T5, however the cost of replacing bulbs and the price of electricity per year, the price balances out in the end over the life of the animal.

Spend 400 on LEDs, never replace a bulb, and pay half as much in electric over the lifetime. I have mentioned that here before, many times. I was rebuttaled with "But it doesn't add much to my electric bill" on the surface it doesn't, however your not taking everything into account.

Lets math that for the Life of a Cham. 100ws from the quad fixture, times 12 hours a day, is 1200 watts per day. Or 1.2kwh, now times that by 1 month, and we have 36 KWH a month. My price per KWH is $.12. So that $4.32 per month to run that quad, or 51.82 per year. Now times that by 7 years, and the average bulb replacement at 10 dollars each, which will need replaced lets say 3 times. We have just a hair under 500 dollars, lets round it for just in case.

500 Dollars is the price to run the Quad Fixture for 7 years, a quad from LYRs is 200 dollars all said and done, about. so 700 dollars, for the 7 years assuming the ballast doesn't die.

Now lets do an LED fixture, we are trying to match the 8000 lumens provided by the T5s. We can easily match that with 1 cob, but we want a better spread, so we will use 2 get more LM/W. So my cobs will run that, across 2 at about 20 watts each, we will use this as our solid light basis. Now we throw in a 3rd cob, this will be our WW for dawn and dusk, throw in some UVA lights to balance the light and add that UVA this will also help with spectrum adjustments.

75 for the cobs, 50 for a heatsink, going to need some meanwells to drive it, and some various bits, say 50 more, and a Power Supply lets add in another 50, we need a controller to make the magic happen, another 25. Rough estimations, but we are at 250, no UVB LEDs yet, but lets set those aside for now.

This fixture uses about 40 watts full power, it wont be full power all day, but lets go with 40 anyway.

Now lets math out the price to run this, 40ws, lets say 50 to make things easier and account for driver inefficiency (again this is still more than typical either way) .6 KWH per day, times 30 days thats 18 KWH per month or $2.16. Now times that by a year, $25.92. Lets go this time by 7 years, $181.44.

So now we have a total of 431.44 vs the total of 700 dollars for the Flos. And thats if you ran the CWs maxed (or their equivalent) all day long. Even if we added the cost of 3 of the UVB LEDs, thats only 150 added, were at 581.44, if we add a Wifi Controller, that is hidden in the fixture with more features, we add another 75, and we are at 656.44.

Now obviously this is DIY price, want someone to build it, add a fee, but even if we add 100 dollar building fee, we are at 756.44, and now we have UVB remember, so we can subtract the yearly bulb changes of UVB flos, at 50 per year, which is another 350, putting our Flo cost at 1150.

That got kind of ranty, and not very well structured sorry for that lol. But the point stands, I really do not know why this isnt the direction the hobby has headed, and still isnt.
 
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I haven't read all into this post and I'm not disagreeing with anyone. Definitely many ways to go with it. I've found the fogging at night+ weekly long showers has worked well for my Parsons and my situation over winter.

One thing I am curious about that I see posted a lot is that chams hate being misted. I've found differently. Sure, being sprayed out of nowhere is probably a shock considering they have no other signals that water is coming, other than maybe dim light if we shut off light beforehand. In almost every case once mine realized what was happening, they'd walk out into the water and 'bathe'. I do like to keep some spots of the cage dry so they can choose, but my Panthers and especially Parsons would willingly walk into the water. Maybe compare it to jumping into a pool? We wouldn't say a kid hates the pool because the first minute they're nervous to jump in and are shivering once they do. It'a just a shock.

I'm referring to misting BTW, I'd imagine not many animals would want to be out in the middle of an obnoxious heavy downpour of raindrops.
 
jamest0o0 said:
I haven't read all into this post and I'm not disagreeing with anyone. Definitely many ways to go with it. I've found the fogging at night+ weekly long showers has worked well for my Parsons and my situation over winter.

One thing I am curious about that I see posted a lot is that chams hate being misted. I've found differently. Sure, being sprayed out of nowhere is probably a shock considering they have no other signals that water is coming other than maybe dim light if we shut off light beforehand. In almost every case once mine realized what was happening, they'd walk out into the water and 'bathe'. I do like to keep some spots of the cage dry so they can choose, but my Panthers and especially Parsons would willingly walk into the water. Maybe compare it to jumping into a pool? We wouldn't say a kid hates the pool because the first minute they're nervous to jump in and are shivering once they do. It'a just a shock.

I'm referring to misting BTW, I'd imagine not many animals would want to be out in the middle of an obnoxious heavy downpour of raindrops.
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My panther does the same thing, he will freak out and crawl under something at first, but then he will slowly come out, until he is fully being sprayed by a mister. Since I changed the lighting, he seems to have mostly caught on, when they go off he finds a shelter, 80% of the time. I do wish the change wasn't as abrupt (Which was always the plan for me removing abrupt changes).

I planned to have the lighting finished before he moved into the big viv, but had stuff come up, so he has been in there for about a month, without it done. It will be done in the next couple weeks though, Dimmer hopefully this week.

I think dimming the lights is a great start, and something we should be doing regardless of misting, or not throughout the day. However I think if we took that further as misting was concerned, maybe turn on a fan, spritz the mister to raise humidity a bit, we can give them more of a countdown.
 
cyberlocc said:
My panther does the same thing, he will freak out and crawl under something at first, but then he will slowly come out, until he is fully being sprayed by a mister. Since I changed the lighting, he seems to have mostly caught on, when they go off he finds a shelter, 80% of the time. I do wish the change wasn't as abrupt (Which was always the plan for me removing abrupt changes).

I planned to have the lighting finished before he moved into the big viv, but had stuff come up, so he has been in there for about a month, without it done. It will be done in the next couple weeks though, Dimmer hopefully this week.

I think dimming the lights is a great start, and something we should be doing regardless of misting, or not throughout the day. However I think if we took that further as misting was concerned, maybe turn on a fan, spritz the mister to raise humidity a bit, we can give them more of a countdown.
Click to expand...

All good ideas as usual! I love the idea of having dimmable lights/fans/etc.
 
jamest0o0 said:
All good ideas as usual! I love the idea of having dimmable lights/fans/etc.
Click to expand...

I have been contemplating heavily making a post about that. I got half a write up done, but have still been reserved. The lighting I mean.

I truly feel that is the greatest area this community has fell Flat. I see the reef keepers make advancement after advancement, in trying to make their fish have lower stress levels and more natural lighting. Meanwhile the Reptile Industry, who are arguably more sensitive to light and its Positions, Colors, Brightness, ect, and our Lighting businesses release LEDs with a few hundred more lumens per watt and call it innovation.

I dont blame the businesses and am not attacking them. Quite the contrary, Arcadia was attacked for this with their new Jungle Dawn, on a post, and I defended them. As a business owner myself I can see it from their side. They are innovating in a way they feel their market will bare, so I think the blame is on both. The community is showing appeasement, and in the cases where advancement has been attempted (the Jungle Dawn LEDs) they were ignored. Arcadia doesnt want to invest R&D into a product that wont sell, and Herp Keepers, are either not aware of the advancements, why they should use it, or lack avaible easy to obtain and setup options.

So we find ourselves in a bit of stalemate, and innovation stops. At least thats my take on it.
 
cyberlocc said:
While I do agree, that natural keeping is better, this is not natural conditions they have come to expect. Our Chameleons (unless yours in WC) have never lived in the wild, they expect the conditions they were raised under, the conditions that their breeder provided dont you think?
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yiu seem to forget that fir tens if millions of years, the cbameleons lived in the wild in their environment. Thinking rhat one gegeratii. Or even oart of the life changes this just bexause the keeper provides somethinv different is something that i do not emieve yiu can suggest seriously.
 
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