Is keeping WC animals ethical?

[jamest0o0]

Okay, to start, I didn't know where to put this because it isn't really directed at chameleons... I'm all for keeping WC in the cases of breeding to increase/make possible CB populations of animals. Crabs are the main animal that got me thinking... I've really wanted a land crab(patriot and/or vampire crabs to be exact) I always found crustaceans to be among the coolest inverts. Something that bothers me is that I believe many of these types almost have to be WC and are near impossible to breed in captivity. I feel like keeping them as pets does nothing good for them as much as I'd love to get some. Would there be any positives to keeping them as far as the species goes? Or maybe breeding is umm slightly possible and could make for a fun/big project, idk?

BTW this doesn't only refer to crabs, but to any animal that is in a similar situation with breeding difficulties.
I wanted to hear some thoughts on the matter, ATM I'm uncertain how to feel so I figured I'd get some feedback from the wise people at CF!

 

[ElliotG]

This has always been a really iffy subject. Hermit crabs are the same, and the treatment they get is super cruel. I won’t ever buy one.

There’s instances I think WC is okay. Like if they’re invasive to the area they were caught in. Like catching a cham in Florida and selling it. You can’t just catch one and put it back, it’s illegal. Florida fish and game would either put it down or you could donate it to a rescue or program. No hurt in selling it.

I’m with you on adding to breeding pool. Or even trying to establish a captive population. Some creatures you can’t do that with and that’s where I think it pushes that ethical line. They’re being pulled out of their habitat just to be sold in the pet trade, but, it’s already there. If you don’t buy it someone else will. It will continue whether you contribute or not.

I’ve been in the same lingo as you but with mellers chameleons. I would love to own one one day but CB are so hard to find. I want to own one of the two bigger chams parsons or mellers. But something about the mellers attract me. Framschams doesn’t help especially when they show their mellers.

I think at the end of the day. It’s your decision on whether it’s ethical enough for you or not.

 

[jamest0o0]

This has always been a really iffy subject. Hermit crabs are the same, and the treatment they get is super cruel. I won’t ever buy one.

There’s instances I think WC is okay. Like if they’re invasive to the area they were caught in. Like catching a cham in Florida and selling it. You can’t just catch one and put it back, it’s illegal. Florida fish and game would either put it down or you could donate it to a rescue or program. No hurt in selling it.

I’m with you on adding to breeding pool. Or even trying to establish a captive population. Some creatures you can’t do that with and that’s where I think it pushes that ethical line. They’re being pulled out of their habitat just to be sold in the pet trade, but, it’s already there. If you don’t buy it someone else will. It will continue whether you contribute or not.

I’ve been in the same lingo as you but with mellers chameleons. I would love to own one one day but CB are so hard to find. I want to own one of the two bigger chams parsons or mellers. But something about the mellers attract me. Framschams doesn’t help especially when they show their mellers.

I think at the end of the day. It’s your decision on whether it’s ethical enough for you or not.

I really appreciate that response and feel pretty much the same as you. If it was possible to breed them or at least if the pet trade isn't hurting their wild populations, I might consider it. I don't want to keep anything for my own benefit if it's hurting the species overall.

Regarding melleri, they too are a dream cham of mine, have you tried dale tamura(think that's how you spell his name)? He has CB melleri in the US.

 

[ElliotG]

I really appreciate that response and feel pretty much the same as you. If it was possible to breed them or at least if the pet trade isn't hurting their wild populations, I might consider it. I don't want to keep anything for my own benefit if it's hurting the species overall.

Regarding melleri, they too are a dream cham of mine, have you tried dale tamura(think that's how you spell his name)? He has CB melleri in the US.

I will say there’s not a lot of hurt in getting a pair and seeing if you could be the break through. Would probably do a ton of research of their natural habitat and try to replicate it. Crustaceans are super difficult animals. Took a zoology class and we did a whole segment on them. The way they’ve evolved to breed is complicated. Hardy animals, can survive almost anything at times, but breeding is a different story.

I haven’t heard of Dale until now. I’ll have to look into it. I’ve been doing research on care for a mellers and how to house them properly. Seem like they’re really sensitive. Also enclosures since it looks like I might have to modify one or build one from scratch.

Youve given me hope on getting a CB mellers now, life is good

 

[jamest0o0]

I will say there’s not a lot of hurt in getting a pair and seeing if you could be the break through. Would probably do a ton of research of their natural habitat and try to replicate it. Crustaceans are super difficult animals. Took a zoology class and we did a whole segment on them. The way they’ve evolved to breed is complicated. Hardy animals, can survive almost anything at times, but breeding is a different story.

I haven’t heard of Dale until now. I’ll have to look into it. I’ve been doing research on care for a mellers and how to house them properly. Seem like they’re really sensitive. Also enclosures since it looks like I might have to modify one or build one from scratch.

Youve given me hope on getting a CB mellers now, life is good

Yup they for sure are! I was reading into their breeding last night. They mate based off lunar cycles, then release the eggs into the ocean, then they need to be able to crawl out (before they drown) and bury in 2 feet of wet sand with lots of micro feeders. I remember fiddler crabs being similar as I was looking into it for possibly keeping cuttlefish(and they need loads of food lol). Seems to be *possible, but incredibly difficult and involved. Would take a whole system designed for breeding them. Maybe worthwhile though?!

Yes, dale is the man for that! Look him up on FB. Has incredible enclosures too.

 

[dinomom]

Okay, to start, I didn't know where to put this because it isn't really directed at chameleons... I'm all for keeping WC in the cases of breeding to increase/make possible CB populations of animals. Crabs are the main animal that got me thinking... I've really wanted a land crab(patriot and/or vampire crabs to be exact) I always found crustaceans to be among the coolest inverts. Something that bothers me is that I believe many of these types almost have to be WC and are near impossible to breed in captivity. I feel like keeping them as pets does nothing good for them as much as I'd love to get some. Would there be any positives to keeping them as far as the species goes? Or maybe breeding is umm slightly possible and could make for a fun/big project, idk?

BTW this doesn't only refer to crabs, but to any animal that is in a similar situation with breeding difficulties.
I wanted to hear some thoughts on the matter, ATM I'm uncertain how to feel so I figured I'd get some feedback from the wise people at CF!

I personally think it depends on the animal.

Obviously I am ok with crabs since I have them. They are massively prolific breeders since only a tiny percentage live to adulthood-they are the food source for countless animals and that is their primary niche (along with scavenging). A wild crab lives in fear 24/7 and just tries to survive long enough to breed. Whereas in captivity, while many are ill-treated, there are those such as mine which live long lives without fear in an environment very close to ideal.

On the other hand, I am old enough to remember quarantine stations and imported parrots. This was an absolute travesty, adult birds trapped, packed by the hundreds in cages with the ones on the bottom suffocating. These are extremely intelligent animals (sorry, hermies..) These animals have only one to three offspring usually, so the trapping had a real impact on their wild populations, and I think each and every one suffered for the rest of its life. In some cases that was not very long as some never could cope with being caged and lived in a constant state of immunosuppression.

But of course we did have to bring in adults to be able to establish the stable populations of captive bred parrots that we are now fortunate enough to have.

And to those who say even captive parrots/frogs/lizards etc. should not be kept, I always point out that a wild animal faces these things on a daily basis:

Constant fear of predation
Starvation, dehydration or inadequate nutrition including die-offs because of this
Pervasive Internal and external parasites
Exposure to severe weather conditions

It is a very good question, and I am not sure there is an answer, except to support captive breeding when and wherever that is possible, and when it is not, provide the very best conditions for the animals you keep.

 

[ElliotG]

Yup they for sure are! I was reading into their breeding last night. They mate based off lunar cycles, then release the eggs into the ocean, then they need to be able to crawl out (before they drown) and bury in 2 feet of wet sand with lots of micro feeders. I remember fiddler crabs being similar as I was looking into it for possibly keeping cuttlefish(and they need loads of food lol). Seems to be *possible, but incredibly difficult and involved. Would take a whole system designed for breeding them. Maybe worthwhile though?!

Yes, dale is the man for that! Look him up on FB. Has incredible enclosures too.

I’ll have to make a Facebook and give him a look. Finally a reason to make one lol! I e been seeing some chicken coops and I’ve been think about maybe being able to turn that into an enclosure. We’ll see. I saw some people even say bird cages too.

You could possibly keep the crabs in a big tub? Like a 2 x 4 Tupperware or even bigger. Seems like you’d need a lot of space to keep them? I’ve seen some crabs at my local pet store. They just kept them on sand in a 20 gal. Bandit crabs I think? Cant exactly remember.

 

[ElliotG]

I personally think it depends on the animal.

Obviously I am ok with crabs since I have them. They are massively prolific breeders since only a tiny percentage live to adulthood-they are the food source for countless animals and that is their primary niche (along with scavenging). A wild crab lives in fear 24/7 and just tries to survive long enough to breed. Whereas in captivity, while many are ill-treated, there are those such as mine which live long lives without fear in an environment very close to ideal.

On the other hand, I am old enough to remember quarantine stations and imported parrots. This was an absolute travesty, adult birds trapped, packed by the hundreds in cages with the ones on the bottom suffocating. These are extremely intelligent animals (sorry, hermies..) These animals have only one to three offspring usually, so the trapping had a real impact on their wild populations, and I think each and every one suffered for the rest of its life. In some cases that was not very long as some never could cope with being caged and lived in a constant state of immunosuppression.

But of course we did have to bring in adults to be able to establish the stable populations of captive bred parrots that we are now fortunate enough to have.

And to those who say even captive parrots/frogs/lizards etc. should not be kept, I always point out that a wild animal faces these things on a daily basis:

Constant fear of predation
Starvation, dehydration or inadequate nutrition including die-offs because of this
Pervasive Internal and external parasites
Exposure to severe weather conditions

It is a very good question, and I am not sure there is an answer, except to support captive breeding when and wherever that is possible, and when it is not, provide the very best conditions for the animals you keep.

Agree with that last part. If you’re desperate to keep a WC animal. Give it the best conditions.

 

[jamest0o0]

I personally think it depends on the animal.

Obviously I am ok with crabs since I have them. They are massively prolific breeders since only a tiny percentage live to adulthood-they are the food source for countless animals and that is their primary niche (along with scavenging). A wild crab lives in fear 24/7 and just tries to survive long enough to breed. Whereas in captivity, while many are ill-treated, there are those such as mine which live long lives without fear in an environment very close to ideal.

On the other hand, I am old enough to remember quarantine stations and imported parrots. This was an absolute travesty, adult birds trapped, packed by the hundreds in cages with the ones on the bottom suffocating. These are extremely intelligent animals (sorry, hermies..) These animals have only one to three offspring usually, so the trapping had a real impact on their wild populations, and I think each and every one suffered for the rest of its life. In some cases that was not very long as some never could cope with being caged and lived in a constant state of immunosuppression.

But of course we did have to bring in adults to be able to establish the stable populations of captive bred parrots that we are now fortunate enough to have.

And to those who say even captive parrots/frogs/lizards etc. should not be kept, I always point out that a wild animal faces these things on a daily basis:

Constant fear of predation
Starvation, dehydration or inadequate nutrition including die-offs because of this
Pervasive Internal and external parasites
Exposure to severe weather conditions

It is a very good question, and I am not sure there is an answer, except to support captive breeding when and wherever that is possible, and when it is not, provide the very best conditions for the animals you keep.

I was hoping you'd post about this actually lol. Do you have any experience with the patriot crabs? I need to dig some more on their status as far as being threatened goes. My concern isn't that the crab wouldn't have a nice life, I'd for sure go all out. I just don't want to be part of a pet trade if the collection is hurting their numbers in the wild. It would be really cool to give a shot at breeding though. I do think the wild is a rough place for them and can probably live pretty happily in captivity. They're just such a unique case because of how difficult and unique the breeding would be.

 

[jamest0o0]

I’ll have to make a Facebook and give him a look. Finally a reason to make one lol! I e been seeing some chicken coops and I’ve been think about maybe being able to turn that into an enclosure. We’ll see. I saw some people even say bird cages too.

You could possibly keep the crabs in a big tub? Like a 2 x 4 Tupperware or even bigger. Seems like you’d need a lot of space to keep them? I’ve seen some crabs at my local pet store. They just kept them on sand in a 20 gal. Bandit crabs I think? Cant exactly remember.

Lol I'm with you, I deleted my FB years ago, but I do miss out on some of the good things. What state are you in? For my parson's, I made a massive 8ftx 10ft pvc enclosure outside.

I have a pretty good basic idea of how to keep them. They usually live near the mangroves on brackish rivers. Would probably try to recreate that. Seeing mixed answers on whether they need saltwater or not.

 

[ElliotG]

Lol I'm with you, I deleted my FB years ago, but I do miss out on some of the good things. What state are you in? For my parson's, I made a massive 8ftx 10ft pvc enclosure outside.

I have a pretty good basic idea of how to keep them. They usually live near the mangroves on brackish rivers. Would probably try to recreate that. Seeing mixed answers on whether they need saltwater or not.

I live in Idaho so it can get super cold here. Wish I could have outdoor enclosures for my chams all year round. I think the most I could do is a 6 x 5. I see frams Chams seems to use two XL repti breezes or that’s what it looks like. I’m not too sure. I don’t know if that would be big enough though.

Your parsons is beautiful though. I really love the yellow lipped ones.

do the crabs deal with fluctuations of salt water levels in the wild? If so it would make sense to fluctuate depending on season or time.

 

[jamest0o0]

I live in Idaho so it can get super cold here. Wish I could have outdoor enclosures for my chams all year round. I think the most I could do is a 6 x 5. I see frams Chams seems to use two XL repti breezes or that’s what it looks like. I’m not too sure. I don’t know if that would be big enough though.

Your parsons is beautiful though. I really love the yellow lipped ones.

do the crabs deal with fluctuations of salt water levels in the wild? If so it would make sense to fluctuate depending on season or time.

Hmmm you could maybe connect 3 reptibreeze? Lol. It gets cold here too, but my Parsons just lives on a free range all winter here.

I believe the eggs/larvae might need changes in the salinity.

 

[ElliotG]

Hmmm you could maybe connect 3 reptibreeze? Lol. It gets cold here too, but my Parsons just lives on a free range all winter here.

I believe the eggs/larvae might need changes in the salinity.

We get into the negatives at times, I don’t think my chams could handle that lol! It would probably be cheaper to make my own enclosure than buy 3 XL.

this is what I’m talking about.

 

[jamest0o0]

We get into the negatives at times, I don’t think my chams could handle that lol! It would probably be cheaper to make my own enclosure than buy 3 XL.
View attachment 307192
this is what I’m talking about.

Lol agreed. And yeah we get negatives too, I'm in PA. Only have my guy out a few months out of the year

 

[Lindasjackson]

My thoughts on keeping WC animals is this, if they’re in the wild leave them there. If someone has brought them into captivity then if you want to keep one then give it the best life possible. If the species is threatened then there needs to be a captive breeding program to protect it.

 

[ElliotG]

Lol agreed. And yeah we get negatives too, I'm in PA. Only have my guy out a few months out of the year

Only if we lived in Florida ),:

 

[jamest0o0]

My thoughts on keeping WC animals is this, if they’re in the wild leave them there. If someone has brought them into captivity then if you want to keep one then give it the best life possible. If the species is threatened then there needs to be a captive breeding program to protect it.

Yeah that's what I'm kind of getting at, if it's WC there should be an attempt to breed the animal. But then there are things like crabs which are super difficult to breed. On the other side of it though, if they are going to be kept by people, maybe some people going all out on their set ups to show the responsible way of keeping them would be beneficial... so future hobbyists would give them better homes. If they are threatened in the wild, they certainly should be avoided short of serious breeding efforts.

 

[ElliotG]

Problem is a lot of people don’t realize their pet is WC. I think if a lot more people were informed they would think twice.

 

[salty dog]

I think those land crabs are near impossible to breed c.b. they spend so much of their life underwater... I think the answer to your question is a personal prefrance.....I'd just research about the well beiing of the natural population

 

[jamest0o0]

I think those land crabs are near impossible to breed c.b. they spend so much of their life underwater... I think the answer to your question is a personal prefrance.....I'd just research about the well beiing of the natural population

Yeah I'm going to look into it for sure. And you're probably not wrong, if it's possible to breed them, it'll be very involved. I believe people have bred fiddler crabs, so maybe take some notes from that. I think I read it's around 2 months from egg to tiny crab that crawls out of the water.