Is it good to have substrate

jamest0o0

Chameleon Enthusiast
I haven't ignored anything, and you mischaracterize me as taking a side in this.

Someone? What better source with expertise to quote than the Guru of bioactive enclosures?

According to his website, he's 33 now, so that's 20 years of practical experience.

Many of the people on google do have experience, and wish to pass it along just as you do.

I don't have to jump out of an airplane, hike the Grand Canyon, or go over a waterfall in a kayak to know those are things I don't want—and am woefully not equipped—to do (though I wish I had kiked the Canyon in my younger days). And I don't have to try to keep a bioactive enclosure to know it doesn't interest me and I would muck it up to the detriment of its occupant.

Speaking to the reality of the facts, bioactive enclosure failures are generally due to something not being done correctly, just as with chameleon husbandry.

I said:

What's wrong with that? Some people shouldn't be cops, some people shouldn't be airline pilots, some people shouldn't keep chameleons, and some people shouldn't have bioactive enclosures.

I'm not shifting anything; I'm trying to acknowledge the realities (e.g. septic systems are ecosystems). Realities aren't pro or con; they are what they are. You have problems with BS; so do I (and how do I say I wasn't really paying attention to the dog💩 in the forest stuff without pissing somebody off? 🤷‍♂️)

It kinda sounds like you disagree and just want people to listen to your side of things.

It's been my experience that when there are two diametrically opposing sides to an issue, the truth lies somewhere in the middle. That's why I encourage people to examine both sides and decide for themselves.

I never said it wasn't an ecosystem, but it is not the same kind of ecosystem. You can tell by the smell 😉

I do agree, with coccidia, they could reinfect! Coccidia is pretty rare if you get feeders from a responsible source though. In all of my animals, I've never dealt with it.

I only want people to agree with the fact that having a septic tank and a forest floor are fairly different things by common sense. The dude called us out, I'm just defending my stance.

I'm 29, have had reptiles and bugs since I was about 5... that experience doesn't mean much. There are people with 2 years of experience that probably know more than me, and there are people with 50 who know less. People like to use years as some bragging right, but it's the quality not quantity.
 
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TayloredExotics

Established Member
I do agree with being harder to move in many cases. That said, it also shows a misunderstanding of bio to say this. Like I said before, a bio substrate could be an inch. I've done it and could post pictures. Kept everything clean and smelling like a forest. Only difference, plants were still in flower pots.
That's fair, I have a mental bias and always assume bioactive is a deep planted thing. But honestly there are many levels... I'd consider anything with added invertebrates/ microorganisms that manage to reproduce to be bioactive. I personally might find even an inch of soil to be harder to move around than a bare cage, but the maintenance costs might offset that. Depends a lot on the individual situation
 

jamest0o0

Chameleon Enthusiast
I give people credit where it's due. @Klyde O'Scope and I have a history of going at each other for whatever reason, that said, I also think he brings up good points some times. Articles too, and I can respect that. I don't hold or care to hold grudges much. I just call things how they are and if people hold that against me so be it.
 

Klyde O'Scope

Chameleon Enthusiast
I never said it wasn't an ecosystem, but it is not the same kind of ecosystem. You can tell by the smell 😉
That was in reference o a brief exchange with Rhea’s mum Sorry for the confusion.

I do agree, with coccidia, they could reinfect! Coccidia is pretty rare if you get feeders from a responsible source though. In all of my animals, I've never dealt with it.
AFAIK, it generally comes in with the animal (e.g. your cham already had it when you got him/her) as it's passed on thru feces. I have dealt with it, and it's a B—.

I'm 29, have had reptiles and bugs since I was about 5... that experience doesn't mean much. There are people with 2 years of experience that probably know more than me, and there are people with 50 who know less. People like to use years as some bragging right, but it's the quality not quantity.
I'm saving this for the next time you come after me. 😁
 

jamest0o0

Chameleon Enthusiast
That was in reference o a brief exchange with Rhea’s mum Sorry for the confusion.


AFAIK, it generally comes in with the animal (e.g. your cham already had it when you got him/her) as it's passed on thru feces. I have dealt with it, and it's a B—.


I'm saving this for the next time you come after me. 😁

Fair enough, you at least need some experience though(jk)! But seriously, I'll call it a truce with you and everyone else. Happy to discuss, but don't want to fight about anything. It gets old, I had my daily dose of frustrated messaging heh. I'm a sleep deprived parent of two toddlers, sometimes my temper is short....
 

snitz427

Chameleon Enthusiast
I haven't ignored anything, and you mischaracterize me as taking a side in this.

Someone? What better source with expertise to quote than the Guru of bioactive enclosures?

According to his website, he's 33 now, so that's 20 years of practical experience.

Many of the people on google do have experience, and wish to pass it along just as you do.

I don't have to jump out of an airplane, hike the Grand Canyon, or go over a waterfall in a kayak to know those are things I don't want—and am woefully not equipped—to do (though I wish I had hiked the Canyon in my younger days). And I don't have to try to keep a bioactive enclosure to know it doesn't interest me and I would muck it up to the detriment of its occupant.

Speaking to the reality of the facts, bioactive enclosure failures are generally due to something not being done correctly, just as with chameleon husbandry.

I said:

What's wrong with that? Some people shouldn't be cops, some people shouldn't be airline pilots, some people shouldn't keep chameleons, and some people shouldn't have bioactive enclosures.

I'm not shifting anything; I'm trying to acknowledge the realities (e.g. septic systems are ecosystems). Realities aren't pro or con; they are what they are. You have problems with BS; so do I (and how do I say I wasn't really paying attention to the dog💩 in the forest stuff without pissing somebody off? 🤷‍♂️)

It kinda sounds like you disagree and just want people to listen to your side of things.

It's been my experience that when there are two diametrically opposing sides to an issue, the truth lies somewhere in the middle. That's why I encourage people to examine both sides and decide for themselves.



Let me just say - the bio dude is NOT an expert as he may claim to be. He went on the frog forums asking for advice, more or less took the soil mix recipes the frog guys shared with him, and slapped a label on it. I bought his soils out of shear laziness, at a premium, and they are mostly just peat and regularly hardware store chipped bark. I ended up with artillery fungus in half my cages from it (not that they could foresee that, but that's what you get with Home Depot bark). He has a picture somewhere along the lines of him buying the materials AT home depot. His soil that "doesn't need a drainage layer" also turned to a muddy mess. I learned that lesson the hard, expensive way, and will make my own soils from here out. I've learned a lot since the early days, myself.

His advice that the chameleon bio active kits only require a felt plant bag and no drainage is ludicrous. For starters - those bags are designed for plants that need good drainage (!!!!) and excellent air flow. They are literally designed to hold moisture in, while quickly draining the excess out of the bag. And see above re my mudpit from using mostly peat. As someone who owns and propagates hundreds of aroids at the moment, I've learned a lot about soil, microbes, etc... and it seeems he might still have a bit to learn before calling himself an expert.
 
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jamest0o0

Chameleon Enthusiast
Let me just say - the bio dude is NOT an expert as he may claim to be. He went on the frog forums asking for advice, more or less took the soil mix recipes the frog guys shared with him, and slapped a label on it. I bought his soils out of shear laziness, at a premium, and they are mostly just peat and regularly hardware store chipped bark. I ended up with artillery fungus in half my cages from it (not that they could foresee that, but that's what you get with Home Depot bark). He has a picture somewhere along the lines of him buying the materials AT home depot. His soil that "doesn't need a drainage layer" also turned to a muddy mess. I learned that lesson the hard, expensive way, and will make my own soils from here out. I've learned a lot since the early days, myself.

His advice that the chameleon bio active kits only require a felt plant bag and no drainage is ludicrous. See above re my mudpit.

Didn't even realize it was biodude... oh god that guy lol. I used to defend him back in the day too. He's more or less a con artist from everything I've heard from the frog and bioactive communities.
 

Klyde O'Scope

Chameleon Enthusiast
Let me just say - the bio dude is NOT an expert as he may claim to be. He went on the frog forums asking for advice, more or less took the soil mix recipes the frog guys shared with him, and slapped a label on it. I bought his soils out of shear laziness, at a premium, and they are mostly just peat and regularly hardware store chipped bark. I ended up with artillery fungus in half my cages from it (not that they could foresee that, but that's what you get with Home Depot bark). He has a picture somewhere along the lines of him buying the materials AT home depot. His soil that "doesn't need a drainage layer" also turned to a muddy mess. I learned that lesson the hard, expensive way, and will make my own soils from here out. I've learned a lot since the early days, myself.

His advice that the chameleon bio active kits only require a felt plant bag and no drainage is ludicrous. For starters - those bags are designed for plants that need good drainage (!!!!) and excellent air flow. They are literally designed to hold moisture in, while quickly draining the excess out of the bag. And see above re my mudpit from using mostly peat. As someone who owns and propagates hundreds of aroids at the moment, I've learned a lot about soil, microbes, etc... and it seeems he might still have a bit to learn before calling himself an expert.
Thanks. I'll file that away. (not being facetious)
 

Livingstons Lizards

Established Member
I think an important question for OP is, what species are you looking to keep, are you using glass or screen, and what are the environmental factors in the room its going in. All tank options, glass, screen or hybrid along with bio active or bare bottom can work, if used correctly and in the correct environment.
 

snitz427

Chameleon Enthusiast
Let me just say - the bio dude is NOT an expert as he may claim to be. He went on the frog forums asking for advice, more or less took the soil mix recipes the frog guys shared with him, and slapped a label on it. I bought his soils out of shear laziness, at a premium, and they are mostly just peat and regularly hardware store chipped bark. I ended up with artillery fungus in half my cages from it (not that they could foresee that, but that's what you get with Home Depot bark). He has a picture somewhere along the lines of him buying the materials AT home depot. His soil that "doesn't need a drainage layer" also turned to a muddy mess. I learned that lesson the hard, expensive way, and will make my own soils from here out. I've learned a lot since the early days, myself.

His advice that the chameleon bio active kits only require a felt plant bag and no drainage is ludicrous. For starters - those bags are designed for plants that need good drainage (!!!!) and excellent air flow. They are literally designed to hold moisture in, while quickly draining the excess out of the bag. And see above re my mudpit from using mostly peat. As someone who owns and propagates hundreds of aroids at the moment, I've learned a lot about soil, microbes, etc... and it seeems he might still have a bit to learn before calling himself an expert.

oh. And I am 99.99999% sure that the bio shot that he sells is just 2 tablespoons of Jobes organic fertilizer.
 

GrayMadder

Chameleon Enthusiast
Let me just say - the bio dude is NOT an expert as he may claim to be. He went on the frog forums asking for advice, more or less took the soil mix recipes the frog guys shared with him, and slapped a label on it. I bought his soils out of shear laziness, at a premium, and they are mostly just peat and regularly hardware store chipped bark. I ended up with artillery fungus in half my cages from it (not that they could foresee that, but that's what you get with Home Depot bark). He has a picture somewhere along the lines of him buying the materials AT home depot. His soil that "doesn't need a drainage layer" also turned to a muddy mess. I learned that lesson the hard, expensive way, and will make my own soils from here out. I've learned a lot since the early days, myself.

His advice that the chameleon bio active kits only require a felt plant bag and no drainage is ludicrous. For starters - those bags are designed for plants that need good drainage (!!!!) and excellent air flow. They are literally designed to hold moisture in, while quickly draining the excess out of the bag. And see above re my mudpit from using mostly peat. As someone who owns and propagates hundreds of aroids at the moment, I've learned a lot about soil, microbes, etc... and it seeems he might still have a bit to learn before calling himself an expert.
I literally learned the hard way from this too. Before I got my cham I ran across him and set up a test enclosure to see how suitable it was.... and it was HORIBBLE. The bag was gross, the whole drainage thing... yea that was a lie the water seeped out and turned everything gross, the soil was muddy, I was so disappointed. Lmao. Thank God I didn't trust this and bring my cham home at the same time. LOL!!
 

snitz427

Chameleon Enthusiast
@Andrew1283

Two words: dart frogs.

Where are all the dart frogs with bacterial and fungal infections?

frogs absorb stuff through their skin and are super sensitive to their environment. And yet dart frogs kept in a bio active “septic tanks” seem to thrive.

oooo and in comes @Lennoncham with the KO ! I didn’t think of that example - and I have dart frogs! It is true.
 
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