Is it good to have substrate

[snitz427]

Bioactive or not can be (not is) a Con-Sub. Personally, I'm on the fence; I believe they're fine for some reptiles (and keepers) IF (big "if") well-designed, well set up, and well-maintained. For others (like me) they're a potential catastrophe. That's just me acknowledging my own limitations.

I think the biggest issue I have is when some say they require little/no maintenance.
Bioactive Vivarium Maintenance 101 — Yes, They Do Require Maintenance!

My bearded dragon has a rough-texture ceramic tile substrate that is both easy to clean/sanitize with a wipe, spritz, and another wipe—and running around on the rough textures keep his nails short & maintained.

My chameleon has a screen/egg crate substrate that catches solids, but lets liquids through to the drain pan below. Weekly pickup of his solids and a spritz keep his enclosure clean & sanitized.

OTOH, my Missus is in the process of getting a tortoise, and due to their care requirements, I don't see any alternatives to a bioactive enclosure.

The only real maintenance I have with my bio active enclosures is ensuring I empty the bucket before it overflows, trimming any plants that might become overgrown, and monitoring for plant pests (which can be naturally controlled, but still a huge pain). Maybe every so often I add some leaf litter if it gets depleted… But that might be twice a year. I consider that very low maintenance.

 

[Rhea’s mum]

Umm... a properly designed & functioning septic system IS an ecosystem.

https://www.motherearthnews.com/nature-and-environment/septic-system-basics-zmaz02onzgoe

I have no experience or knowledge of septic tanks or how they work so I appreciate the info.

 

[Andrew1283]

Nope no troll here, just an enthusiast posting questions and opinions to a group of other enthusiasts, the majority of whom likely don’t have an advanced degree in biology. I don’t know if you all pick up after your dogs but I don’t personally leave that up to Mother Nature and I won’t do that for my chameleon either. They would even eventually step in it and get sick and my neighbors wouldn’t appreciate the smell!

 

[snitz427]

Nope no troll here, just an enthusiast posting questions and opinions to a group of other enthusiasts, the majority of whom likely don’t have an advanced degree in biology. I don’t know if you all pick up after your dogs but I don’t personally leave that up to Mother Nature and I won’t do that for my chameleon either. They would even eventually step in it and get sick and my neighbors wouldn’t appreciate the smell!

That must be why the woods are so beautiful. Someone spends a lot of time going around picking up all the poop from all the forest creatures (a truly thankless job).

 

[jamest0o0]

@Klyde O'Scope you can't speak too much on something's maintenance while having no experience with it other than googling something, someone wrote up. I have more experience than many keepers with chams on bio, as does snitz, so why take some website's info, but ignore ours? Simply because this is a discussion and they have a link? I can tell you for a fact, when it comes to maintenance, bio is MUCH easier. Ever wonder why people(outside of breeders monitoring fecals) with large collections often go with biactive substrate. Ever wonder why most Europeans do?

And I'm honestly not trying to be rude with you like I have in the past, I'm just speaking to the reality of it.

Also let's not shift this to a bio vs barebottom, that's old and we all have our preferences, that's fine with me! My problem is with the BS being put up someone who has no idea what they're talking about(probably a troll).

Still have yet to see anyone who's had a problem with bio. I know with other reptiles, some believe all can be bio, while some think it's not a good idea for everything. I have a feeling I could make bio work with anything, but I won't say ALL or that I'm positive because I don't have experience with every reptile, so there I could agree with you. That's a whole other discussion though.

 

[Klyde O'Scope]

The only real maintenance I have with my bio active enclosures is ensuring I empty the bucket before it overflows, trimming any plants that might become overgrown, and monitoring for plant pests (which can be naturally controlled, but still a huge pain). Maybe every so often I add some leaf litter if it gets depleted… But that might be twice a year. I consider that very low maintenance.

Fair enough.

From the cited article:

Restock your enclosure with biodegradables every 6 months. Since you’re using larger plants (ex: trees and shrubs) for a canopy layer bioactive, replacing lost nutrients in the soil is essential for the long-term health of your plants.

Other regular maintenance tasks for canopy layer bioactives:

• ...
• ...
• Replenishing isopods and springtail populations

...
Aside from replenishing the biodegradables (tree bark, dry leaves, etc.) in your enclosure on a regular basis, it’s also important to “fertilize” your bioactive vivarium to keep it balanced and healthy over the long-term.
...
Just because bioactive terrariums require more maintenance that you may have originally thought does not mean that you have been misled and that a bioactive reptile enclosure is not for you.

I quoted the above because they are things I don't have to do in either of my current enclosures.

Those things (and more) will have to be done for the tortoise.

Again, I'm not against bioactive when done correctly (and often, "correctly" can be the problem, just like it is with husbandry issues.)

There's undoubtedly bad or mis-information on both sides, and more than enough opinions to go around. I just think it's prudent for people considering it to get as much information as they can, consider all sides, and make their decisions informed ones. From personal experience, I think this should also include being aware of one's own limitations and shortcomings because it's more than just houseplants in a box—there's a living animal in there depending on us doing everything reasonably correctly for them to thrive.

 

[Andrew1283]

When I joined this site I was told right off the bat by several reputable members that I should not use substrate. I guess I’m now dealing with the opposite end of the spectrum who say substrate is good when it’s bio active. It’s OK to ask questions and no asking questions does not make someone a troll. It’s just having intelligent conversation about why you believe what you do. I won’t post again on this thread because it’s clear people are offended by my questions. Have a great day everyone.

 

[Klyde O'Scope]

I have no experience or knowledge of septic tanks or how they work so I appreciate the info.

That's OK. I learned it in college along with the difference between planting and burying.

 

[TayloredExotics]

This is going to be a couple of separate posts, so I don't lose my brain in among all these words

And yes we should all beware of what information we receive. I would like to know who among those making the argument for a bio active system is a veterinarian or microbiologist or what veterinarian or microbiologist said it was a safe and a good alternative to a bare bottom.

Alrighty, I'm late to the party! Not quite what you asked for, but I have degrees in wildlife ecology and applied ecology biotechnology, and I've worked in a cell lab for the last two years; this doesn't make me an expert, but maybe I can explain a little of what's going on.

When I joined this site I was told right off the bat by several reputable members that I should not use substrate. I guess I’m now dealing with the opposite end of the spectrum who say substrate is good when it’s bio active.

Likely, you were told 'No substrate!' because it's the simplest and easiest to do. A newer owner is likely already learning a lot; it's easier to plan on just wiping up a poop and changing paper towels daily than learning about fungal blooms, nutrient cycling, microinvertebrate interactions, anaerobic vs aerobic bacterial outputs... So they may have simply wanted to give you good advice to keep your chameleon well with a sanitary habitat without getting overwhelmed

 

[snitz427]

When I joined this site I was told right off the bat by several reputable members that I should not use substrate. I guess I’m now dealing with the opposite end of the spectrum who say substrate is good when it’s bio active. It’s OK to ask questions and no asking questions does not make someone a troll. It’s just having intelligent conversation about why you believe what you do. I won’t post again on this thread because it’s clear people are offended by my questions. Have a great day everyone.

It is fine to choose either set up, so long as you do either right. Having a bare bottom tank with "carpet" or leaving dirty wet paper towels in the bottom for weeks, is not sanitary, so be sure to keep it clean. Most people who choose not to go bioactive are usually either

• misinformed by other members (a whole other post about brand new keepers advising other new keepers on what to do), or
• want to go bio, but are intimidated by the idea of setup, or not quite ready for the time investment of setting up drainage, or
• have no idea bio is even an option, or
• just don't mind the paper towel routine.

Any of the above are 100% ok, but spewing or regurgitating inaccurate information, with no first hand experience or thorough research, is only going to confuse or misdirect other new keepers - just as the person who told you bioactive was bad apparently did.

 

[TayloredExotics]

Personally I think the bio active enclosures are gross. I get it, they work like a septic system and beneficial bacteria (along with actual bugs) eventually break down fecal matter so you don’t have to clean up daily.

In a perfect world, yeah, every bioactive habitat would work like this. Also note that a properly functioning septic system shouldn't smell, or not much; you're probably thinking of a sewer main break, which is just raw sewage being brought to a treatment plant. Which is without question gross

I set up my first (newbie) enclosure with ground up coconut husk substrate for a natural look and believed that was OK. I thought..this will help retain humidity and why can’t a healthy chameleon pass some inadvertently ingested finely ground soil just as they would in the wild?

You make some good points about substrate. It does help with humidity, although a mix of Coco fiber and soil woukd be better for retaining water and nutrients, and give the substrate more structure for healthy roots and invertebrates. And a healthy chameleon is able to eat some dirt, though that may indicate deficiency of some nutrients, as has been mentioned. Instead of blocking all access, if I see a chameleon eat dirt, I mix some coco fiber in two bowls; one with calcium and the other with a multivitamin, then leave the bowls in the enclosure. They probably know what they're doing at that point

Additionally I loved the thought of having a chameleon litter box where I could scoop away the poop with the surrounding coconut husk and call it a day. But this isn’t the wild and yes that dirt may pass through their system but it may have also been in contact with some fecal matter which could make your cham sick. You can never watch them at all times so you don’t know what they do when you’re gone. Bare bottom with items raised a few inches from the surface is the winner.

While it's probably better not to eat feces, your chameleon isn't going to get new diseases from their own poop, assuming it's not super aged and fermented- which is the point of bioactivity.
No matter what, there is a chance for them to interact with their own feces. On paper towel, you have the poop, plus whatever bacteria and microorganisms that are attracted to it, some of which may be disease causing agents. The point of bioactivity is to ensure a population of 'good' microfauna that will break down the waste, and/or consume disease causing agents. So the proportion of 'bad' microorganisms is lower

Trust the advice on this site but sometimes you will get conflicting ideas about what works best. Just use your best practical judgment and research a variety of reputable sources if necessary. Seek advice from your local exotic pet veterinarian too. Everyone has the best intentions for your pet.

True. People are going to offer different advice, and occasionally it will conflict. They're trying their best to help by telling what has worked best for them, but they are not you. You're ultimately responsible for choosing whatever system works best for you and yours, and shouldn't feel bad for choosing one over the other

 

[GrayMadder]

When I joined this site I was told right off the bat by several reputable members that I should not use substrate. I guess I’m now dealing with the opposite end of the spectrum who say substrate is good when it’s bio active. It’s OK to ask questions and no asking questions does not make someone a troll. It’s just having intelligent conversation about why you believe what you do. I won’t post again on this thread because it’s clear people are offended by my questions. Have a great day everyone.

No one is offended. Everyone is just trying to educate one another and swap experiences on a forum... which is the purpose of a forum.

Idk why you keep insisting the only people who know anything need degrees. I currently am working on my PhD, in a different subject from this discussion, but I will tell you the degree means nothing compared to what I've learned from the 10 years experience in my job field. A degree is just a piece of paper. Real life experience is ALSO extremely valuable and equates to degrees in the job field.

 

[TayloredExotics]

I would like to know if anyone has sent a soil sample from a, “healthy” bio active habitat to their veterinarian or a microbiologist for microscopic bacterial analysis to confirm if in fact good (non harmful) bacteria has wiped out (or mitigated to the point of harmlessness) the abundance of harmful bacteria in that soil.

I haven't done this, but it might actually be fun to test! Unfortunately, it's pretty impossible to kill off all bacteria/microorganisms. Even with autoclaving there are occasionally spores/cysts that survive multiple cycles at high temps and high pressures. Sterilizing can be done relatively well in a laboratory setting, but even then things occasionally sneak through. So I'd say the chances of expecting a sterile or even particularly aseptic habitat are pretty low
Anecdotally, when culturing different types of fungi, bacteria were the main culprit for a failed colonization. Rather than try to sterilize everything each time, instead substrate is incubated at high temperatures to encourage thermophilic bacteria to do the work that humans cannot, and eat all the competing bacteria. The theory is that when temps are lowered again, the thermophilic bacteria are less able to compete with the fungi you want colonizing.

As we all know, feces is primarily comprised of bacteria.

This is not quite right. Only about 30% of feces is bacterial remains (https://www.britannica.com/science/feces)

Human septic systems use digestive bacteria to break it down into a somewhat harmless but still disgusting and smelly substance. If you were to stick that substance in an open wound or ingest it I guarantee you’re going to the hospital! That process is done (commercially) with state of the art equipment and by trained professionals. If you have ever opened a septic tank you know it still smells like a load of poop.

Well, I certainly won't advocate poop as a replacement for Neosporin. But the food news is, bioactive does not entail slicing open your pet and sending them to wade through piles upon piles of feces. With bioactivity, there is also a smaller proportion of feces exposed to the animal in relation to other components, like the substrate itself. A functioning habitat will not allow poop to remain for more than a day or three. I assume most people are observing their chameleon regularly enough to notice any open wound as well.

If anyone has send a sample to their vet or a microbiologist please let me know.

Will do!

 

[TayloredExotics]

It is fine to choose either set up, so long as you do either right. Having a bare bottom tank with "carpet" or leaving dirty wet paper towels in the bottom for weeks, is not sanitary, so be sure to keep it clean. Most people who choose not to go bioactive are usually either

• misinformed by other members (a whole other post about brand new keepers advising other new keepers on what to do), or
• want to go bio, but are intimidated by the idea of setup, or not quite ready for the time investment of setting up drainage, or
• have no idea bio is even an option, or
• just don't mind the paper towel routine.

Any of the above are 100% ok, but spewing or regurgitating inaccurate information, with no first hand experience or thorough research, is only going to confuse or misdirect other new keepers - just as the person who told you bioactive was bad apparently did.

In addition to the reasons you listed (and something I forgot to mention as well) is that bioactive have greater startup costs and the possibility for more things to go wrong in the beginning as well. They're also harder to move, if somebody is in school, or renting, or planning a change of scenery soon. So there are situations where not having a bioactive setup is definitely the better option.

Edit: @quattlebaum12194 I hope you're enjoying the show

 

[Klyde O'Scope]

@Klyde O'Scope you can't speak too much on something's maintenance while having no experience with it other than googling something, someone wrote up. I have more experience than many keepers with chams on bio, as does snitz, so why take some website's info, but ignore ours? Simply because this is a discussion and they have a link? I can tell you for a fact, when it comes to maintenance, bio is MUCH easier. Ever wonder why people(outside of breeders monitoring fecals) with large collections often go with biactive substrate. Ever wonder why most Europeans do?

And I'm honestly not trying to be rude with you like I have in the past, I'm just speaking to the reality of it.

Also let's not shift this to a bio vs barebottom, that's old and we all have our preferences, that's fine with me! My problem is with the BS being put up someone who has no idea what they're talking about(probably a troll).

Still have yet to see anyone who's had a problem with bio. I know with other reptiles, some believe all can be bio, while some think it's not a good idea for everything. I have a feeling I could make bio work with anything, but I won't say ALL or that I'm positive because I don't have experience with every reptile, so there I could agree with you. That's a whole other discussion though.

I haven't ignored anything, and you mischaracterize me as taking a side in this.

Someone? What better source with expertise to quote than the Guru of bioactive enclosures?

About the author: Since the age of 13, Josh Halter has had a passion for making his pets’ enclosures emulate their natural habitat as closely as possible.

According to his website, he's 33 now, so that's 20 years of practical experience.

Many of the people on google do have experience, and wish to pass it along just as you do.

I don't have to jump out of an airplane, hike the Grand Canyon, or go over a waterfall in a kayak to know those are things I don't want—and am woefully not equipped—to do (though I wish I had hiked the Canyon in my younger days). And I don't have to try to keep a bioactive enclosure to know it doesn't interest me and I would muck it up to the detriment of its occupant.

Speaking to the reality of the facts, bioactive enclosure failures are generally due to something not being done correctly, just as with chameleon husbandry.

I said:

I believe they're fine for some reptiles (and keepers) IF (big "if") well-designed, well set up, and well-maintained. For others (like me) they're a potential catastrophe. That's just me acknowledging my own limitations.

What's wrong with that? Some people shouldn't be cops, some people shouldn't be airline pilots, some people shouldn't keep chameleons, and some people shouldn't have bioactive enclosures.

I'm not shifting anything; I'm trying to acknowledge the realities (e.g. septic systems are ecosystems). Realities aren't pro or con; they are what they are. You have problems with BS; so do I (and how do I say I wasn't really paying attention to the dog in the forest stuff without pissing somebody off? )

It kinda sounds like you disagree and just want people to listen to your side of things.

It's been my experience that when there are two diametrically opposing sides to an issue, the truth lies somewhere in the middle. That's why I encourage people to examine both sides and decide for themselves.

 

[jamest0o0]

In addition to the reasons you listed (and something I forgot to mention as well) is that bioactive have greater startup costs and the possibility for more things to go wrong in the beginning as well. They're also harder to move, if somebody is in school, or renting, or planning a change of scenery soon. So there are situations where not having a bioactive setup is definitely the better option.

Edit: @quattlebaum12194 I hope you're enjoying the show

I do agree with being harder to move in many cases. That said, it also shows a misunderstanding of bio to say this. Like I said before, a bio substrate could be an inch. I've done it and could post pictures. Kept everything clean and smelling like a forest. Only difference, plants were still in flower pots.

 

[Klyde O'Scope]

In a perfect world, yeah, every bioactive habitat would work like this. Also note that a properly functioning septic system shouldn't smell, or not much; you're probably thinking of a sewer main break, which is just raw sewage being brought to a treatment plant. Which is without question gross

Or a cesspool. I'm not even going to tell the story except that it was personal experience—and gross—too gross..

While it's probably better not to eat feces, your chameleon isn't going to get new diseases from their own poop,

Not new, however they can reinfect themselves, e.g. coccidia.

True. People are going to offer different advice, and occasionally it will conflict. They're trying their best to help by telling what has worked best for them, but they are not you. You're ultimately responsible for choosing whatever system works best for you and yours, and shouldn't feel bad for choosing one over the other

+1.

 

[jamest0o0]

People always put this more complicated, more things could go wrong image of bio out there. I mean sure things could go wrong with anything, but it's really not that complex of a thing. Anyway, how did this conversation take this turn. All I was saying is that it's safe and beneficial in many cases to use a bio substrate. Andrew's original comments were straight up nonsense and that's what I'm going after. I'm not here to argue whether or not bioactive is the best way to go, just speaking of it's perks and safety.

I swear every thread where someone makes a goofy comment, people come in and shut it down, but then a couple want to side or reason with the person. Then some big useless debate is formed. I was waiting for this to happen, it's so predictable lol.

 

[jamest0o0]

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Some of my septic tanks. BTW, if you have a houseplant in your house, it's also a bioactive enclosure... same thing, bacteria, fertilizer, fauna/flora, etc.

Well I guess my pictures won't work, been struggling with that for a while. Trust me, they're beautiful septic tanks!

I'd just like to see people that post at least even experience with the subject too. Have you kept a cham or reptiles on soil? If so, I'd love to hear your thoughts.

 

[Klyde O'Scope]

As we all know, feces is primarily comprised of bacteria.

Huh. And I always thought it was mostly water. I'm not going to quote it, but anyone can find it on Wikipedia.

Human septic systems use digestive bacteria to break it down into a somewhat harmless but still disgusting and smelly substance. If you were to stick that substance in an open wound or ingest it I guarantee you’re going to the hospital!

Water coming from the end of a properly balanced septic system should have very little—if any—odor. That's one way to tell if there's a problem; if there's an odor coming from the area of the leach field, there's something wrong (unbalanced) with the system.

That process is done (commercially) with state of the art equipment and by trained professionals.

BWAHAHAHAHA!! Oops—sorry. I'm sure that's true most places. Just didn't jibe with personal experience.