Investigation In Progress

[Daesie11]

The question then becomes and be honest would you pay $150 more?

I think I would. I ended up paying about $130 for my initial vet visit and fecal with my boy anyway. So why not purchase a cham that has already had that done, then it's really just paying an extra $20 for the peace of mind that nothing is wrong. When doing it yourself you're rolling the dice that something may come back positive in the test.

 

[cyberlocc]

The question then becomes and be honest would you pay $150 more?

150 more is quite steep. The Chameleons should not have it to begin with.

You are sold a healthy animal, that is the health guarantee, a Chameleon loaded with Coccidia is not a healthy animal.

The snake guys, very very much do not tolerate this. Go read FBI, you send out an infected snake your days breeding are done, no one will buy from you. Not saying we should be like that, just saying no one should have to pay more for a healthy animal.

So I guess I'm confused to what your asking. Judging by the post above.

Are we talking a Clean fecal price raise? Add 25-50 tops. Or are we talking full on Vet checkout with a Vet Report on the animal before shipping. That would be worth 150.

Fecals don't cost 150. And it's not our job to clean your collection. That's your problem, that's your business expense. We have a Retail business with a Physical location. I am not some consumer that will by into the bullcrap. Businesses have Profits and Losses and you can write losses off. That's the cost of doing business, if you can't do that, then don't try to have a business.

We are also, Landlords, of 35 tenants, so we get scumbags and have to take losses quite often. Again, that's the price of doing business, it happens, you deal with it. Welcome to being an Entrepreneur, can't take the heat get out of the Fire.

It goes back to what I said in the first post. This industry and community is AMAZING! To deal with they are so kind, there is such little negativity directed at businesses, and breeders. So much compassion for them, and friendship. They are praised for things they should be doing and not knocked for things they should be.

This community's Expectations from the businesses with in, are extremely low, and that's very heartwarming. To take advantage of that, is just wrong.

 

[JacksJill]

150 more is quite steep. The Chameleons should not have it to begin with.

You are sold a healthy animal, that is the health guarantee, a Chameleon loaded with Coccidia is not a healthy animal.

The snake guys, very very much do not tolerate this. Go read FBI, you send out an infected snake your days breeding are done, no one will buy from you. Not saying we should be like that, just saying no one should have to pay more for a healthy animal.

I had to fight my vet to get treatment for my animals. He consulted 2 board certified reptile experts who agreed coccidia only needs to be treated if there are symptoms or a heavy infestation. As a breeder I don't agree but it is more of a matter of reputation than a necessity I can prove.
Snakes are not regularly imported and have been in captivity for more generations with the morphs etc. I'm sure you far more about their culture that I do. I haven't kept snakes in decades. I'm sure the treatment is already a part of the price. This is a new thing in chameleons.
I will have to pay out of pocket for the exam and any treatment. If I don't make my money back there is no reason to breed or sell at all.
Keep in mind I'm just tossing out ideas for others. I treat my adults prior to breeding. The problem is for people who buy or trade pregnant imported females. They are like already infected and the eggs or babies will be as well.

I think I would. I ended up paying about $130 for my initial vet visit and fecal with my boy anyway. So why not purchase a cham that has already had that done, then it's really just paying an extra $20 for the peace of mind that nothing is wrong. When doing it yourself you're rolling the dice that something may come back positive in the test.

I think for educated consumers like yourself that is a possibility.
As an example my chameleons imported wild caught sell for ~150$ each. Captive bred sell for 175$ not including shipping. It would almost double the price. I would do do my own fecals and try to get a group rate for treatment as needed and then you are suggesting get an independent exam for certification. Interesting. It's the vets certification that is going to be a set price.

 

[cyberlocc]

I had to fight my vet to get treatment for my animals. He consulted 2 board certified reptile experts who agreed coccidia only needs to be treated if there are symptoms or a heavy infestation. As a breeder I don't agree but it is more of a matter of reputation than a necessity I can prove.
Snakes are not regularly imported and have been in captivity for more generations with the morphs etc. I'm sure you far more about their culture that I do. I haven't kept snakes in decades. I'm sure the treatment is already a part of the price. This is a new thing in chameleons.
I will have to pay out of pocket for the exam and any treatment. If I don't make my money back there is no reason to breed or sell at all.
Keep in mind I'm just tossing out ideas for others. I treat my adults prior to breeding. The problem is for people who buy or trade pregnant imported females. They are like already infected and the eggs or babies will be as well.



I think for educated consumers like yourself that is a possibility.
As an example my chameleons imported wild caught sell for ~150$ each. Captive bred sell for 175$ not including shipping. It would almost double the price. I would do do my own fecals and try to get a group rate for treatment as needed and then you are suggesting get an independent exam for certification. Interesting. It's the vets certification that is going to be a set price.

Okay, well let's clear the air on that one. You are bringing to the table several different situations.

I will agree that Vets seem to have mixed feelings on the Coccidia, I wouldn't sell a Cham with it myself.

However you shouldn't have to treat every baby. You should only have to keep your collection clean, and as stated Microscope your own Fecals. Treatment on a massive scale, should never happen with proper Quarantining of animals. If you let it spread to your entire collection, that's YOUR Fault, and that's your problem to deal with. Business take losses, that's a fact of being in business if you can't accept that, then you should not be in a Business.


Now that doesn't apply to your further example of a WC mother with infected eggs. That is a completely different situation. If an animal comes in, and is gravid with infected babies, those babies can be sold and shipped infected.

That's okay, that's Okay because those animals are NOT Captive Bred, they are Captive Hatched, are no different from WCs and should be treated as such. If I buy a WC animal, I know it's going to have problems, I have factored that into my descion to purchase it. That does not apply to CB animals. Where prices are higher and so are standards.

The same applies to lower priced breeders, I am more likely to overlook a 200 dollar Chameleon, with a newer breeder or less premium blood lines, than someone charging Kammer prices. If the Cham is WC price, then WC issues should be expected.

If your panther is listed for 350+ you damn well better be giving me a Perfect Healthy Animal.


When Underground Reptiles is attacked (and it is alot) I defend them. Only when the case of Attack is a WC. If you buy a WC and it dies, and it later from parastites, that's not their fault. That's the nature of WC animals, and you should have known that going in. (They should probably add disclaimers) same goes for CH.

However once again CB animals, are a completely different thing. Your CB animals should not have Parasites, your WCs should have been QTed and Treated long before having babies.

Also yes there is lots of Snakes imported, and parasites have wiped out entire collections.

 

[krikinit]

Okay, well let's clear the air on that one. You are bringing to the table several different situations.

I will agree that Vets seem to have mixed feelings on the Coccidia, I wouldn't sell a Cham with it myself.

However you shouldn't have to treat every baby. You should only have to keep your collection clean, and as stated Microscope your own Fecals. Treatment on a massive scale, should never happen with proper Quarantining of animals. If you let it spread to your entire collection, that's YOUR Fault, and that's your problem to deal with. Business take losses, that's a fact of being in business if you can't accept that, then you should not be in a Business.


Now that doesn't apply to your further example of a WC mother with infected eggs. That is a completely different situation. If an animal comes in, and is gravid with infected babies, those babies can be sold and shipped infected.

That's okay, that's Okay because those animals are NOT Captive Bred, they are Captive Hatched, are no different from WCs and should be treated as such. If I buy a WC animal, I know it's going to have problems, I have factored that into my descion to purchase it. That does not apply to CB animals. Where prices are higher and so are standards.

The same applies to lower priced breeders, I am more likely to overlook a 200 dollar Chameleon, with a newer breeder or less premium blood lines, than someone charging Kammer prices. If the Cham is WC price, then WC issues should be expected.

If your panther is listed for 350+ you damn well better be giving me a Perfect Healthy Animal.

So it ok to pass an infection to a buyer if its WC or WH but CB is unacceptable? Seems a touch hypocritical, animal comes into your care you should treat it, ofcourse this is my humble opinion.

 

[Thatwizard420]

Ok, so, How can someone claim they have a healthy Raptor for sale if they never been tested for anything? Or have they? It's like buying a car, Car works, no mechanical issues. Are we supposed to trust what they say? Or they can "Show me the Carfax".

 

[snitz427]

The question then becomes and be honest would you pay $150 more?

Yes, I think I would. I would think it would be closer to $100 but you have to take time into account (unless your vet does home visits). I think as a breeder, doing your own fecals prior to shipping should be standard practice... I know it isn’t, but I think it would be for me. Even prior to this issue.

 

[cyberlocc]

So it ok to pass an infection to a buyer if its WC or WH but CB is unacceptable? Seems a touch hypocritical, animal comes into your care you should treat it, ofcourse this is my humble opinion.

It's not that as acceptable as much as it is standard. Not just in Chameleons, in all Animals.

Wild Caughts are stressed, Dehydrated, malnourished, and parasite ridden. When they first get to your from an Importer there is more important things to take care of before Parasites. If you tried to treat the day it arrives WC it will likely not survive. And the importers do not possess them long enough to acclimate and treat.

If you are buying a WC that is said to be Acclimated and healthy, that changes things. However most Pet owners should not be buying WC animals. There is no reason to, their is plenty of CB animals to choose from (for most species). The cheaper price of a WC comes with it the stipulation the animal might not make it, and is going to be costly to acclimate.

That's like buying a 1000 dollar car and expecting it to not have new car smell.

Ok, so, How can someone claim they have a healthy Raptor for sale if they never been tested for anything? Or have they? It's like buying a car, Car works, no mechanical issues. Are we supposed to trust what they say? Or they can "Show me the Carfax".

We already said. Front page Dec bumped it. There is a Blog post how to do your own Fecals at Home. It requires a 250 dollar Microscope then it's 5 dollars and like 10 mins per Fecal. There is absolutely no excuse for not doing a fecal on babies.

I said you shouldn't have to treat the babies, because your collection should never have been tainted. If it gets tainted, that doesn't give you the right to charge that to buyers, that's your collection, your problem, Welcome to business stuff happens. The fecal part is easy.

So if a water pipe breaks in my property, do I charge my tenants the 3k water bill? Nope, and the court wouldn't let me if I wanted to. That's my problem.

 

[JacksJill]

So it ok to pass an infection to a buyer if its WC or WH but CB is unacceptable? Seems a touch hypocritical, animal comes into your care you should treat it, ofcourse this is my humble opinion.

My species of chameleon weighs only 30 grams as an adult female at 2 years old. They are impossible to treat when they are smaller than 20 grams.
I am literally going against veterinary advise when I treat them. I think the key is honest communication with your buyers. I have X for sale it is untested at X price. I have Y for sale tested and certified for Y price. Both X and Y have healthy appetites and are active.

 

[cyberlocc]

My species of chameleon weighs only 30 grams as an adult female at 2 years old. They are impossible to treat when they are smaller than 20 grams.
I am literally going against veterinary advise when I treat them. I think the key is honest communication with your buyers. I have X for sale it is untested at X price. I have Y for sale tested and certified for Y price. Both X and Y have healthy appetites and are active.

Right so in that case, it's like I said. Your CHs, go for a lower price, as they are not gaurnteed, to be healthy animals.

However your CB babies should never be exposed, and if they are, that's not the buyers problem to fix, it's yours.

I liked it was either or Jann or Jean put it, they said if you want to breed you best learn to be a Vet. Still have a Vet for the big stuff, but the smaller stuff, Fecals, Panacure, ect, learn that yourself and find a way to get it in bulk.

If you are going to breed, and have lots of WCs, you should be getting those big tubes, a microscope, ect. That's if your trying to be a business about it. You spent how much on DS nursery system and let Chams go out sick when easily preventable. 600 dollars, and that treats 1000s you said. That's what .60cents a Cham?

If your a hobbyist that only wanted to breed the one clucth and raised them in a Exo Terra or 2, that's another story, and I am not giving you 350 for your baby.

 

[JacksJill]

That does come back to a point I meant to make in my original statement. It is probably cheaper not easier to treat parasites at the breeders end than that individually at the buyers end.

 

[JoXie411]

The question then becomes and be honest would you pay $150 more?

Yes I would. I’m currently in the process of buying a new chameleon and I told my breeder I would pay more for a fecal to be done just to give me peace of mind

 

[cyberlocc]

Jacksjill just trying to find a Niche to sell Chams . That's okay, if I ever breed, there will be "Parasite Free" seal on there as well .

I can see it now.

"Cybers, Bio Grown, Parasite Free, Family Raised, Panthers -450 each"

 

[JacksJill]

You know this is going to create problem for backyard breeders who won't be able to afford a microscope and veterinary expenses. They will end up in the category with the chain pet stores.

 

[krikinit]

My 2 cents... there is no way anyone can blame @Matt Vanilla Gorilla. I had a 5k Peregrine die from coccidia 12 days aftet I bought him. Lots of money later still no answer as to where it came from. Or if it was contracted from food i gave or if he was asymptomatic when i got him. There will never be an answer to make everybody happy. Simply put, shit happens. If you buy a critter it falls to the keeper for ALL initial testing and follow up testing. I trap wild hawks for falconry and take them multiple times for health checks along with daily weighing of raptor and its food and then again after it eats. The Devil is in the details. 30 days of records help establish a baseline for averaging. If you do the same from the start with any critter your success rate will jump. This is part of keeping whether its is accepted or deemed necessary in the chameleon world remains to be seen. Point is it always falls on the keeper to take the initial action to get the testing done. @JacksJill I wouldnt pay an extra $150. I would already be taking it for an initial health exam.

 

[cyberlocc]

My 2 cents... there is no way anyone can blame @Matt Vanilla Gorilla. I had a 5k Peregrine die from coccidia 12 days aftet I bought him. Lots of money later still no answer as to where it came from. Or if it was contracted from food i gave or if he was asymptomatic when i got him. There will never be an answer to make everybody happy. Simply put, shit happens. If you buy a critter it falls to the keeper for ALL initial testing and follow up testing. I trap wild hawks for falconry and take them multiple times for health checks along with daily weighing of raptor and its food and then again after it eats. The Devil is in the details. 30 days of records help establish a baseline for averaging. If you do the same from the start with any critter your success rate will jump. This is part of keeping whether its is accepted or deemed necessary in the chameleon world remains to be seen. Point is it always falls on the keeper to take the initial action to get the testing done. @JacksJill I wouldnt pay an extra $150. I would already be taking it for an initial health exam.

She did get the testing done. At the first poop, and it was already too late.

You may not have known with yours, however the Vet told her, that the chameleon had been so infected it had to be infected while in Matt's care.

Coccidia doesn't kill in 5 days or 13, that's a longer term infection. Neither hers nor your animal was infected by you guys.

That's not the keepers problem, that a breeder sent an animal knocking on deaths door, as a healthy CB Animal. Sorry no.

 

[krikinit]

Meet Thomas. Baharis brother and roomate for 5.5 month. Clean fecal and bill of health. So his whole collection is contaminated after i bought mine?

 

[krikinit]

Just saying we are missing facts here.

 

[JoXie411]

Meet Thomas. Baharis brother and roomate for 5.5 month. Clean fecal and bill of health. So his whole collection is contaminated after i bought mine?

Larry and Imelda were roommates when he had coccidia and she didn’t get it so I don’t think this statement is a way to say it didn’t come from him.

 

[GoodKarma19]

Just saying we are missing facts here.

Exactly. We're just talking in circles, and have been for the last 24 hours.

You deal with raptors. Coccidia (and internal parasites in general) are not airborne - they're fecal contact. If you washed your hands between cages and didn't put leftover feeders back in the bins, it's easy enough to contain. I don't doubt that Matt has good hygiene, so it's very likely that an isolated case is just that- isolated. I'd still get my collection checked cause I'm not one to play with fire, but that was never in question.

Also, @Matt Vanilla Gorilla and @Teal Beauty: I'd like to apologize for coming across as a raging (insert derogatory term here). I'm not happy with the way this situation has been handled, and I get very protective. I stand by my words, but I could have used more finesse.