Investigation In Progress

[cyberlocc]

So I bought an AMP with 12 days warranty, on the 15th day, it stopped working. I tried to get a refund at the store, but I couldn’t. Not even an exchange. Did I blame the store? No, it was probably me who messed it up. Did I go back to that store? Yes, store didn’t loose rep just because I bought something from them and stopped working after warranty expired.

I’m not taking sides on this, just gotta throw it out there, don’t fight other people’s battles. Let’s all be adults, let the parties involved come to their resolution. We just judging, name calling, and assuming.
Pen mightier than the sword!!

Why would you buy an Amp with a 12 day warranty?

It probably was you that messed up the Amp. However Becca did not mess up the Cham, a Chameleon doesn't die of a Parasite load it got in 10 days or even 15. The vet already stated this, and everyone here can easily see the information on study's.

Even Dec, who has stayed very non biased, knows and stated the parasites came from the breeder.

As far as the warranty example. The problem, here is there is Warranty Laws, and they are usually about 30 days. You cannot just say "5 day warranty" and expect that in hold up in court.

My ex went through this in college with a dog. A 2500 Yorkie who cost us 1500 more in vet bills 2 weeks later. We got all of our money back. Which we didn't even want, we just wanted a healthy dog, and the judge made them pay the vet fees as well. This was after, they refused to just replace the Dog, which is all we wanted.

They also got in trouble with AKC, or so AKC told my Ex.

This all varies state to state though.

https://aldf.org/article/what-to-do...urchased-became-sick-or-died-soon-afterwards/

There's a diffrence between a person killing the animal due to poor care, or improper setup. And being sold an animal who had a condition that proves fatal a couple weeks later.

BTW, the limit is 15 days federally, so Becca is protected and she would win in court. For my Ex's case it wasnt "sick", it had a Liver Shunt most likely due to being Inbred (Vets words) so that falls under the 60 day.

All these breeders with "5" gaurntees. Would be wise to read the law. You can say your guarantee is whatever you want. Just like people on eBay say no refunds. However in reality the law is not on the same page.


So I looked this up, as it applies to this case.

Here is the State by State laws. https://www.avma.org/Advocacy/StateAndLocal/Pages/pet-lemon-laws.aspx

Matt is in California, and by that, Becca is entilited to cost of the animal + all Vet Fees spent in it's treatment. If she wants to pursue it, she will have to file in Cali, and attend court there. If that's worth the trip, is up to her.

 

[Thatwizard420]

Why would you buy an Amp with a 12 day warranty?

It probably was you that messed up the Amp. However Becca did not mess up the Cham, a Chameleon doesn't die of a Parasite load it got in 10 days or even 15. The vet already stated this, and everyone here can easily see the information on study's.

Even Dec, who has stayed very non biased, knows and stated the parasites came from the breeder.

As far as the warranty example. The problem, here is there is Warranty Laws, and they are usually about 30 days. You cannot just say "5 day warranty" and expect that in hold up in court.

My ex went through this in college with a dog. A 2500 Yorkie who cost us 1500 more in vet bills 2 weeks later. We got all of our money back. Which we didn't even want, we just wanted a healthy dog, and the judge made them pay the vet fees as well. This was after, they refused to just replace the Dog, which is all we wanted.

They also got in trouble with AKC, or so AKC told my Ex.

This all varies state to state though.

https://aldf.org/article/what-to-do...urchased-became-sick-or-died-soon-afterwards/

There's a diffrence between a person killing the animal due to poor care, or improper setup. And being sold an animal who had a condition that proves fatal a couple weeks later.

BTW, the limit is 15 days federally, so Becca is protected and she would win in court. For my Ex's case it wasnt "sick", it had a Liver Shunt most likely due to being Inbred (Vets words) so that falls under the 60 day.

All these breeders with "5" gaurntees. Would be wise to read the law. You can say your guarantee is whatever you want. Just like people on eBay say no refunds. However in reality the law is not on the same page.

Most audio Places don’t even offer warranty on AMPs etc

 

[cyberlocc]

Most audio Places don’t even offer warranty on AMPs etc

Right but that falls into the same as eBay no refunds. They can try and say their is no warranty. However legally there is. There is laws that govern warranties and protect consumers. They can say whatever they want, however if push comes to shove and it goes to court, they will award the buyer.

 

[Thatwizard420]

IDK who Becca is, but that Chameleon name sound familiar. Bahari. Like if I read about him in another Thread

 

[cyberlocc]

IDK who Becca is, but that Chameleon name sound familiar. Bahari

Oh sorry, everyone keeps calling her Becca so I forget her name is Beman on the forums.

 

[Thatwizard420]

Oh sorry, everyone keeps calling her Becca so I forget her name is Beman on the forums.

Oh Ok... I do know who that is. Ohhh I get it now.

 

[mkeBob]

On Thursday at 12:01 PM I sent the following PM to MVG.

Re: Current debacle with Becca

I've been a member of Chameleon Forums for almost
ten years now, usually lurking in the weeds. However, I
had to take the time to contact you regarding what I feel
you should do to rectify this problem.

It is my opinion that for you to keep your business
moving forward you should contact Becca privately,
offer a full refund and pay all of the veterinary bills
related.

It is my hope that you can work this out, have your
own animals checked, cleared and resume your normal
business. If not, can't see a way it would be possible to move forward.

 

[snitz427]

The cham was apparently presenting symptoms early on, but due to the stress and not pooping - how on earth could she identify the parasite id he didn’t poop for 10+ days?

I picked my panthers up in person - it was a 4 hour drive, and they were stressed. It was a week before one pooped.

By the time Beman/Becca had a fecal sample the warranty would have been up already.

 

[Brodybreaux25]

On Thursday at 12:01 PM I sent the following PM to MVG.

Re: Current debacle with Becca

I've been a member of Chameleon Forums for almost
ten years now, usually lurking in the weeds. However, I
had to take the time to contact you regarding what I feel
you should do to rectify this problem.

It is my opinion that for you to keep your business
moving forward you should contact Becca privately,
offer a full refund and pay all of the veterinary bills
related.

It is my hope that you can work this out, have your
own animals checked, cleared and resume your normal
business. If not, can't see a way it would be possible to nove forward.

I don’t know you but be careful, your making too much business sense!

 

[krikinit]

I have full confidence in @Matt Vanilla Gorilla and @Teal Beauty. Raising raptors this happens quite a bit. I have personally delt with this nasty little "bug" and its not easy to say how they got it. I have had many conversations with Matt at all hours of the day. His family is clearly dedicated and loving. If you are only a consumer it is difficult to understand and very easy to point a finger. Without a doubt I still will continue to do business with Matt and his family. Nothing but love for you!

 

[Thatwizard420]

I have full confidence in @Matt Vanilla Gorilla and @Teal Beauty. Raising raptors this happens quite a bit. I have personally delt with this nasty little "bug" and its not easy to say how they got it. I have had many conversations with Matt at all hours of the day. His family is clearly dedicated and loving. If you are only a consumer it is difficult to understand and very easy to point a finger. Without a doubt I still will continue to do business with Matt and his family. Nothing but love for you!

Yeah, I don’t think they would “sell” one of their Chams if they know it’s sick.

 

[snitz427]

I dont think its finger pointing as much as confusion by the lack of response/resolution to a problem.

 

[Thatwizard420]

I dont think its finger pointing as much as confusion by the lack of response/resolution to a problem.

I see how that speaks a million “negative” words. A business needs quality Customer Service. Idk how they handle the situation, but I do not think they’re bad persons.

 

[snitz427]

In my eyes, if at day 1 Matt came out and was like “how can we help,” I’d have a slightly different reaction. And i dont mean a pat on the back and “thoughts and prayers.”

 

[Thatwizard420]

In my eyes, if at day 1 Matt came out and was like “how can we help,” I’d have a slightly different reaction. And i dont mean a pat on the back and “thoughts and prayers.”

Is Amanda and Becca same person? I read whole thread and I’m confused ?

 

[JacksJill]

I opened this thread thinking that the people that brought us a brilliant thread on treating eye problems eye-health-the-solution-experienced-keepers-please-share-your-wisdom.152159/ would now lead with ideas on how to deal with coccidia from a breeders stand point. My disappointment is palpable. A house divided shall not stand, lets get back to solving problems.


So I'm going to take a crack at it. I'm a chameleon breeder my friends are chameleon breeders. Some of the chameleons I've acquired have come to me with coccidia. This is something I've been putting some thought into. I have a lot of thoughts on this forgive me if I ramble.

It is easiest to eliminate it in new arrivals but not always possible. It can take multiple treatments and cage cleanings to eliminate. Chameleons have a limited breeding window especially the females. Vet exams are expensive and the medications can be as well. Some animals live full lives while infected with it while others wither and are lost. Some vets will tell you to treat others will tell you it's ok and they can live with it. We know chameleons try to hide any illness as long as they can. We know that transfers to new cages and shipping can bring out any hidden problems. There are more than one kind of coccidia that infect chameleons. This might be why some do well and others do not. It might come down to the genetics of the individual. Maybe the ones that fail just got more of an exposure. It is probably a combination of factors.

If you have a large collection you use a UVB meter to save on light bulbs. The next step in getting a microscope to save on fecal exams. All of the things you need are readily available on Amazon or eBay. Tip: When reading fecals for coccidia, because it is a smaller oocyst, they tend to cluster on one side of the slide or the other so you must read the entire slide and review the edges and center at higher magnification.
Some veterinarians will allow you to bring in your own fecal results and microscopes come with cameras or your phone camera can capture images thru the scope. Cultivate a relationship with your veterinarian so they understand you are treating an entire group and see if they will treat it as herd management vs individual billing. Some will some won't but you don't know until you ask.

The ponazuril is expensive on an individual basis. It is an equine drug in paste form. It is 270-290$ per tube. It has a reasonable shelf life until it is diluted. A tube would treat thousands of chameleons. The price goes up as you pay a pharmacy to compound it down to a reasonable dilution to use on a 50-150g chameleon. If you are sophisticated enough to dilute it yourself you can save more. This is not a beginner exercise as a 10 percent error could be devastating. You will need your veterinarian to prescribe it and give you a dosage and a schedule.

There is another drug Toltrazuril, it is the same class of drug as Ponazuril. I've had people here tell me it is more effective but that was just in their opinion. They found it to be effective nonetheless. I found it priced at 50$ for 200ml of the 5% solution. It is used in birds to treat coccidia and it comes in 5% and 2.5% solutions. It is used for pigeons and song birds so dilution wouldn't be as dramatic. Your vet. would need to give you a dosage and schedule. The schedule is a little different than ponazuril.

Consider using feeders that that don't collect poop vs free feeding in large collections so there is less chance of reinfection and a heavy parasite load. There is nothing we can do about the ones that lose the genetic lottery and hide it from us but the other factors do have potential for improvement.

Now these are questions not a statements. Would treating a prepurchased chameleon with a deposit taken prior to shipment be enough to knock the infection down so that the immune problems that shipping and a new environment creates and help more young chameleons survive? Could they be isolated and treated entirely prior to shipping with a non refundable deposit for all detected parasites? What would a parasite free guarantee be worth to the consumer? Puppies come with vaccines and deworming why not chameleons? I recently saw an add for chameleons that came with a treated for parasites line in the ad.

This is worth discussing. Let's pull together and look for solutions.

 

[Graves923]

Now these are questions not a statements. Would treating a prepurchased chameleon with a deposit taken prior to shipment be enough to knock the infection down so that the immune problems that shipping and a new environment creates and help more young chameleons survive? Could they be isolated and treated entirely prior to shipping with a non refundable deposit for all detected parasites? What would a parasite free guarantee be worth to the consumer? Puppies come with vaccines and deworming why not chameleons? I recently saw an add for chameleons that came with a treated for parasites line in the ad.

This is worth discussing. Let's pull together and look for solutions.

This is how we move forward. Arguing back and forth is just going to push both sides further from a solution and will keep fresh wounds from healing.

 

[snitz427]

I would absolutely pay more for a chameleon with a recent (~2 week) bill of health and clean fecal from a vet.

 

[nightanole]

Oh Ok... I do know who that is. Ohhh I get it now.

Just call her Beman's Mom

 

[JacksJill]

The question then becomes and be honest would you pay $150 more?