Investigation In Progress

[jamest0o0]

From someone who just reads these forums and looking through the keyhole, just an opinion.

This seems to be someone trying to explain themselves, with a bunch a typical internet trolls attacking them, you have even started with the memes. Self realization is important, its easy to be harsh behind a keyboard, this type is found in every community and you know who you are. The breeder looks like they are trying their best, the trolls look like trolls.

Looks like Matt had another family member get on the forums to post. Maybe learn the facts before you make goofball comments kiddo.

 

[Matt Vanilla Gorilla]

Looks like Matt had another family member get on the forums to post. Maybe learn the facts before you make goofball comments kiddo.

I do not know this person, but I appreciate their objectivity and feel sad that they attempted to defend me! Now they are being attacked too!

 

[Matt Vanilla Gorilla]

I am so sorry, I can not participate any further today! There is life outside of cyberspace! Lol

 

[Lennoncham]

Everyone just stop. This isn’t helping anything. We all know there are risks to owning chameleons. These things happen. Everyone is just upset because it was / is STILL being handled poorly.

Matt and Jess I don’t know you personally and have barley talked to you on here. But I have seen all the amazing chameleons you guys have produced and all the help you have given the members of the community. That is why everyone is so upset that you are continuing to handle this this poorly. It is actually very sad to watch.

You should have let this blow over for a lot longer before making this thread. You said you gave it time. What 4 days? Then asked people to leave good reviews. Like do you not see how ****ing insensitive you are being?

I would really hate to see you ruin your business over this. I think you guys need to take the time and look after you collection and do multiple fecals of multiple chams until you are absolutely sure there is nothing. Posting this thread should be the last thing on your guys mind right now.

To everyone else. Please stop commenting here. This isn’t helping the community and most of all it is t helping Becca.

 

[MrsM]

Guys stop throwing pain at pain.
I just want to say I respect Matt and Jess and Beman. All three are passionate about chameleons and helping people and have helped me. it’s obvious they all loved Bahari - even before he had a name and all of them are hurting, and YES it should be acknowledged for all parties.
Why can’t we acknowledge there is pain in everyone’s hearts, all sides, and as a community. Everyone’s hearts skipped a beat when they saw him delivered. We are all heartbroken, but what now? It seems like an anomaly, a terrible outcome and the resolution really just needs to be worked out privately.
I’ve known bad breeders. These are not the case. My chameleons ( from other breeder) were malnourished with broken bones and MBD when I got them. Meanwhile you see this is a family that has many happy scale babies adopted out to our forum. This is a case where there are amends that need to be made, but from people who are diligent and passionate. I want the forums to include ppl like Beman, AND Matt and family because without them I would have lost two chameleons.
It’s hard watching people who have good intentions get vilified and i Just want this to be the kind of place where people see we can move forward together and elevate one another even when things go wrong.

 

[Decadancin]

So since a forum member has been nice enough to remind me of the rules and how I don't follow them ...

I will also bring up the fact that we do not allow public business disputes here on the forums. Since the actual business owner is the one who started this thread, I am at a loss as to how to proceed here. I was considering this each and every post during a recent thread, but now it is even more confusing to me.

If anyone thinks I am not following the site rules, please feel free to discuss it publicly here so I can make a totally unbiased decision.

 

[Daesie11]

So since a forum member has been nice enough to remind me of the rules and how I don't follow them ...

I will also bring up the fact that we do not allow public business disputes here on the forums. Since the actual business owner is the one who started this thread, I am at a loss as to how to proceed here. I was considering this each and every post during a recent thread, but now it is even more confusing to me.

If anyone thinks I am not following the site rules, please feel free to discuss it publicly here so I can make a totally unbiased decision.

I believe you have been completely unbiased and objective of an issue that is very important to you, which is not easy. You have let a heated debate continue in the spirit of free speech, and have kept us in check while watching over us.
I can say with certainty that this thread would have gone a completely different way, had you not been watching over us.

 

[MrsM]

It seems like they are looking at ways to examine breeding and shipping practices to find out what went wrong, and how and when fecal testing can be done to save lives.
Which seems like really the most we can hope as far as public good. So let’s learn. Do breeder start doing pre and post ship fecals, do you know of anyone that does that now? Do breeders change when they test?
Let’s cut the blame game and use this as an opportunity to save lives and keep chameleons healthy.
This is how we make this tragedy into something that can be positive.
If they want to step up I think it shows guts and yes they are doing so because they care.
It doesn’t resolve their single dispute or necessarily make it right, but it could help us understand how to not have it happen again.

 

[cyberlocc]

They're just playing the family card by having wifey post. It's one of the weapons in their sales arsenal. No need to get upset friends.

So, that's a bad sales tactic. As a business owner, seeing the way some people in this industry behave publicly while representing their business in the same breath is appalling.

As is the way they are defended on a pedestal, for things that go right, propped up for things they SHOULD being doing, and given passes for things they do wrong and do not fix.

I am truly amazed, at how lax this industry is and how quick people are to forget, and let go, even with negative actions.

If you are an active Business in this industry, you should be thankful of it's kindness and understanding, that would not be tolerated elsewhere, and take it into account when dealing with your customer base.

This is not directed at OP Only, mostly just a generalization of what I seen the industry.

As to the OP, the way this thread is structured is as an all out attack. It's not professional in the slightest, it's not a PR savior, but a damager and I would never allow such a post, in reflection of my business personally. I know alot of folks here, will tell you, I am rude here at times, that's because I am just a hobbyist that cares. However if it was my business and if it ever is, my entire demeanor would adjust accordingly, emotion, that you keep speaking of OP, has no place in a business world.

From a Business Transaction Perspective, as that's what this was. Your love for the Cham, Becca's Love, ect, is all irrelevant. The only thing relevant here is you sold a Defective product, plain and simple. You know it, I know it, now it needs to be made right.

That may seem cold, and as you say you care. Well then you shouldn't be in Business, because this is not how you run a Business.

Now I seen Teal, that you stated you don't ship the Chams. You understand what I am saying here, and you know you get emotional, and you can't deal with the business side. That's fine stick to breeding, no one would complain about lots of love raising the babies. However you should likely refrain from making PR statements, not trying to be mean, just telling the truth.

I have always like Matt, however I must admit I have lost alot of respect for him, in this incident and the way he has approached it. This thread is just the icing on the cake.

This behavior is inexcusable, the fact you would do this to a customer and to your Businesses name, over a few hundred dollars is very confusing, I hope you have not fell on hard times and that has caused this behavior.

I hope this works out for everyone in the end.

It seems like they are looking at ways to examine breeding and shipping practices to find out what went wrong, and how and when fecal testing can be done to save lives.
Which seems like really the most we can hope as far as public good. So let’s learn. Do breeder start doing pre and post ship fecals, do you know of anyone that does that now? Do breeders change when they test?
Let’s cut the blame game and use this as an opportunity to save lives and keep chameleons healthy.
This is how we make this tragedy into something that can be positive.
If they want to step up I think it shows guts and yes they are doing so because they care.
It doesn’t resolve their single dispute or necessarily make it right, but it could help us understand how to not have it happen again.

So my Outlook to this, and me and James were discussing it the other day.

IF I was a Breeder (there might be a day ). I personally would invest in a Microscope and the Fecal Book, and further supplies.

As a breeder, you would hopefully be bringing in WCs, and have alot of Chams in and Out. If I had a collection of that scale, and a responsibility to my customer base, the few hundred of dollars and couple of hours total it would take to ensure every Chameleon owned and Shipped was clear would be forefront.

I understand the Health Gaurntee, however as I have taken it, that's to cover that nothing was an issue when shipped. If you sell an animal that has a pre existing conditions that is found shortly after, you need to take back or at least refund the Animal.

To be clear I am not saying you should reimburse for a chameleon with a Heart Defect 2 years later. However this incident in violation, of your health guarantee. Your gaurntee states you will receive a healthy animal. The animal was sick the day it arrived, just because it went unnoticed a few extra days doesn't mean it's outside your gaurntee.

Also as has been said. The positive Reviews OP asked for. Throw them out the window. I don't care how many have been happy, how do you handle the issues is what defines you as a Business. You are supposed to be a Trustworthy Business, not a Lottery. Are you breeders or Used Car Salesmen, this entire incident has appeared the later. "Oops you didn't catch the sickness till a few days after warranty, better luck next time" is all I am picturing.

That all, accompanied by your request to not have Negative reviews here, and deleting them on Facebook. That just shows the true Character of you as people and as a Business.

 

[Syreptyon]

So what you are saying is that it is completely acceptable for all the negative bashing that has taken place and despite for all the positive help and experiences we have shared with others, those exchanges have no value here. Allow only the negativity?

We posted this response to let our online community know what we intend to do from here on out to ensure that we can avoid an experience like this in the future. We are open to feedback both positive and negative, however as professionals and any other reputable business, prefer to have a conversation regarding the negative so that we can continue to improve as a business. Honestly, none of this had any place here on the forums. It was made that way by a small group of discontented individuals who have never done personal business with us but were basing their attacks on the one-sided experience of another.

The site rules are also clearly against attacking, bashing, or slandering or defamation of others!

It would have been nice if you actually read what I wrote. Never, anywhere, not one word in my post suggested to only allow negative feedback. In fact, please go back to my post and point out where I said that. That's completely ridiculous and, frankly, insulting. What I said was, it is not acceptable to filter out specifically only the bad. What I said to you, in no uncertain terms, was that allowing BOTH (note: the bold/underline/italicized text here means you need to pay attention to it because it is the whole point of what I said in the first place and maybe now by emphasizing it you will not ignore the intent of my post) positive and negative feedback is critical aspect of any business. I emphasized, repeatedly, the importance of both. And you chose to ignore everything I said and try to delegitimize/minimize it into "Allow only negativity." Is that really what you got from my post? It is unfair of you to try, albeit unsuccessfully, to twist my words like that.

I did not bash. I did not attack. I did not slander. I did not defame. I did not incite others to do any of those things. A negative experience cannot be equated to slander. Are some people being overtly unkind and rude? Yes. Am I supporting that? No. Not in any way. I don't agree with any of that.

I wrote a carefully thought-out message to express the reasons for backlash, being very careful to choose words that are non-inflammatory. Don't put words in my mouth.

 

[Matt Vanilla Gorilla]

So since a forum member has been nice enough to remind me of the rules and how I don't follow them ...

I will also bring up the fact that we do not allow public business disputes here on the forums. Since the actual business owner is the one who started this thread, I am at a loss as to how to proceed here. I was considering this each and every post during a recent thread, but now it is even more confusing to me.

If anyone thinks I am not following the site rules, please feel free to discuss it publicly here so I can make a totally unbiased decision.

You and Brad repeatedly urged us to start a thread with our side of the story and with how urgent it is to do it soon!

 

[jamest0o0]

I don't feel bad for the bashing. If I was out that much money and had to see an animal suffer and die, I'd be freaking. I can see why it is no good for the forums though and I'll shut up from here. I just think some people are forgetting how they'd act or feel if this happened to them.

 

[LittleLindsay]

Can everyone stop for a second and remember who this is about? Becca.

I do not have to answer to you, but I will say that yes indeed there were MANY, MANY false statements and assumptions made regarding what transpired with this transaction. We say this as fact! Sometimes those that are silent have more than what you are aware of going on in their lives that they are attempting to deal with! My suggestion would be for you and your gang to drop it now. Move on. You do not have to read or comment further on this thread.

Can you please list these 'false statements' so that they can be discussed and eventually put to rest. Then you won't have to worry about more being made.

 

[cyberlocc]

You and Brad repeatedly urged us to start a thread with our side of the story and with how urgent it is to do it soon!

I don't think any one is mad about you starting a thread.

It's mostly the demeanor in it. Your attitude about this situation ect, is glaring through your wife's words.

It seems like you guys made a thread to play Victim. You are not a Victim here, no one is bashing you saying you sent a sick Cham on purpose, I don't think anyone thinks that.

People are saying they do not think you are handling it appropriately, and if you feel you are, then let it go. However to try and play a victim card, because people do not agree with the way you are handling it.

Some of the things said in this thread, have been appalling. I can not Believe Teal had the nerve to say, you had Bahari longer so it should hurt you more.

Are you actually serious right now? Your destroying your own reputation no one else is.

The Coccidia is unfortunate, and it if handled properly you could have came out with a better reputation. No one is mad at you for it, I don't even think Becca is. It's the way you acted and continue to, that's what is going to destroy your reputation. You guys are torching your business on fire, with the responses you are using.

 

[Decadancin]

You and Brad repeatedly urged us to start a thread with our side of the story and with how urgent it is to do it soon!

Yes, I suggested that you respond on Thursday Morning. As I stated then...

"Just wanted to reach out to you since this thread is starting to turn against you and your business. I have enjoyed your content here on the forums and elsewhere and have always supported you in my responses. I don't think you have ever misrepresented yourselves and have earned the respect of the community over the years..."
"I am in no way trying to tell you what to do, and I don't even know if I would know what to do in this situation if I were faced with it ..."

"If I can offer some advice, it would be this...
I would offer the fact that often animals can have naturally occurring parasites within their bodies and they can live long and healthy lives. Stress can trigger immune system issues that can cause the body to be less effective against these things. Parasites can thrive under the right circumstances and perhaps that is what happened here. You don't need to accept blame for this, but it might go a long way with the community to do so..."

Again, I was looking out for you as a well respected member of the community here. It was friendly advice. I understand your side of things, and have repeatedly stated that everyone does not have all the information, but that isn't the issue anymore.

This thread, asking for people to praise you for your record of service and quality is ill-timed. It is not what I suggested. It does come across as insensitive and self serving. That is why you are again feeling attacked by the community.

For everyone reading this, I for one am truly sorry for all parties involved. I can't imagine what this has done to these two households. I do not even for a moment claim that I would know what to do if I were in this situation. I do know that this situation is going nowhere fast and has gotten actually worse over the past few days. I hope in time things will get better. For those who care about Becca, please just support her through this and show that you are here for her. For those who care about Matt and his family, do the same! Just please do not keep adding fuel to the embers anymore. Leave these conversations alone and let this go. Perhaps some day the two sides can talk this over in private, but that will undoubtedly take considerable time.

 

[nightanole]

I am not a Mod but....

Every thread that start with "what do you think of blablabah reptiles and chameleons.com" is normally locked.

Lets be honest, we dont have enough mods/lawyers to monitor such threads. Even faunaclassifieds had to make vendor review section paid only.

This is not twitter or facebook.


Any "blabla bla chameleons.com praise thread" should be classified as a free advertisement, and locked. Doesnt matter who started the thread.
Any "blabla bla chameleons.com hate thread" should be locked for breaking the rules. Doesnt matter who started the thread.

You want to post your pictures of snowball and say you bought them from blabla if someone asks, go for it.
You want to ask for medical help for snowball, go for it.

It gets pretty grey after that once you tell the horde where you got snowball from, or worse, other forum members start posting on your behalf(and you never mentioned the vendor), and you lose all control of the situation.


If all else fails, move it to the lounge...

 

[snitz427]

While I can appreciate operating as a business with a cap on the warranty period, I think a “5 day extension” in this instance is warranted. This wasn’t a thermal burn, or dehydration case, or any other issue that might have cropped up in 2 weeks of poor care ... this was an issue that would have clearly been present during the warranty phase, and Becca was unfortunate enough to not get confirmation until day 15.

I’m not a small business owner, but always hoped to be... I realize it is a difficult job, and sometimes you can’t make the customer happy no matter what you do, or people take advantage and hold your reputation hostage. Those are unfortunate realities businesses face... however... this instance was neither of these.

From a business standpoint - I am honestly baffled why you didnt refund Becca after the vet visit - or be more concerned through the process. $500 would be a small price to pay to save your name, and in my opinion, to do the right thing. At the very least, instead of offering “thoughts and prayers,” I would have been offering support and insight, investigation and concern... and again... ultimately I would have refunded her money and then some.

(I have no idea the price she paid - I just threw a number out there)

 

[Rst_Cham]

While I can appreciate operating as a business with a cap on the warranty period, I think a “5 day extension” in this instance is warranted. This wasn’t a thermal burn, or dehydration case, or any other issue that might have cropped up in 2 weeks of poor care ... this was an issue that would have clearly been present during the warranty phase, and Becca was unfortunate enough to not get confirmation until day 15.

I’m not a small business owner, but always hoped to be... I realize it is a difficult job, and sometimes you can’t make the customer happy no matter what you do, or people take advantage and hold your reputation hostage. Those are unfortunate realities businesses face... however... this instance was neither of these.

From a business standpoint - I am honestly baffled why you didnt refund Becca after the vet visit - or be more concerned through the process. $500 would be a small price to pay to save your name, and in my opinion, to do the right thing. At the very least, instead of offering “thoughts and prayers,” I would have been offering support and insight, investigation and concern... and again... ultimately I would have refunded her money and then some.

(I have no idea the price she paid - I just threw a number out there)

I have to completely agree with Natalie! I *am* a customer of yours, having bought my chameleon from you in January. Everything was fine, which is great, but what if it hadn't been? How a company handles themselves in response to a negative outcome says a lot to current and prospective customers. I too am completely baffled and saddened by your response and reaction to this tragic turn of events. Do I think for one single moment that you intentionally or knowingly shipped out a sick chameleon? Of course not! But that doesn't change the fact that Becca received a sick animal, as stated by her vet. I've been employed by the American Animal Hospital Association for the past twelve years; we accredit veterinary hospitals in the United States and Canada, I have the utmost respect for the veterinary industry and for veterinarians. So when Becca's veterinarian says that there is no way that Bahari could have contracted Coccidia in Becca's care due to the lab results/numbers being too high for the short of a period of time that she had him, I accept that as fact. Therefore, your health guarantee definitely should apply and Becca should at the very least be refunded the money, including shipping, that she paid. I really wholeheartedly believe that it is as simple as that. As Cyberlocc states above, you are in business; you unfortunately shipped a defective "product" and therefore should have allowed for return or refund. It's just good business, and as Natalie says, it's also about just doing the right thing. Please reconsider your stance.

 

[snitz427]

Wow - just saw the “if you don’t like it sue me” post. I’m not a business owner, as I stated, but I DO work in the legal industry. Telling someone to take you to civil court over $500 is risky on your part... as at this point I’d say she has a case for far more than that once damages are calculated. It’s $10 to file a civil suit... and the paperwork is pretty straight forward. That would be even worse for your reputation.

That sounded like a bluff you probably shouldn’t throw around...

 

[Thatwizard420]

So I bought an AMP with 12 days warranty, on the 15th day, it stopped working. I tried to get a refund at the store, but I couldn’t. Not even an exchange. Did I blame the store? No, it was probably me who messed it up. Did I go back to that store? Yes, store didn’t loose rep just because I bought something from them and stopped working after warranty expired.
That being said, for a living thing 5 days is not enough. I think 14 days would be the ideal “warranty”.

I’m not taking sides on this, just gotta throw it out there, don’t fight other people’s battles. Let’s all be adults, let the parties involved come to their resolution. We just judging, name calling, and assuming.
Pen mightier than the sword!!