Harder to care for panther morphs?

[warpdrive]

Why would someone sell a pure locale as a cross? I'm not understanding our disagreement on the subject? I'm confused.

that's because you don't understand the problem and are just basicly stating what you read here on this forum.
the problem is that this forum (like Jared points out from time to time) "likes" to state things that are not really true.

things like:
all chameleons need screen cages.
screen cages are easyer then glass enclosures.
lights need to be on 12 hours, off 12 hours.
mist 3 times a day.
compact florests are bad....oh, I know I'm gona get flamed for that.

if you don't understand the problem, STOP POSTING!!! it is time to listen to learn, and learn to listen.

the real problem is the seller. NOT THE ANIMAL like many on here will tell you.
if the seller is dishonest, he is dishonest. the animal is still the same GOOD animal.

you say you wouldn't buy from someone bad. how about if Chris Anderson has a WC Nose Be female picked out for you from a shipment that just came in? I mewan, "HE" hand picked it for you to breed for your WC Nose Be male that you have...would you trust him? is "he" bad? isn't he well respected?
now just how in the world would you be able to tell before mating the animal if it is a nosy or not?
(oh, and this happened to a forum member, so true story.)

yet you said...

Oh yeah, and it's not me I'm worried about buying from a not so good seller, it's all the people who get the animal before they figure everything out then decide to breed them after they do.

now how can you tell the differance before you breed her?
please explain in detail.

you see, you don't understand the problem. so why are you not asking questions instead of saying things that are not factual?

what if I wanted to sell a Nosy Be female from a strong sire and dame?
do you trust me? after all, my word is "golden" around here.
nbow what if the adult female was realy an ambilobie? is the female ambilobe "bad" or "good"? is it the animal's fault for being sold incorrectly to you? if so, how? please explain in detail.

what if I sold you a young male that you couldn't tell that it was not only an ambilobie, but an ambilobe from Amaze Jr.Jr., a great looking red bodyed blue bar...that I told you was a Nosy Be? would the young male be a bad Ambilobie, or bad Nosy Be? or none of the above?

do you see what can and does happen from a dishonest seller that has nothing to do with crosses at all?
it's not the animal's falt that it is being misrepresented, it's the seller.

so why (as Jared puts it) is this hobbie so bass akwords? it's not the hobby. it's this forum. you will never hear such rubbish from an other website. only this.
do you know just how hard it is to keep posts like this clean with factual information?

it's time to listen to learn, and learn to listen.

just my 2 cents. sorry if I made anyone feel offended.

Harry

 

[pssh]

Oh my gosh. I'm not saying they are bad. Im saying the sellers who lie are bad. Jeeze.
I did not say the animal was a female, did I?

You need to read better.

 

[warpdrive]

Made no sense to me. Because my chams know its winter. Just because the heat is running they dont think its summer time man. Just the opposite they sloow down food intake and go to sleep about an hr earlier. They can detect seasonal changes even if they are housed indoors.

And you can keep a sambava and an ambanja in identical conditions in captivity. But that doesnt mean they arent from entirely different geographic regions. I mean one locale comes from the rain forest and the other from a drier savannah like area.

in some small ways, once again, I agree. I was a bit quick to reply.
yet latitudal lighting once again is minor, and the avg rain fall is once again different, but not as drastic as one would think.

as for the seasonal changes, I have not seen this at all for the past two years from the 6 chameleons that I've had....at least with food intake and sleeping.

Harry

 

[Olimpia]

Bravo Harry! THANK YOU for saying that it's not the animals fault, which seems so freaking obvious but people on here still call crosses names, insulting them as if the poor chameleon even knows what's going on. Which is not only absolutely riddiculous but completely unecessary. I've heard individual hybrid panthers called any number of condescending insults more times than I have fingers and toes to count them on.

I also agree about the info on this forum. There are probably dozens of senior members on here that don't stick to the husbandry "standards" that are constantly pushed for new members. But I bet you that all of them are afraid of saying what it is they do (and works for them) because of the critisism. Which is a shame, because I think we lose information this way. Instead of investigating and trying to push newer, better UV lights like the Megaray ones from Reptile UV, for example, people are too busy stuck recommending the 5.0. While other forums are actively sharing different experiences and husbandry techniques that might be out there but work.

 

[pssh]

Mega rays are a bit strong for a 2x2x4 cage if you ask me. In a free range, sure. You'd have to hang the light up pretty dang high above the cage, which is not very practical. Paying $50 for a 6 month SB light is quite a bit. If you want the EB lights they are even more expensive! Blah. I like them, they are just very pricey.

Edit: I'm talking about the low ones.

 

[warpdrive]

Oh my gosh. I'm not saying they are bad. Im saying the sellers who lie are bad. Jeeze.
I did not say the animal was a female, did I?

You need to read better.

I've posted a male example, and a female example...but you are right, while you might be confused (and you did state that), I do need a new pair of glasses. sadly, I don't think this is the problem Kara.

Harry

 

[Olimpia]

No, I get that. I'm actually trying to build a couple large cages for a couple of my guys for when they can't be living outside and I'm figuring out how to hang the lights above the cages a good length. I'll probably end up building a simple arch over the cage to hang the lights from, so they're a foot away. But they're excellent lights, it's worth making the change if it's possible.

 

[warpdrive]

I also agree about the info on this forum. There are probably dozens of senior members on here that don't stick to the husbandry "standards" that are constantly pushed for new members. But I bet you that all of them are afraid of saying what it is they do (and works for them) because of the critisism. Which is a shame, because I think we lose information this way. Instead of investigating and trying to push newer, better UV lights like the Megaray ones from Reptile UV, for example, people are too busy stuck recommending the 5.0. While other forums are actively sharing different experiences and husbandry techniques that might be out there but work.

you have no idea how many people on this forum use Glass enclosures and are scared crapless to post the information for years apon years. or use different lights, and so on. people we highly respect, yet we as a community have pushed them to the side and told them to "SHUT UP".

personally, I wish they would speak up more on such topics so others would not be afraid.
like how I don't agree that with warmer temps my animals should some how slow down their metabolic rate of digestion and not be hungry and be more active, and how when they are colder for months they slow down and eat less. I won't post false obsevations on my part...I just wont because others say it can't happen and my animals can tell the differance in seasons. I'm "rude" that way. sorry if I may seem to disagree.

Harry

 

[Olimpia]

Oh I can imagine. And I talk closely with a lot of users who do things (like I do) that we would never post on this forum, be it the types of enclosures we use or number of hours the lights are on, to food... whatever because we know the response here wouldn't be friendly. Do these things work just fine for us? Maybe even better than other recommended methods? Yea sure, in some cases yes. Husbandry is always changing and evolving as we discover new and better ways of doing things. But I think this growth is hindered here because of the attitude.

You see it all the time, some new member with 3 days of experience with their new animal who is already critiquing people's cages - "OMG is that glass?!" Or offering advice that they haven't even had time to use yet, but they've heard it so they repeat it fervently.

But alas... we're all still here LOL We complain a lot for people who are here many times a week.

 

[pssh]

I said I was confused about what we were disagreeing about. Let me break it down for you. I think panther crosses are fine as long as they are sold as crosses. Get it? If you don't, I can't really break it down any more than that.

Why would you be scared to post something online? It's just online. You know? Shoot, I don't mist my chameleons more than once a day (not montanes.) So? I don't feed them regularly either. The adults anyways (except the petite guys.) Whatever. If it works, it works. If someone says no, then just go with it. if they cant come up with a legitimate reason for why you shouldn't (that you can't counter) do what you are doing, then too bad.

 

[Julirs]

I also agree about the info on this forum. There are probably dozens of senior members on here that don't stick to the husbandry "standards" that are constantly pushed for new members. But I bet you that all of them are afraid of saying what it is they do (and works for them) because of the critisism. Which is a shame, because I think we lose information this way. Instead of investigating and trying to push newer, better UV lights like the Megaray ones from Reptile UV, for example, people are too busy stuck recommending the 5.0. While other forums are actively sharing different experiences and husbandry techniques that might be out there but work.

While I agree this is a true statement, I pretty much follow the husbandry standards that I share with the newbies. What I will say though, is what works for one may not work for all, and what works in Florida probably won't work so well up North. It is hard to go wrong with a well planted screen cage, UVB, heat lamp, proper supplements and well gutloaded feeders.

 

[fluxlizard]

You see it all the time, some new member with 3 days of experience with their new animal who is already critiquing people's cages - "OMG is that glass?!" Or offering advice that they haven't even had time to use yet, but they've heard it so they repeat it fervently.

You just described all the reptile forums I've ever found on the internet. LOL

 

[warpdrive]

I said I was confused about what we were disagreeing about. Let me break it down for you. I think panther crosses are fine as long as they are sold as crosses. Get it? If you don't, I can't really break it down any more than that.

Why would you be scared to post something online? It's just online. You know? Shoot, I don't mist my chameleons more than once a day (not montanes.) So? I don't feed them regularly either. The adults anyways (except the petite guys.) Whatever. If it works, it works. If someone says no, then just go with it. if they cant come up with a legitimate reason for why you shouldn't (that you can't counter) do what you are doing, then too bad.

this is what you said...

A cross is a cross, and should stay a cross. Under those circumstances, I think crossing is fine. Lies about lineage/pure-ness make crosses 'bad.'

try to understand just what I'm saying:

1)on page one, this thread was helpful.
2)starting on page 2, a member stated something that was not helpful. then you Kara posted the above.
3)it is not in any way the animal's fault if it is being misrepresented.
4)the animal in question is never a "BAD" animal regardless if it is being misrepresented.
5)PURES are being just as misrepresented and CROSSES in our industry or hobby...if you don't know or understand that, then I can't help you.
6)crosses are good and should not be devalued by our members just because some people don't like them. it's like me saying that I don't like ambanjas and trying to get the community to agree with me and posting that ambanjas are "bad".
7)thiefs are BAD. sadly, in our hobby, they sell far more pures that are misrepresented and sold as locals that they are not from. THIS is what people get upset about because it leads to crosses that this community regards as lesser animals. in other words, if this community didn't devalue crosses, selling crosses would not only not be a problem, but would be just as valuble as pures. leading to no problems when selling a cross. it's a communical problem that has been started by the community.(example: when a member on page 2 says, "just say no to crosses", this is what I mean.)
8)then we have members like you, who come in here not knowing or understanding the "real" issue, post just in order to post. again, that is not helpful to the original thread starter or the hobby as a whole. there are lurkers out there who read threads like this every day...how did this 6 page tread become helpful to them when there is such garbage posted in it?

once again, the issue is not with the animal. once again, crosses are going to happen no matter what and should NOT be devalued to the point this forum has done. once again, a thief is a thief, and more times then not, a thief trys to sell a local as a different local just to help sell off his/her stock quickly and it happens far more then someone trying to sell off a cross as a pure...if you knew this and understood this, you wouldn't have posted what you did post.
beyond this, how is it helpful to the original thread starter to post many of the things you did such as...

I can't remember where, but I'm pretty sure someone had commented from their experiences that ankaramy crosses were harder to raise. Or maybe it was just ankaramy babies in general? Eh, either way it shows a different in difficulty and climate differences.

after all, you even state that you are not sure of the issue, yet you make a determination based on what again? your thoughts or ideas that are NOT backed up with any FACTS?
(also, do you know that many things are posted or even written in well respected BOOKS, THAT ARE NOT TRUE!!!!!!!!)
so once again, you have shown that you are just posting in order to post something, and are not even trying to be helpful to the OP or the community as a whole. this selfishness does not help in any way and can be quite hurtful, yet you keep doing it regardless that people like myself (who happen to like you) ask you to stop.


the problem with this forum is not that we as a community don't have different views or thoughts, but that sometimes, WE DON'T KNOW WHEN TO KEEP THEM TO OURSELFS. a perfect example is what this person said....

Just say NO to "crosses"

again, just how is this statement helpful to the community or the OP? yet he has the right to say it because this forum alows it. just like you have the right to say things that you can't back up or prove in any way, yet is it helpful? is it helpful to people who read this or to the OP? I say NO!

you then go on to say that maybe I need to learn to read...

Oh my gosh. I'm not saying they are bad. Im saying the sellers who lie are bad. Jeeze.
I did not say the animal was a female, did I?

You need to read better.

sweetheart, maybe it's time that you learn a bit of respect. after all, I posted examples of both females and males.

what if I sold you a young male that you couldn't tell that it was not only an ambilobie, but an ambilobe from Amaze Jr.Jr., a great looking red bodyed blue bar...that I told you was a Nosy Be? would the young male be a bad Ambilobie, or bad Nosy Be? or none of the above?

trust me, even if you are still confused or disagree with me, it was you who posted such nonsense and then became RUDE or DISRESPECTFUL. you then try to say that you never said that it was the animal that was bad but the seller, when you clearly stated the above. "crosses" are not bad as you say even if lied about. that is also true about pures. and trust me, it happens far more when we speak about pures then it does about crosses.


so once again, how is what you did helpful to the OP or the community in any way?

Harry

 

[pssh]

Did you notice I had the word bad in quotations? That is because I am using other peoples word for them. If I thought they were bad I would not have put quotations on the word.

I posted the link where I read the ankaramy thing, so you are a poopyface.

I know pures can be misrepresented, but I am talking about CROSSES being misrepresented. I don't know anyone who would misrepresent a pure as a cross, hence why I asked the question.

How can you tell me what I meant? What kind of respect is that? Don't talk about respect when you are completely lacking it. You don't know what you're talking about and you clearly don't understand it, so don't post about it. You're not doing any good, you're just hurting it.

I completely understand what I am talking about, and this is all my opinion on the subject. Don't you tell me that I don't know what I'm talking about. YOU don't know how to look at text from a different point of view, sir. I can understand how the confusion began now, but apparently you can't.

I know you're an adult and you think younger people/children cannot be smart/smarter than you, but that is sadly not the truth. Obviously I can tell you that because I KNOW what you mean. You didnt say it, but i know because I just do. I know everything because I'm older than you. I'm righter than you because I say so! Because I don't act like a child when I respond, and I'm not single minded in my understanding of text from and actual person who can inflect different tones on the words that change the whole sentence. Nope, not me. I just know because I do. I don't need a legitimate reason, because I just know, even though I'm not you. Yep, I know. I'm just that smart and amazing, because I KNOW what you really meant. Woah, you know what? I KNOW stuff. I know exactly what you meant even though you didn't say it. Yes sir, I know. Yep.

 

[Cainschams]

I don't think you are way off cainschams about natural conditions.

I think your thoughts are excellent.

But panthers are very adaptable for chameleons and pretty hardy when it comes to conditions.

The other thought I have is I believe I remember reading that at least some morphs are seasonal breeders in the wild. In captivity that goes out the window in our endless summer terrariums. I think this illustrates how wild conditions are not mandatory for some level of quality of life and it also demonstrates how they adaptable they are to environmental conditions- in this case by becoming more prolific and breeding year round in a presumably favourable environment.

But at the same time, if we carefully replicated wild conditions we would probably learn some things that might improve husbandry...

I agree that they are very adaptable. Probably the biggest reason those and veileds are easily bred, kept and have proved much more easier than a lot of other species out there.

TexasPantherMan

And you can keep a sambava and an ambanja in identical conditions in captivity. But that doesnt mean they arent from entirely different geographic regions. I mean one locale comes from the rain forest and the other from a drier savannah like area.

Combining these two statements, carefully replicating natural conditions for two different locales that are mixed and do live in somewhat different conditions, it would be impossible to keep both the locales in one animal at optimum conditions.

Just because a panther does well with the "endless summer terrarium"(I like how you put that) I feel panthers would be longer lived replicating the natural conditions and seasons. This is impossible when thinking of things such as altitudes, etc, but what we can replicate for one locale cannot be done for a mixed panther if natural conditions are different. Again i could be way off with my thoughts but I like to throw them out there because it keeps the brains churning

Warpdrives comments.

Jared, I agree to a point with you.

in my house there is a seasonal change. summers are winter due to the cold weather from my AC.
the winters are summer, due to my heat from my radiators.

From what I have experienced are that my animals knew winter, summer, outside lighting etc regardless of what was going on in my house. They can even tell the difference in light with my windows completely blocked off from any light getting in. For sometime, besides housing outside, I have blocked my cham room off from the rest of the house and vents so I can make it do whatever I want. I control it with a humidifier and an oil base heater. When housed outside, if it gets too hot, they go to the basement until weather permits me to take them back outside.

latitudal lighting conditions are basicly 12 hours on, 12 hours off, due to it only being a small real change if I wanted to go there to match the wild...
the summer would be 13 hours on and 11 hours off, while the winters would be 11 hours on and 13 hours off. (for the newbie, you may as well do 12 on, 12 off)

We are adamant about starting newbies off with the right lights, caging, feeding etc, everything needed to keep the animal healthy. Why not start them off simulating seasons? IMO its much more healthy for an animal to go through the seasons (regardless if it makes a difference in breeding) rather than the standard 12 on 12 off, 3 mistings a day etc. Its not very hard to simulate the seasons so I dont see a newbie getting overwhelmed with this.

now that I have (and am getting) animals that are far away from the equator and require such latitudal light change to help stimulate breeding...I'm already slowly making a change.

This is where I started getting more into simulating seasons etc. When I got animals that were more dependent on them, even while still keeping panthers.

but in the case with the difference in panther locals, such drastic differances in tempiture and lighting, as well as rain fall are almost exact.
all because they are all low land jungle chameleons. they just were seperated due to how the earth changed when Maddy broke apart from Africa.

so a sambava can be treated like a ambanja due to the altitude that it lives in is basicly the same, and the rainfall is more or less the same. and the temps and humidity is close enough to be almost the same.

I am going to have to disagree with this As of yet, and I havent scoured the earth or google, I have not found any information on altitudes or temps for the different locales. What I have found are climate descriptions, annual rainfall and number of dry months for some of the locales.

All of this information comes from "The Panther Chameleon" Color variation, natural history, conservation and captive management. By Gary W. Ferguson, James B. Murphy, Jean-Baptiste Ramanamanjato and Achille P. Raselimanana.

It will go from locality, climate description, annual rainfall MM (in) and Number of dry seasons.

Ile Reunion, Tropical Seasonal, 2500MM (100 in) rainfall, 5 to 6 dry months.

Tamatave, Tropical Wet, 2500MM (100 in) rainfall, 0 dry months.

Ile Ste. Marie, Tropical Wet, 1500MM (60 in) rainfall, 0 dry months.

Maroantsetra, Tropical Wet, 2500MM (100 in) rainfall, 0 dry months.

Sambava, Tropical Wet, 1500MM (60 in) rainfall, 0 dry months.

Diego Suarez, Tropical Sesonal (dry), 1000MM (40 in) rainfall, 7 to 8 dry months.

Ambanja, Tropical Moist, 1500MM (60 in) rainfall, 1 to 2 dry months.

Nosy Be, Tropical Moist, 1500MM (60 in) rainfall, 1 to 2 dry months.

A Sambava and Ambanja do not have the same exact natural conditions. This doesnt even get into altitude, high and low temps, photo period etc. I will try and find those but if someone else can help it would be appreciated

And I say the hobby is bass ackwards because of one of the easiest species to breed goes for some of the highest prices out there and also sell like hot cakes. The other harder species do not sell well and at 100$ I think my prices were well over fair for the tavetana. I lost quite a bit of dough on those but that is not what its about for me. They are in good hands, that is what makes me happy. I would not wholesale any of those types of species but panthers and vieleds would be a different story. You guys can go ahead and tell me how bad of a person I am for it..........I dont care, it wont bother me

Olimpia

Bravo Harry! THANK YOU for saying that it's not the animals fault, which seems so freaking obvious but people on here still call crosses names, insulting them as if the poor chameleon even knows what's going on. Which is not only absolutely riddiculous but completely unecessary. I've heard individual hybrid panthers called any number of condescending insults more times than I have fingers and toes to count them on.

Even though I dont agree with crossing locales, and now that I have actually been sparked to get more reasoning behind this opinion other than they can pollute "pure" stock etc, it is dumb for one to think the animal itself is bad. From the information I have been collecting it would be better to cross something like Ambanja and Nosy Be rather than Ambanja and Sambava if one is to simulate the seasons in a certain locale. Although!!!!! There is still much more information that can prove even this wrong when looking at it from a standpoint of trying to replicate natural conditions for a certain locale.

I also agree about the info on this forum. There are probably dozens of senior members on here that don't stick to the husbandry "standards" that are constantly pushed for new members. But I bet you that all of them are afraid of saying what it is they do (and works for them) because of the critisism. Which is a shame, because I think we lose information this way. Instead of investigating and trying to push newer, better UV lights like the Megaray ones from Reptile UV, for example, people are too busy stuck recommending the 5.0. While other forums are actively sharing different experiences and husbandry techniques that might be out there but work.

I, for one, have no problem letting people know how I take care of my animals and I have been criticized. Remember the recent breeding thread when I was a "bad keeper" because I dont feel the need to baby my chameleons, I dont feed babies constantly, mist them constantly etc? I dont think anyone should be worried about criticism if what works for them isnt the norm. If it works it works.

 

[pssh]

And to help prove the point that I don't think the cross animals themselves are bad, I have a 50% ambilobe X 25% Sambava X 25% nosy be FEMALE. Why would I have her (especially a female) if I thought the animals themselves are bad?

Lizards are lizards and they don't recieve such care in the wild. Even if you misted once a day and fed them once a day, they still have it better because no bird/predator is going to pluck them out of their tub.

 

[bighutch917]

I say, pop the eggs! If you are a small time breeder who just wants to see the outcome (as you probably will not make any money) then pop most of the eggs. Let a few hatch, adopt/sell them off and demand pictures of them growing up!

As long as crosses stay crosses and dont become pure all of a sudden, I see no problem with it.

That's the problem, a lot of breeders are not aware or in some cases honest about the pedigree of their animals.

Case in point:

I recently purchased two female Ambilobes for about $400 who were sired by a well known red body/blue bar Ambilobe (at least I thought he was) but I recently discovered that the animal was a hybrid. He was more than likely a Tamatave/Nosey Be cross or Ambilobe/Nosey Be cross but DEFINITELY not pedigree. While photographing my Nosey Be breeders I realized that if I crossed my orange/red body breeders with a Nosey Be female that it would probably produce similar animals to that of the chameleon in question. I sent a photo of the sire to a trusted source/vendor who informed me that he had in fact sold the animal to the breeder and that he informed him on multiple occassions that the animal was NOT pedigree. The breeder refused to accept that fact and continued/continues to pawn the animals off as pure red body/blue bar Ambilobes. I have no interest in cross breeding, so it was a waste of money as far as I am concerned.

I guess some will do whatever is deemed necessary to give them that "edge". We see it over and over in the sports world with the use/abuse of steroids. Sad but true.

 

[warpdrive]

I agree that they are very adaptable. Probably the biggest reason those and veileds are easily bred, kept and have proved much more easier than a lot of other species out there.

TexasPantherMan


Combining these two statements, carefully replicating natural conditions for two different locales that are mixed and do live in somewhat different conditions, it would be impossible to keep both the locales in one animal at optimum conditions.

Just because a panther does well with the "endless summer terrarium"(I like how you put that) I feel panthers would be longer lived replicating the natural conditions and seasons. This is impossible when thinking of things such as altitudes, etc, but what we can replicate for one locale cannot be done for a mixed panther if natural conditions are different. Again i could be way off with my thoughts but I like to throw them out there because it keeps the brains churning

Warpdrives comments.


From what I have experienced are that my animals knew winter, summer, outside lighting etc regardless of what was going on in my house. They can even tell the difference in light with my windows completely blocked off from any light getting in. For sometime, besides housing outside, I have blocked my cham room off from the rest of the house and vents so I can make it do whatever I want. I control it with a humidifier and an oil base heater. When housed outside, if it gets too hot, they go to the basement until weather permits me to take them back outside.



We are adamant about starting newbies off with the right lights, caging, feeding etc, everything needed to keep the animal healthy. Why not start them off simulating seasons? IMO its much more healthy for an animal to go through the seasons (regardless if it makes a difference in breeding) rather than the standard 12 on 12 off, 3 mistings a day etc. Its not very hard to simulate the seasons so I dont see a newbie getting overwhelmed with this.



This is where I started getting more into simulating seasons etc. When I got animals that were more dependent on them, even while still keeping panthers.



I am going to have to disagree with this As of yet, and I havent scoured the earth or google, I have not found any information on altitudes or temps for the different locales. What I have found are climate descriptions, annual rainfall and number of dry months for some of the locales.

All of this information comes from "The Panther Chameleon" Color variation, natural history, conservation and captive management. By Gary W. Ferguson, James B. Murphy, Jean-Baptiste Ramanamanjato and Achille P. Raselimanana.

It will go from locality, climate description, annual rainfall MM (in) and Number of dry seasons.

Ile Reunion, Tropical Seasonal, 2500MM (100 in) rainfall, 5 to 6 dry months.

Tamatave, Tropical Wet, 2500MM (100 in) rainfall, 0 dry months.

Ile Ste. Marie, Tropical Wet, 1500MM (60 in) rainfall, 0 dry months.

Maroantsetra, Tropical Wet, 2500MM (100 in) rainfall, 0 dry months.

Sambava, Tropical Wet, 1500MM (60 in) rainfall, 0 dry months.

Diego Suarez, Tropical Sesonal (dry), 1000MM (40 in) rainfall, 7 to 8 dry months.

Ambanja, Tropical Moist, 1500MM (60 in) rainfall, 1 to 2 dry months.

Nosy Be, Tropical Moist, 1500MM (60 in) rainfall, 1 to 2 dry months.

A Sambava and Ambanja do not have the same exact natural conditions. This doesnt even get into altitude, high and low temps, photo period etc. I will try and find those but if someone else can help it would be appreciated

And I say the hobby is bass ackwards because of one of the easiest species to breed goes for some of the highest prices out there and also sell like hot cakes. The other harder species do not sell well and at 100$ I think my prices were well over fair for the tavetana. I lost quite a bit of dough on those but that is not what its about for me. They are in good hands, that is what makes me happy. I would not wholesale any of those types of species but panthers and vieleds would be a different story. You guys can go ahead and tell me how bad of a person I am for it..........I dont care, it wont bother me

Olimpia


Even though I dont agree with crossing locales, and now that I have actually been sparked to get more reasoning behind this opinion other than they can pollute "pure" stock etc, it is dumb for one to think the animal itself is bad. From the information I have been collecting it would be better to cross something like Ambanja and Nosy Be rather than Ambanja and Sambava if one is to simulate the seasons in a certain locale. Although!!!!! There is still much more information that can prove even this wrong when looking at it from a standpoint of trying to replicate natural conditions for a certain locale.



I, for one, have no problem letting people know how I take care of my animals and I have been criticized. Remember the recent breeding thread when I was a "bad keeper" because I dont feel the need to baby my chameleons, I dont feed babies constantly, mist them constantly etc? I dont think anyone should be worried about criticism if what works for them isnt the norm. If it works it works.

Jared, there are flaws in everything you are saying right now. sadly, I don't have the time to post an 8 page reply in order to counter what is stated from you.

but I will take the time to clarify one issue:
no one, not even me has stated that you were or are a bad panther breeder based on the time you gave your babies. in fact, the time you gave was far more then some breeders give and in fact, is all that is required in order to raise them.

what I and some others were trying real hard to explain was, what is the point for someone who wants to breed so badly for the first time, yet doesn't have the time to enjoy the experiance of it all.
nitpic all you want in that thread or this one, but while it might not be exciting to you to see your 500th egg hatch, for this person, it would have been his/her first. why, just why, would someone so excited to see such a wonderful thing do so when they know full well that they will more then likely miss not only that expireance, but many others associated with the first cluth ever for this child?
agree or disagree, it doesn't matter...BECAUSE WE WERE NOT TALKING ABOUT YOU!!!!!! we were talking about that child.

btw, send me a PM so we can discusss what you just posted if, and only if we can be grown ups about this. in return, I'll send you my phone number and explain my thoughts and ideas to you.
please, please don't ask me to type for 6 hours in order to reply to this, because in just 6 hours, I still wouldn't be able to explain everything.

thank you for your time.

your friend,
Harry

 

[Cainschams]

Its more or less me thinking out loud. Trying to get some minds churning. It would be nice for others to share their opinions or ideas on what I have posted. Dont worry everyone, I can handle being told I am wrong

And its my bad, I shouldnt have brought up the other thread. I really do not want to get back into that

 

[warpdrive]

Its more or less me thinking out loud. Trying to get some minds churning. It would be nice for others to share their opinions or ideas on what I have posted. Dont worry everyone, I can handle being told I am wrong

it's not that I'm going to tell you that you are wrong my friend, I would rather you learn that for yourself. it's just you are not looking at this scientificly (but as a hobbist) and basing your findings on things that are not truly relivent, even if you think it is.

now let me churn your brian for a moment...
what if I told you that I did not live in NYC but on the north pole with my chameleons not far from where Santa lives. are you saying that for the next two months my chameleons will NEVER wake up because they know when the sun comes up and when it goes down? and yes, some of my chameleons have or had full view of the windows and the darkness that is outside here on the north pole. (if that is not food for thought, I don't know what is.)

btw, I'm going to start video recording my chameleons sleeping with the sun up, and awake when the sun is down for the next few months...I'll post it here on the forum and discribe why they do such things to show that they truly don't act or behave the way we "think" we do.

Harry