ok, I'll bite. but once again, I don't have the time to go into great detail. while you might not think it would normally take that much time, it takes me far longer then most just to type the two sentances I just typed.
I'm not arguing what they are seeing. what I'm arguing is the reason behind it. you say your chameleons know when the sun come up, and when the sun goes down, regardless if they can see the sun or not. that is what I'm arguing. now if you were stating that your animals had a built in instint that made them understand when the sun came up or went down from the area that they orriginat from, it would be tremendusly hard to prove you wrong. ue to the fact that they might know such things but are still waiting for a bit more outside (outside meaning, visual or auditery) stimulus before they react to sleeping or awaking.
Thanks for clarifying your side of the discussion. Now we can get down to business (at least for this paragraph
) and toss out some ideas. While I cannot ask my chameleons how they can tell when the sun is up and when it is down while having no access to seeing light, I can throw out some thoughts. I do change with the light cycles and do not wait until my animals are telling me I need to do so anymore. Just to clarify before that is twisted up, I have seen my animals bed down accordingly while not seeing any light.
Here are my thoughts. One is atmospheric pressure. Although the sun does not heat the earth uniformly and there are other factors for air pressure such as humidity, altitude, closer or further away to the poles etc. Atmospheric pressure shows a diurnal or semi-diurnal cycle caused by global atmospheric tides. These changes are the most basic in pressure due to the rise and fall of the sun. Animals, I am sure, can sense these changes much more than we can. Seasons change because of the revolution of the earth around the sun along with the tilt of the earths axis. So when the sun is out longer due to the season, the basic pressure change due to the rise and fall of the sun is different than when in winter and the sun is not out as long, for my area at least.
Luckily I am very into astronomy, how planets revolve around stars, the effects of revolutions, etc. or I might not have been able to give (what I feel) a good thought or answer to your question. Hopefully this is not too much of an emotional response for you
but that is not what you are stating. so when you say that you "know" what is going to happen in Florida when it comes to sleep or weather patterns. then you "MUST" know what is going to happen on the north pole. the rules have not changed just because "YOU" think that the example I gave is too extreem.
Now for the part that is irrelevant to the thread, my thoughts and posts, your putting words in my mouth and your being emotional and non scientific about it. I NEVER SAID I KNEW WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IN FLORIDA! Quit twisting my words and putting words in my mouth, Harry. Yes, the north pole scenario is extreme because there is no one keeping chameleons with Chris Kringle.
you are now replying in a way that is from emotion and not science. once again, the rules didn't change, just the location of the animal. so if you still can't grasp that, let's try this...
I have based my thoughts and opinions on scientific facts again and again in this thread. You are the one that cant grasp that or just doesnt want to in order to argue with me. It feels that is all you want to do is argue no matter how off the wall you need to get just to argue.
if the north pole is too extreem, then what about Alaska? once again, if not going from emotion but going from science, will you concide that the panther will be awake for about 12 hours, and be asleep for about 12 hours, regardless of the "true" sunrise or sunset outside, if we are talking about indoor pets with an artifitial environment?
if that is too extreem in your eyes, then what about Quobec? what about Maine? what about NYC? Kentucky? Texas? when does your emotional thoughts end and your scientific research begin? and have you done any research to disprove your thoughts? because I have for the past two years that run across 6 chameleons. 2 of wich could see the sun rise and sun set from indoors.
No I will not coincide with that statement based on what I have observed with my animals. I cant answer what will happen in Alaska or any other state. All I can answer from is the locations I have lived (MD and WV) with my animals and the animals I have kept. It would be nice for some of the other members to reply to the thread but I have a feeling they do not want to get into an endless arguement with someone who will just twist their words, put words in their mouth and argue over the point of just arguing and not basing anything on scientific fact. Its really pointless and after this post I am done unless someone else comes on here with good ideas to discuss not just wanting to argue. The only emotional thoughts is me sitting here completely irritated from your BS. It would be nice if you could post stuff like your first paragraph. The rest of this post is full of nonsense, word twisting and retarded reasons to argue with me.
no, you showed just what emotional responces to the subject of caring for a panther from two diffent locals should be different but like Jannb states for panthers vs Veileds, the care is almost the same. we can always try to tweek it if we want to go to such extreems, but in the end, when it comes to just panthers, you still have to strive to give it at least the minamilest care that it requires or you will run into problems. (once again, I can go into great detail, but I just don't have the time)
How in the hell is this an emotional response?!?! Do I really need to post it again? Well, here you go.
It will go from locality, climate description, annual rainfall MM (in) and Number of dry seasons.
Ile Reunion, Tropical Seasonal, 2500MM (100 in) rainfall, 5 to 6 dry months.
Tamatave, Tropical Wet, 2500MM (100 in) rainfall, 0 dry months.
Ile Ste. Marie, Tropical Wet, 1500MM (60 in) rainfall, 0 dry months.
Maroantsetra, Tropical Wet, 2500MM (100 in) rainfall, 0 dry months.
Sambava, Tropical Wet, 1500MM (60 in) rainfall, 0 dry months.
Diego Suarez, Tropical Sesonal (dry), 1000MM (40 in) rainfall, 7 to 8 dry months.
Ambanja, Tropical Moist, 1500MM (60 in) rainfall, 1 to 2 dry months.
Nosy Be, Tropical Moist, 1500MM (60 in) rainfall, 1 to 2 dry months.
You said.
"but in the case with the difference in panther locals, such drastic differances in tempiture and lighting, as well as rain fall are almost exact.
all because they are all low land jungle chameleons. they just were seperated due to how the earth changed when Maddy broke apart from Africa.
so a sambava can be treated like a ambanja due to the altitude that it lives in is basicly the same, and the rainfall is more or less the same. and the temps and humidity is close enough to be almost the same."
My post proved yours to be wrong. Maybe you are bent out of shape because of that but I backed up my opinion with scientific facts. Maybe you have emotions and science mixed up?
What JannB posted is completely irrelevant to my thoughts and opinions. No offense to her post and it is relevant to the thread. But, she is stating the GENERAL CARE are nearly the same. This has nothing to do with what I am trying to discuss here. GENERAL CARE AND REPLICATING NATURAL CONDITIONS ARE NOT THE SAME THING!!!! Personally I dont think general care is as beneficial to replicating natural conditions..
the above is a good example as to why even an 8 page reply will still not be enough detail for me to post. you clearly are too invested in your ideas of what should be and shouldn't that before learning just how I'm going to show you that you are wrong, you are all ready stating to nit pit it to death.
Im the one nit picking
I agree, now pay me $20 an hour and I'll spend the time and discuss it publicly "on your" time. untill then, I have responcibilitys that I must take care of and have spent far too much of "my" time on this subject already.
LOL!!! 20$ an hour? Nah, how about you discuss it for the fact of not embarrassing yourself? If you posted thoughts like your first paragraph and not multiple paragraphs of BS just for the sake of arguing and word twisting maybe you would have the time to discuss this in a reasonable fashion?
when you put it this way, I agree. we are not thread jacking. but to give it the simplest answer with the shortest reply, the answer in my book is no. it is not harder and in fact, I think we can all agree that I'm as dumb as a rock. yet my first chameleon was a 6 week old panther cross that lived without sickness for just shy of two years before he killed himself from a fall....the sick and crazy fool that he was.
I dont think you are as dumb as a rock. I do think you are trying to argue for the sake of arguing. I like you, Harry. I think you are a nice guy but this is getting old. For this reason I am done arguing. It will only turn out in irritated statements that will not be good for relationships between fellow keepers. I was sad to hear your first animals died. That is a complete bummer for anyone into these animals. Especially something as tragic as a fall resulting in a broken back.
Harry
