jamest0o0
Chameleon Enthusiast
Because some of us prefer the taste of pinky mice
Feeding a pinkie
- Thread starter JoXie411
- Start date
Because some of us prefer the taste of pinky mice
GoodKarma19
Chameleon Enthusiast
Whole prey are an excellent source of natural vitamins when used in moderation (no more than 1-2x per month), and only lead to issues if overfed. As in everything, moderation is key! I can dig up my notes if y'all are interested in the specifics. You can 100% do without them, but I'd rather I rely on synthetic compounds as little as possible when caring for any of my animals. 
nightanole
Chameleon Enthusiast
"over feed you risk gout"
What. I thought gout was from too much uric acid from insect feeders storing too much protein. OP isnt wrong, the vet say low vit A, the easiest way is "meat". Though i hear you can add some egg to dubia diet. Honestly the only vitamin problem i hear about in chams, is vit A. Maybe veg beta-carotene wasnt the proper choice in this case.
JoXie411
Chameleon Enthusiast
I’m interested in seeing them. I tried looking it up up couldn’t find anythingWhole prey are an excellent source of natural vitamins when used in moderation (no more than 1-2x per month), and only lead to issues if overfed. As in everything, moderation is key! I can dig up my notes if y'all are interested in the specifics. You can 100% do without them, but I'd rather I rely on synthetic compounds as little as possible when caring for any of my animals.
GoodKarma19
Chameleon Enthusiast
You bet! I'll get on it when I'm on my way home. 3 more hours of work to do.
And thus I prefer frozen/thawed or pre killed. I always feel a bad when I'm feeding off live, feeling animals. Not to say that I won't do it if necessary, but I feel that it's kinder to the feeder and safer for the predator. Just my 2 cents!
GoodKarma19
Chameleon Enthusiast
Whole prey are an excellent source of natural vitamins when used in moderation (no more than 1-2x per month), and only lead to issues if overfed. As in everything, moderation is key! I can dig up my notes if y'all are interested in the specifics. You can 100% do without them, but I'd rather I rely on synthetic compounds as little as possible when caring for any of my animals.
To elaborate, whole prey items are densely packed with B vitamins, D3, and vitamin A, amongst many other beneficial nutrients. B vitamins, D3, and A tend to be lacking (even completely absent) in the insects we keep as feeders, and adding a single pinkie mouse a month helps to close this nutritional gap. (Aside: my notes are pretty sketchy. I wrote very clear notes on B group vitamins and the D3 cycle, and then wrote, and I quote: "++ vit A & lots of good stuff. Feed x1/mo" Gooooo graveyard notes!
) This was all taken from John Courtney Smith's book "Bio-Activity and the Theory of Wild Re-Creation", and he may very well have gone in greater depth in "Reptile and Amphibian Nutrition" (I havent gotten my hands on that one yet!)Here's a recent thread on the subject, and some additional info to add to the arguement:
JoXie411
Chameleon Enthusiast
To elaborate, whole prey items are densely packed with B vitamins, D3, and vitamin A, amongst many other beneficial nutrients. B vitamins, D3, and A tend to be lacking (even completely absent) in the insects we keep as feeders, and adding a single pinkie mouse a month helps to close this nutritional gap. (Aside: my notes are pretty sketchy. I wrote very clear notes on B group vitamins and the D3 cycle, and then wrote, and I quote: "++ vit A & lots of good stuff. Feed x1/mo" Gooooo graveyard notes!
Here's a recent thread on the subject, and some additional info to add to the arguement:
Thank you for all that. Your grave yard notes are on point
As of right now imelda now has a dead pinkie and about to die moth as pets
cloverthechameleon
Avid Member
If a pinky or bird hatchling came wiggling by a chameleon in the wild, gurantee thats dinner. Adult Veileds, Panther males, parsons or any larger species definetly pray on small mammals in the wild. Doesnt make up a large portion of their diet, but it does make up a portion. This method used to be frowned uppon by most keepers and still is by some. But some keepers are now using this method and are seeing great results, pinkies are loaded with calcium and fat soluble vitamins. Listen to the chameleon breeder podcast, experienced keepers are seeing posituve results. I believe every keeper should be proactive and be listening to Bill strands podcast so many great guests with so much experience!! I would recommend LIVE pinky mice, not frozen fuzzies tho. Let us know if you notice any changes. 1 live pinky 1 time per month is what most people are doing.
Mammalian organ and muscle meats contain uric acid. Moderation will be important to avoid gout. I'm not saying "don't" just"be very careful". Bon appetite.
GoodKarma19
Chameleon Enthusiast
Could be entirely coincidental, but my little Lily girl has shown considerable improvement to her overall demeanor and appetite since I fed her a (f/t) pinky mouse last Thursday. I'm sure live would be better (it always is), but I haven't quite mustered the nerve (or found a local supplier).
I agree, however, that pinkies/whole prey shouldn't be given more frequently than once a month, maybe twice tops.
I agree, however, that pinkies/whole prey shouldn't be given more frequently than once a month, maybe twice tops.
jagmom98
Established Member
sick!!
GoodKarma19
Chameleon Enthusiast
Lily has been on 1 f/t pinky ~ once a month since May (so, 4 pinkies total so far), and I've seen nothing but positive improvements in her. Can this be directly attributed to the addition of small pinky mice? Unlikely - many small husbandry tweaks have been made. Can chams do without? Absolutely! But I believe in providing the widest variety of prey items possible, something that is somewhat more difficult to manage in Canada with the limited insect availability (no roaches, stick insects, milipedes... at least not in readily available, legal channels!).
Whatever works for your individual animal, I figure!
You might like to read this thread to see what Dayna, (a vet BTW) on this forum aka ferritinmyshoes has to say...
https://www.chameleonforums.com/threads/chams-eat-mice.54329/page-2
https://www.chameleonforums.com/threads/chams-eat-mice.54329/page-2
jamest0o0
Chameleon Enthusiast
Personally, if someone is going to feed mice, fuzzies and older would be better IMO for the higher vitamin content. The lower calcium and protein can be more easily managed through supplementation anyway.
Regarding being against it because it is animal protein and causes gout though idk... I'm obviously no expert with this, but roaches store uric acid, yet we feed them off, and apparently crickets are high in gout causing purines as well. So why would it matter if it is insect or animal protein? Seafood like lobster I think can cause gout flare ups, yet we feed roaches which are distantly related so I can't imagine their nutrient content could be extremely different?
Found this
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23633284
Sorry bad grammar, I'm tired and in a rush to sleep lol
AnamCara
Chameleon Enthusiast
Interesting--consudering supers and mealeorms are frowned upon being fed regularly.
Also -- "cricket nymphs are protein-rich and purine-rich and cannot be recommended for people with hyperuricemia or gout."
jamest0o0
Chameleon Enthusiast
Interesting--consudering supers and mealeorms are frowned upon being fed regularly.
Also -- "cricket nymphs are protein-rich and purine-rich and cannot be recommended for people with hyperuricemia or gout."
Supers are mainly a problem with addiction, they hunger strike for them. The fat probably isn't as bad as people make it out to be in moderation, though I'm sure a lean animal like a cham benefits from higher protein items. Mealworms imo aren't as bad as people make them out to be, but also not really worth buying. Supers are a good replacement for mealworms.
From what I've read cockroaches store more uric acid if fed high protein diets. What do you feed your roaches?
There is also a bacteria in their system that breaks down the uric acid when, I think, nitrogen is needed. If this bacteria breaks down uric acid maybe it has an affect on it all?
Mice pups I would think have a high fat diet which I would think predisposes them to high uric acid content..if my thinking is right.
Do you know what the levels are in a mouse pup?
I think roaches levels are around 15. I'm not sure if crickets are the same?
There is also a bacteria in their system that breaks down the uric acid when, I think, nitrogen is needed. If this bacteria breaks down uric acid maybe it has an affect on it all?
Mice pups I would think have a high fat diet which I would think predisposes them to high uric acid content..if my thinking is right.
Do you know what the levels are in a mouse pup?
I think roaches levels are around 15. I'm not sure if crickets are the same?
GoodKarma19
Chameleon Enthusiast
Interesting read! Thank you for sharing.
However, she cautions against frequent feedings (as do I!), not once or twice monthly usage. Of course, I'd never recommend pinkies as a staple - chams aren't built to handle that kind of animal protein in those amounts! I see no harm in occasional offerings, though, and have read several (admittedly largely anecdotal) accounts of beneficial effects - particularly in adult males, and females post laying. My girl is a healthy little lady by all accounts, and while I wont be going around recommending pinkies to everyone it seems to be working for me and I'm pleased with Lily's progress.Moderation in all things!
