Chams eat mice?

[camimom]

I only have a fewm meals in there, I know they arent great for him, but well hes not eating them anyway. but I only have immediate access to crix and meals that are small enough for him to eat. my local (one and only store that sells cham food) sells no flies, and the other worm types they have are too big.
I've been looking for live plants, but the 2 stores that sell plants, walmart and lowes, don't have any appropriate ones. I live in the panhandle of MD and we have like nothing for shopping. I'm going to a diff place tomorrow, so hopefully i can find some new food and a plant.
He does have plenty of places to hide though, Until I find a live plant i put some fake flowers and vines and twigs all over the cage, but he doesn't get stressed easily, he loves to come out and chill on my finger (no I dont make him do it, when i go in to clean and take out dead things he comes down and climbs on my hand)
i will def add your suggestions in for gutloading better.
Yes this is my first cham, I saw him at a store, and went home and did lots of research. Then went back and bought everything needed.
I did post pics, in fact, my avatar is a pic of him!

look for my thread, pics of my new addition, there are some there.

 

[ChameleonsInMyHouse]

i shall donate my two cents.
as more experienced and knowledge is gained, better understandings are obtained as well.

when i first started i thought it would be beneficial for chameleons to eat feeder lizards and rodents. as i grew more in the hobby, i learned about the topic of high fat and protein and the risks they bring, but i also learned the pro of using it with malnourished and vitamin deficient chameleons. at the point, it was still not a question of me using it, or a suggestion for other keepers to use.

now that i i am starting to get into breeding, a new pro has been introduced to me. that a pinky or fuzzy is a benefit post or pre gestation. i have given my kiwi her first pinky today as i have mated her yesterday, and want her to be tip top and not defficient in the gestation. this is not something that i recommened unless for this reason or for the use of malnutroushment.

you really need to ask yourself. is there a point and a benefit, or a good reasoning in general to feed rodent or lizard (CB of course), or are you just doing it to to it? if so that is the wrong reason and you will reap consequences if done for leisure and the wrong reasons.

 

[camimom]

I don't really have a reason to do it, I mainly started the thread cuz I saw a youtube video of a huge veiled eating one and I was curious.

 

[Ekaj13]

I wouldn't use rodents as feeders because I love little furry things and I don't believe it is necessary for chameleons diets. However I'm sure many chameleons eat rodents and birds.

 

[fluxlizard]

Most food items aren't bad if fed in moderation and appropriate quantity. The large species who take mice will surely take small birds or chicks, lizards, etc in the wild on occasion. I seriously doubt a mouse now and again is going to make any otherwise normally fed chameleon suddenly take on dangerous amounts of fat. I think personally for me the larger question is physical damage a mouse can do to a chameleon with it's mouse teeth, and then consideration for the poor mouse.

Similarly, a healthy chameleon isn't going to be impacted by eating a meal of mealworms now and again unless the chameleon already has other problems. Chameleons are insectivores- dealing with chitonous exoskeletons is what they do for a living, and what they have done for countless millenia. They will eat all sorts of insects in the wild, including hard shelled beetles and the like. If your chameleon gets impacted from mealworms, he's got serious problems before he ever ate them.

Ferguson bred at least 5 generations of panther chameleons in the lab on crickets and mealworms. He chose to use the mealworms alongside the crickets because they gutloaded calcium much better- calcium content was therefore higher in mealworms than the crickets.

When considering diet, you have to consider the whole big picture, not just each food item as if it were the only food item ever offered.

For example- spinach (or cabbage, etc) is often said to be a no no for iguanas because if that is all they were to eat, they would not absorb enough calcium because of the calcium binders in the spinach. Yet if offered occasionally, it is a rich source of other vitamins and minerals and will have such a tiny effect on total calcium absorbed (in fact none at all if other items are higher in calcium or calcium is otherwise supplemented) that the pros of occasional use outweigh the cons. Yet most self-taught hobbyiests insist spinach never be used because for some reason hobbyiests look at the merits of each food item as if it were the entire diet, rather what they can provide if offered as a small percentage of the diet.

In my opinion the principles with vertebrate prey are similar. Occasional use will provide chameleons with relatively safe delivery of some nutrients not otherwise easily available in a 100% insect diet (vit a and d springs to mind, but calcium and others are there also).

Is vertebrate prey essential? Certainly not for a "pet" chameleon of any species. But to go 10 generations for some species? I don't know- maybe not, but on the other hand it might be helpful to offer one from time to time.

Just a thought.

 

[ataraxia]

are green anoles a native species to yemen?? i could be wrong but i dont think so. not a mimic situation in my eyes. personally im against feeding a live animal to another. you box in a defenseless animal that has no place to run or evade in with a armed animal killing machine. when i saw that youtube vid of that frog eatting that veiled....

 

[NWD]

Mice

From what I understand a newborn mouse can be a beneficial occasional treat. I think the biggest concern would be choking but I have never heard of it happening.

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

This discussion has gone on way too long without anyone bringing up the health effects caused by using mice, regardless of the ethics involved. Chameleons are not carnivores, they are insectivores. A diet too high in animal proteins (from pinkies or dog/cat food gutload) leads to kidney failure and gout (which is very painful and potentially fatal) because they are not supposed to have them. Some veileds like to eat veggies (collard greens, mustard greens, etc.) so you could use those for variety if that's what you're looking for. My guy loves his veggies and runs over to eat them almost immediately. Or you can try silkworms, hornworms, butterwrms, superworms, (not mealworms), dubia roaches, or mantises. All of those are good feeders for variety. Stick to bugs and greens! If you are gutloading properly and providing adequate UVB you will get WAY more calcium that way than feeding an occasional mouse that will have far more detrimental effects than any other feeder with similar calcium levels. There is absolutely no reason to use mice or other vertebrates for insectivores in my opinion.

You can find evidence of people feeding pinkies on the internet (of course, what can't you find on the internet?!), but who's to say they have any idea what they're doing at all? Their chams may die a few months afterward from everything else that's probably wrong with their husbandry practices too. Pinkies/mice do not offer benefits, only risks. It's definitely not recommended.

 

[NWD]

Ahahahaha

I'm sorry I just saw the post above me seriously? Lol it's nature....u don't have any problem feeding insects to ur cham do u? Are those not a living thing? Oh wait only cute creatures matter. And what's the difference between feeding live and killing it then eating it....the end result is the same. Maybe u should just try having a bunny they are vegetarians I mean chams are way to vicious hell they are canabalistic they would eat their own children givin the opportunity.

 

[jojackson]

Consideration, commonsense, and moderation in all things!

Difference between feeding live and killing first is consideration for the lizard aswell NWD
Trapped living things with teeth and claws fight back. Lizards dont tackle something they cant kill easily,
even reptiles have a sense of self preservation.
Ive seen captive snakes literally chewed to the bone by live rodents left in with them, scarring on wild specimens attest to the fact that prey species can and do fight back. Even monitor species are reluctant to tackle some things you might think they would take down easily.
Chams are not designed for killing anything other than insect prey.
Generally speaking, respect for life is not a bad thing, feeding live is sometimes ness, but most often not.
It may be 'natural', but then captivity is not anyway.

P.S be interested to see evidence that rodent species small enough to be consumed find their way to tree tops, or for that matter, documented instances of chams eating birds and mice in nature (or fish), and how often.

 

[NWD]

To be clear

I was talking about ataraxias post

 

[melric]

Consideration, commonsense, and moderation in all things!

Difference between feeding live and killing first is consideration for the lizard aswell NWD
Trapped living things with teeth and claws fight back. Lizards dont tackle something they cant kill easily,
even reptiles have a sense of self preservation.
Ive seen captive snakes literally chewed to the bone by live rodents left in with them, scarring on wild specimens attest to the fact that prey species can and do fight back. Even monitor species are reluctant to tackle some things you might think they would take down easily.
Chams are not designed for killing anything other than insect prey.
Generally speaking, respect for life is not a bad thing, feeding live is sometimes ness, but most often not.
It may be 'natural', but then captivity is not anyway.

P.S be interested to see evidence that rodent species small enough to be consumed find their way to tree tops, or for that matter, documented instances of chams eating birds and mice in nature (or fish), and how often.

I agree. As far as your PS part though I think Hawaii, besides the obvious, didn't want wild Veiled's because they were eating this tiny bird they have on the islands.

 

[NWD]

Okay

A pinky...idk if uv ever encountered one before cannot hurt a cham and even if u could I'm sure the ppl who do this watch....my snakes eat mice all the time and they always win....just sayin

 

[NWD]

Oh and

If they are not designed too eat anything besides insects why do they eat other things so easily they obviously can go to YouTube lol ur absolutely right they don't tackle anything they can't handle and they choose to eat it lol I have some beardiesbthat won't touch mice and some that will. Also bigger chams eat smaller chams in the wild and im sure a hungry cham would eat mice it Bby birds if they had the opportunity.

 

[jojackson]

A pinky...idk if uv ever encountered one before cannot hurt a cham and even if u could I'm sure the ppl who do this watch....my snakes eat mice all the time and they always win....just sayin

A pinky no, not much in the way of teeth, but anything bigger yes.

As far as your PS part though I think Hawaii, besides the obvious, didn't want wild Veiled's because they were eating this tiny bird they have on the islands.

But that tiny bird (humming bird I expect) lives in Hawaii, not yemen.
Perhaps larger species elsewhere do, but this is not relevant to the op who has a veiled.
Because something is possible does not equate to a good idea.

NWD, what harm can a smaller cham do a larger one? Things eat weird things on youtube because most folk who post those vids are sadistic morons.

Consideration, commonsense, and moderation in all things!

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

A pinky...idk if uv ever encountered one before cannot hurt a cham and even if u could I'm sure the ppl who do this watch....my snakes eat mice all the time and they always win....just sayin

Snaks do not win all the time. This happens far more often than you probably think it does.

If they are not designed too eat anything besides insects why do they eat other things so easily they obviously can go to YouTube lol ur absolutely right they don't tackle anything they can't handle and they choose to eat it lol I have some beardiesbthat won't touch mice and some that will. Also bigger chams eat smaller chams in the wild and im sure a hungry cham would eat mice it Bby birds if they had the opportunity.

Surely you can recognize the difference between what an animal does in the wild naturally versus what an animal does when put in a cage with another animal that can't escape it where it normally would be able to in the wild, if they would even ever be in contact with each other in the wild anyway. When you manipulate a situation you can make a lot of very unnatural things happen. Thus, youtube's very successful popularity... That doesn't mean it is a better thing for either animal involved! Consider the health effects it has. Trust me when I tell you that chameleons as insectivores are not supposed to have too many animal proteins unless you want kidney failure.

 

[NWD]

Well

As far as I have ever heard ppl feed pinkies so a bigger mouse is not relevant. Also im sure their has been occasions in the wild where a cham has stumbled across an unattended birds nest and had a field day. I'm not saying it has happened but im saying it's very probable. Also all this talk of how it's gonna hurt them I havnt seen any posts or reports of death occurring from pinky feeding and I have seen many ppl feed them and have read it in chameleon books Sooooo provide some evidence of it's horrible dangers. In moderation it seems to be fine I don't feed my chams mice because my snakes eat them all but I don't think the occasional pinky would Hurt a cham.

 

[camimom]

Yea, I wasnt talking about pinky mice. i was talking about the white fully grown mice you, see at pet shops for pets, like the fancy mice or w.e, I saw a huge veiled eat one on youtube. there are some very intersting comments on this thread, Seems I started a big thing. LOL

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

(Everyone else, please forgive my little rant that is about to occur...)

NWD - Okay well then please continue to ignore my warning about what happens to chams with too much animal protein in their diets since you apparently are the expert here. Nevermind the fact that I have seen it personally and have talked with several, very experienced veterinarians who have seen it also. Are you familiar with Dr. Doug Mader? He WROTE the reptile medicine and surgery textbook. I work with a zoo boarded vet that worked with him on multiple studies involving THIS concept. If you would like to get info from actual reputable sources instead of youtube then perhaps you should listen to me and the others who have said it's not advised, for a reason. No, one or two pinkies will not kill your cham, but in the long term it will cause detrimental health effects. You do what you want, I obviously can't stop you. But I'm at least going to advise you against it and tell you why.

And camimom - I would never attempt to feed a full grown mouse for reasons I've already stated and I can guarantee you that if that mouse wasn't grabbed by the head it would turn around and seriously hurt a cham if given the chance. Not worth it imo.

I'm done now.

 

[NWD]

Yeah I do recognize lol

Maybe not always but the exception is not the rule and I bet a pinky has never beat a snake lol also ppl should watch snakes eating bigger rodents just in case. Also idk about ur chams but sticking something in their cage doesn't mean ur forcing it, my chams either eat something or doesn't quite picky actually.