Don't know how to word this title...

SoCaliSon

New Member
Possibly infertile Clutch...Mate Her?

Okay... Well my Female Nosy Be that was having the eye issues is doing a lot better, and her eyes are no longer closing. This morning I noticed that she was displaying some darker colors than her normal Peachy shade, and her gut was looking kind of "eggy"... I was curious if she had started to develop an infertile clutch so I showed her to Elwood and she did not act unreceptive, I am wondering if she is starting to cycle a clutch of eggs, and if I should try to mate them tonight to avoid having her cycle an infertile clutch. She has not been digging in her bin at all. I imagine if she was too far along she would have shown gravid for him. Could it be too late if she is cycling eggs? I was planning on waiting until next year to make sure she is healthy, and give me time to work with the buns that are already in the oven. But as some of my Veiled eggs were no good, I have 26 left:(, I could definately handle another clutch of panthers. The thing I was most worried about is her health. I was going to give her several months to make it to tip top shape... She does appear to be in great shape at the moment, healthy and active. Regardless, aside from the actual mating interaction, If she produced an infertile clutch it would take the same toll as a fertile one, Correct? I would hate to have her go through the process for nothing. What would you do? Thanks Guys!

~Joe
 
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Dean Pulcini

Avid Member
I don't think it matters if the first clutch is infertile mating them wont help. The first clutch after mating is sometimes infertile if its her first clutch ever. And as far as copulation goes I let them do it every 6 months as not to put a heavy burden on the female or even once a year due to there ability to retain sperm.
 

SoCaliSon

New Member
Thanks Dean,

The hard part is I am not sure if she is Gravid, I am guessing if she is, she is in the very early stages as she is not shunning the precense of the male. She may have been dark for another reason. So if she is beggining to cycle eggs it is probably to late to get them fertilized?

Interesting about there first clutch ever being infertile. My Veiled layed her first clutch about a month back, and sense then of the 46, 26 are looking plump and white, and the others were disposed of, as they collapsed and started rotting. I felt this was a high rate of loss for me doing everything by the book. So I should exect to next clutch to more Viable?

Thanks for your Help,
Joe
 

ColorCham427

Avid Member
Ovulating...hmmm... unfertilized eggs are kind of sticky and clump together and are hard for them to pass. If ANYTHING... get her to mate to fertilize her eggs and most importantly, if for some reason the male doesnt wana mate... mate her with another locale or any other matured panther, even if you have to cross breed to save her life. I've just experienced this and I recently recieved this information from a highly educated person who specializes in breeding the Panther Chameleon. My poor female Ambilobe became egg bound and recently died. Sometimes this can occur, but why risk her life???

-Brian
 

Nicodemayo

Avid Member
Ovulating...hmmm... unfertilized eggs are kind of sticky and clump together and are hard for them to pass. If ANYTHING... get her to mate to fertilize her eggs and most importantly, if for some reason the male doesnt wana mate... mate her with another locale or any other matured panther, even if you have to cross breed to save her life. I've just experienced this and I recently recieved this information from a highly educated person who specializes in breeding the Panther Chameleon. My poor female Ambilobe became egg bound and recently died. Sometimes this can occur, but why risk her life???

-Brian
who is this person you speak of that told you this?
 

SoCaliSon

New Member
Ovulating...hmmm... unfertilized eggs are kind of sticky and clump together and are hard for them to pass. If ANYTHING... get her to mate to fertilize her eggs and most importantly, if for some reason the male doesnt wana mate... mate her with another locale or any other matured panther, even if you have to cross breed to save her life. I've just experienced this and I recently recieved this information from a highly educated person who specializes in breeding the Panther Chameleon. My poor female Ambilobe became egg bound and recently died. Sometimes this can occur, but why risk her life???

-Brian
Never heard that before... I do not want to cross her line with anything. I am already working with a Hybrid line, and I purchased her specifically cause of her her Nosy Be bloodline, to try my hand and keeping a true bloodline. With the theory of sperm retention, If I crossed bred her, I would never be sure that future clutches from her would be 100% Blue. Mating her to anything but a True Blue Nosy is out of the question in my book... Unless of course like you say, her life is at risk... But I don't think that is the case. As far as I know, as long as you handle everything correctly, and provide a laying bin, She should be able to pass infertile eggs just as they do fertile eggs. Anyone else care to comment on that? Thanks for your input ColorCham:)

~Joe
 

SoCaliSon

New Member
Dillema!!!!

I don't know what I should do...

Reasons I wasn't going to Mate her until next year:

1.She is recovering from having minor eye issues that appear to have cleared up in the last week.

2. I didn't want to overwhelm myself. This is not as much of a concern anymore as I lost most of the eggs I was planning on hatching at the beggining of 2009. I have assessed my capapbilities as far as the time line would go and I know I will have space and resources for her babies if they do come.

Why I am contimplating letting her mate now:

She is getting plumper and darker, and I am afraid she may be cycling an infertile clutch. She does not act gravid with the male. If she is going to produce a clutch, Might as well try to make it fertile, right? If it cycling can it still be fertilized?

Considering this, I think I am going to attempt a mating this evening. I think it would be worth a shot getting those suckers fertilized before they are laid, cause it appears she is going to be laying eggs regardless. WIll also give me a chance to observe Elwoods behavior with the Ladies, he has never been exposed to a female, until I showed her to him this morning.

What do you think? Your thoughts and input are uch appreciated.
Sorry, I thought a redundant post might get me some input:D

~Joe
 

Vegas Chad

Avid Member
If the eggs are as far along as you think mating, I doubt will do anything at this point. I have had females cycle infertile eggs the same as fertile eggs… The infertile ones look the same as the good ones (for the most part) however after some time passes they begin to mold and get tossed out. You can usually guess if they are good or not right out the shoot, if they look clear, soft, odd shape ECT, then expect them to be bad… However most of the time it still looks like it could be a viable egg, no way to tell for sure so cook them all until 100% bad.
If your female is getting over a health issue, has eggs that are on the way anyway I would not mate her. To me this would put extra stress on the animal than need be. Also if you are not in a position to care for potential offspring then why try it? *shrug* its up to you… Honestly I don’t think it will matter either way…
 

joefarah

New Member
Hey Joe,

I agree that if she is already looking gravid and indeed is, then it's too late to fertilze those eggs. Fertilization takes place as the eggs pass from the ovaries down the oviducts and through the waiting sperm. I don't think you could get those eggs fertilized at this point. I'd be focusing on nutrition, lighting, hydration,low stress for her, ect...

Good luck man. I hope she makes it ok.
 

SoCaliSon

New Member
Thanks Chad and Joe...Just the response I was looking for. It is not that I won't be able to handle potential offspring... I take everything into account when planning for babies(which reminds me I need to get those cultures from you Chad), and wouldn't even consider mating her if I wasn't sure I could care for the babies properly. The health issue was my main concern, and I think that is the deciding factor here.

I am going to give her a few more months... Let her lay the infertile clutch when ready, and mate her when I feel comfortable that her health is 100%. I over analyze I believe... I should have just stuck with my original plan of waiting. I have been impressed with her improvement from the eye issues, but in case she is still working her way through it in some way, I do not want to induce more stress and push her back a step. Thanks for helping me through the indecision... Asking here is always a good idea.

Thanks, BEERS!..I mean CHEERS!!! ahhh finally friggin Friday!
Joe
 
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