Cohabitation of a chameleon and a Phelsuma

[Carlton]

However, this doesn't stop me from at least getting some infos and maybe trying it out on my own. There is also a purpose why i posted this thread HERE and not in the General section: i don't want too many newbies read this and understand wrongly what i am trying to do, because we all know that new persons getting chameleons try bad mix of animals sometimes.

Ah, interesting idea to post where you did to avoid newbie misunderstandings! Very clever.

I think we agree that "trying it" under careful observation by someone who knows both species well isn't impossible. The reason for trying it isn't just because you don't want to commit more space to yet another cage. I know I've had some surprises from chams who didn't seem to read the rule book. I housed a male deremensis and a male fischeri together in a very large cage. Started off by accident but ended up being no problem for either one. Would I expect the same reaction from another similar pair? Not at all. This was one interesting situation I had the pleasure to observe.

I often wonder how much of a cham's reaction to other animals is learned behavior (complete indifference from a wc animal who already knows geckos aren't food or a threat) versus instinctive (a cbb animal reacting to a gecko with alarm or predation). But again, a restricted captive situation could very well distort a cham's behavior into a response that isn't appropriate.

 

[morpheon]

touché! You provide a very good point. One that I have a hard time arguing with.

I do have a concern with the word trivial that was used. When thinking of the word trivial I think of "Very little importance or value". The fact that one animal can kill the other is definitely not trivial at least not in my opinion. It has been enough for me to resist the urge.

At the same time. I am not one that is afraid to try something new or "different". Not all my methods are the norm. I feel I need to make the augment to make it clear that is a big risk.

I respect everyones opinions but I like to put mine out there. I am not one to disrespect anyone so I hope I am not coming off that way.

1) I also have difficulties arguying with my point, and just answering to it is still hard haha. I can't pretend that it is exactly the same thing, even though they are obviously related. I'll have to keep thinking about it! As i said, my "experience" isn't done yet and i have no idea if i'll ever do it or not.

2) About the word "trivial", i would like to let you know that i am a French person, so my use of this word may be a little off. However, my goal was to point out to the "over-well known fact" that chameleons eat other lizards. I think that anybody with over 400 posts on this forum, 2 green bubbles of reputation and the setup i have for my chameleon (see my signature) must know that fact! In fact, i think the quarter of what i know is far enough to know that fact with a 100% rate!

3) I am not here to judge if it is right or not to do different or less commun things in chameleon husbandry. However, your use of the word "risk" is very good and this is exactly what is scaring me. As a person who do care for any living animal, i ABSOLUTELY do not want to take a too big risk and let a Phelsuma die for no reason or because the risk was too high. This is why i am trying to gather as much information as i can.

4) Your opinion is welcome and i will be gladly be reading it. Also, i would appreciate your story with the Phelsuma as it may be enlightful to me.

 

[morpheon]

Ah, interesting idea to post where you did to avoid newbie misunderstandings! Very clever.

I think we agree that "trying it" under careful observation by someone who knows both species well isn't impossible. The reason for trying it isn't just because you don't want to commit more space to yet another cage. I know I've had some surprises from chams who didn't seem to read the rule book. I housed a male deremensis and a male fischeri together in a very large cage. Started off by accident but ended up being no problem for either one. Would I expect the same reaction from another similar pair? Not at all. This was one interesting situation I had the pleasure to observe.

I often wonder how much of a cham's reaction to other animals is learned behavior (complete indifference from a wc animal who already knows geckos aren't food or a threat) versus instinctive (a cbb animal reacting to a gecko with alarm or predation). But again, a restricted captive situation could very well distort a cham's behavior into a response that isn't appropriate.

The room is definately not an issue so far. In the worst case, the visitor<s bedroom will just end up in a chameleon (and Phelsuma maybe) room and the visitors will have to sleep on the floor of the living room haha!

Your questions Carlton about learned vs instinctive behaviors are very interesting and i would love to investigate them. However, im sure you understand that i will probably never be able to do it!

My goal here is to get some infos and feedbacks before trying something a bit crazy. This way, i ll be more prepared that if something would happen "by mistake". It may not be perfection, i might never be able to generalize this to a whole species of chameleon, but if i can add a little something to the chameleon world, i ll be happy!

 

[Monkeykungphu]

Have you thought about placing a screen divider between the the phelsuma & the chameleon to see what their reactions would be to eachother before you just dropped them in a cage together with no seperation?

 

[morpheon]

Have you thought about placing a screen divider between the the phelsuma & the chameleon to see what their reactions would be to eachother before you just dropped them in a cage together with no seperation?

I will be trying something like that, since i have never seen my chameleon behave in the presence of any other reptile. Thank you for asking.

 

[Julirs]

Chameleons studied in the wild are not hanging out in "herds" of their own kind nor are they found hanging out with other lizards (well, maybe in the short time before the lizard becomes a meal). So......to me this is just another case of "Let me see if I can do it."

I too am interested in the "why". Are you bored? Do you enjoy potential disaster? Do you like danger? Bragging rights? Proving people wrong?

And then, what does it prove? You may just have a disinterested couple of lizards. The fact that they "could" proves nothing. Too many variables.

 

[morpheon]

In fact, chameleons have been studied in the wild and some of them are known to live in groups, even up to a chameleon per meter square : Furcifer pardalis (R. Tremper, pers.com), lateralis (W. Schmidt, 1985), Chamaeleo (Trioceros) affinis (Necas, 1995), bitaeniatus (Bustard, 1996), Hoehnelii (Hebrard 1983, Hebrard & Madsen 1984, Toxopeus et al 1988), Chamaeleo calyptratus (Necas, 1990, 1991, 1995), Bradypodion thamobates (Langerwerf 1992, Raw 1976). Also, some of them are known to form permanent couples, like Chamaeleo (Trioceros) Hoehnelii (Hebrard 1983, Hebrard et Madsen 1984, Toxepeus et al 1988).

Also, Julirs, if you refer to the previous posts in this topic, trying to make two different animals live together in the same enclosure can be considered as very close to just having a wild animal live in a single enclosure. Otherwise, why would we have wild animals live in our house if we know they can be fine in Madagascar? Why can't i try to bring some new information to the world just like some of the first breeders did when nothing was known about chameleon husbandry??

And what if i succeed?? No, i won't be able to generalize, i agree with everyone who says that. But how do you think people came up with good husbandry knowledge if they started with the fact that "even if they succeed it won't be useful". This way to think is wrong because by adding one story to another to another to another, you end up by getting enough information to get correlations. With the correlations it is possible to get CONCLUSIONS. Now please, stop telling me that "it is useless", because with this kind of thinking we would know NOTHING about chameleons at this moment.

Now, why do i want to do that? Because out of 25 years of living on Earth, i have been studying 20 years (and i'm not done yet!). I am a curious mind and bringing new infos, trying hypothesis and proving or disproving them is what has kept me at school for so long. You may agree or not with it, but the roots of every science is directly linked to that.

I would also appreciate that you keep your accusations and disrespectful comments for yourself (i am refering to the "enjoying potential disaster, bragging right and proving people wrong"). So far i have done NOTHING WRONG. I have only been collecting data. I didn't know this was something bad. Also, even if i did, this is my right, and if i was enjoying potential disaster, i wouldn't take time to document every little bit of information i can to AVOID DISASTER.

Furthermore, tell me, what is wrong with the "let me see if i can do it" statement?? I am doing my hmoeworks before trying something that can potentially be harmful, and i have not yet done it. The World has been built upon risk of failure and damage and i am doing my best to reduce as much as possible the risk of getting a living animal hurt. If we couldn't try new things, where would we be at this moment??

I must admit Julirs that i am quite offended by your post. I was expecting something more respectful from you and i wish you would have taken time to read everything that has been written in this post prior to posting accusations and trying to categorize me.

I would also add that i tried my best to remain polite with you, even if i feel attacked. If i have not successfuly remained respectful, i apologize and this was not my intention.

 

[Julirs]

Morpheon-how long have you been keeping chameleons?

 

[VeiledOwner87]

I have seen a chameleon eat a day gecko...

i second that, was it a video on youtube by any chance? i've been looking for that.

 

[morpheon]

What does it change Julirs? How much experience did the first owners of chameleons in the World have when they had their first chameleon??

Instead of attacking me and getting personal, I would APPRECIATE that you answer my comments and not turn it out to the PRESUME weaknesses that i may have.

And for your information, i have been keeping a chameleon for a year now. I would also add that scientifically wise, experience is not correlated to knowledge. However, reading is. This is the root of the school system that is worldwide and mostly based on READING and not direct experience. Now if you want to be useful, i would let you ask: for how long have I been reading?? To this question, i would answer: over 3 hours a day for the last 8 months or so.

But then again, what is the link to this initial post?? I think this is an off-subject post and i still expect apologizes from you.

 

[VeiledOwner87]

you usually see this crap in zoos, and too be honest, i dont know why they keep easy stressed animals in a zoo period. julirs is right, in the wild, chams are usually always found solo. unless the are about to snype a meal, they are courting, or defending (their territory or against a preditor), there are no such things as chameleon herds unless it is your own personal collection lol. but back to the topic. its trial and error, and i realy dont care how experienced you are, it doesnt take a genius to know its a disaster waiting to happen. a stupid move like this could wipe out expensive and treasured show animals, a stupid move like this that somehow works, boosts up an ego that makes one forget that every animal is different and every outcome could potentionaly be a fatal move. jmo.

 

[FFSTRescue]

You could gather 1,000 stories of people keeping different antagonistic species together, but it is going to depend on the primary predator and whether it "decides" it is going to attempt to eat the questionable prey with which it is cohabitating, and when it makes that decision and if that decision changes. Instinct kicks in and there is not often a definite pattern, so your studies of this subject will probably lead to inconclusive results.

 

[sgvreptiles]

Im keeping a brookesia superciliaris and a pair of Phelsuma modesta leiogaster together. With no problems so far.

 

[Julirs]

Whoa. I was not trying at all to be rude. I was asking questions and I do apologize if it came accross that I was attacking you. Those were just the questions that came to my mind. I do not know you, you do not know me-again-this is what happens when people are "conversing" through type.
Natural habitat does not equal captivity.
Scientifically wise experience is not correlated to knowledge-WHAT? WHAT? My Biology Degree and my experience make me want to argue with you.

 

[morpheon]

you usually see this crap in zoos, and too be honest, i dont know why they keep easy stressed animals in a zoo period. julirs is right, in the wild, chams are usually always found solo. unless the are about to snype a meal, they are courting, or defending (their territory or against a preditor), there are no such things as chameleon herds unless it is your own personal collection lol. but back to the topic. its trial and error, and i realy dont care how experienced you are, it doesnt take a genius to know its a disaster waiting to happen. a stupid move like this could wipe out expensive and treasured show animals, a stupid move like this that somehow works, boosts up an ego that makes one forget that every animal is different and every outcome could potentionaly be a fatal move. jmo.

On what do you base what you say??

1) i proved that scientist did report chameleons living in herds. It's hard to argue with that.

2) I listed three stories that report chameleons cohabiting with phelsumas and no problem has occured yet. Then how can you claim that it is a disaster waiting to happen??

3) Who are you to say that it is a stupid move??? Who did give you the rights to call me stupid by saying that what i am considering is stupid??? I would add that by definition someone who does stupid moves is indeed stupid. You are then directly saying that i am stupid.

To your post, i answer that you haven't done half of the reading i have done and that you have nothing but "commun beliefs" to support your claims. Compared to the scientific facts i have brought, you don't weight much.

PS: I also expect apologizes from you too.

 

[Cainschams]

In fact, chameleons have been studied in the wild and some of them are known to live in groups, even up to a chameleon per meter square : Furcifer pardalis (R. Tremper, pers.com), lateralis (W. Schmidt, 1985), Chamaeleo (Trioceros) affinis (Necas, 1995), bitaeniatus (Bustard, 1996), Hoehnelii (Hebrard 1983, Hebrard & Madsen 1984, Toxopeus et al 1988), Chamaeleo calyptratus (Necas, 1990, 1991, 1995), Bradypodion thamobates (Langerwerf 1992, Raw 1976). Also, some of them are known to form permanent couples, like Chamaeleo (Trioceros) Hoehnelii (Hebrard 1983, Hebrard et Madsen 1984, Toxepeus et al 1988).

The only difference is all of those communal species are chameleons and the observations are with in the same species of chameleons. Not a chameleon and a gecko.

 

[Syn]

Im keeping a brookesia superciliaris and a pair of Phelsuma modesta leiogaster together. With no problems so far.

I've also seen various posts where you condone the feeding of geckos and similar reptiles to chameleons and other reptiles.

 

[morpheon]

Whoa. I was not trying at all to be rude. I was asking questions and I do apologize if it came accross that I was attacking you. Those were just the questions that came to my mind. I do not know you, you do not know me-again-this is what happens when people are "conversing" through type.
Natural habitat does not equal captivity.
Scientifically wise experience is not correlated to knowledge-WHAT? WHAT? My Biology Degree and my experience make me want to argue with you.

It's curious but the only two questions you have written are:
1) I too am interested in the "why". Are you bored? Do you enjoy potential disaster? Do you like danger? Bragging rights? Proving people wrong?
----Which is an attack to me

and

2) For how long i have kept chameleons
----Which is off-topic and moves the initial topic to another one.



As to the statement that experience is not correlated to knowledge, i got this from a teacher in my university classes on psychology. You may not agree with it, this is your right. And no matter if this is actually true or not, i do believe that reading IS correlated to knowledge and i can claim that i do read a lot, without a doubt.


Now, you haven't replied to the root of what i have written a few posts earlier.

 

[Julirs]

It's curious but the only two questions you have written are:
1) I too am interested in the "why". Are you bored? Do you enjoy potential disaster? Do you like danger? Bragging rights? Proving people wrong?
----Which is an attack to me

and

2) For how long i have kept chameleons
----Which is off-topic and moves the initial topic to another one.



As to the statement that experience is not correlated to knowledge, i got this from a teacher in my university classes on psychology. You may not agree with it, this is your right. And no matter if this is actually true or not, i do believe that reading IS correlated to knowledge and i can claim that i do read a lot, without a doubt.


Now, you haven't replied to the root of what i have written a few posts earlier.

That was 6 questions and I am too intrigued by this new argument about experience and reading knowledge.

 

[morpheon]

The only difference is all of those communal species are chameleons and the observation are with in the same species of chameleons. Not a chameleon and a gecko.

Very good point Cainschams. However, this support the fact that chameleons aren't as much loners as most people think! Then, why can't they live with other reptiles or lizards??

This kind of questioning is directly from the kind of thinking that any scientific research has. How do i know that? Because i have been studying and doing research for quite a while now and my school formation is directly linked to that.

Finally, the quote you quoted was an answer to something Julirs wrote and was not directly linked to the initial subject.


EDIT: i received the answer i was looking for. Thank you!