Cohabitation of a chameleon and a Phelsuma

[morpheon]

Here is a little debate i am reading on a daily basis on a french forum.

To sum it up, two persons are currently having a Phelsuma Madagascaris with one of their chameleons, both are living in an enclosure of a relatively big size (larger than some of you guys suggest and use). One of them, a woman, is VERY but VERY experienced. To compare to someone here, i'd say she's as knowledgeable as Kiny (Lynda), on these boards (i spoke to both of them enough to be able to do a fair comparison). I am now talking about over 15 years of experience, with very rare species, and housing very large amounts of chameleons and reptiles at the same time and in total.

The other keeper is someone who has very restricted experience with chameleons, but who has read a lot and is well informed by very good breeders.

Now, what i am wondering is if someone has tried it. Every semi-experienced keeper knows that stress can be an issue, and the Phelsuma becoming a lunch for the chameleon can be another one. The lady kept a Phelsuma for over 2 years now without a problem. However, having a very large number of chameleons, everything has been done to make sure he's living with a good chameleon and has enough room and food for both of them. The second person, has kept his Phelsuma with a chameleon for only a few months (maybe 2 to 4), and as far as i know, he only has one chameleon (i may be wrong though).

Also, just to make sure i don't get misunderstood, i am not telling anyone to try it if they don't know what they are doing. However, i think this is something that could be explored by experienced and talented breeders, if it has'nt been done already.

 

[Kent67]

Are the Phelsuma madagascariensis full grown? And what species and size of chameleon(s) do the keepers have in with them?

 

[morpheon]

One is a sub-adult Calyptratus (the lady), the other is a sub-adult Furcifer Pardalis (if i remember well, a red bar Ambilobe)

The lady has a 20cm in lenght Phelsuma. The guy has a slightly smaller Phelsuma than his chameleon. I join a picture to let you see his Phelsuma's size.

Also, both report seeing them close in range, as close as 2cm from each other. However, something commun that has been reported, is that as soon as the chameleon is shooting a cricket, the Phelsuma get the hell out of there, just in case!

 

[ijmccollum]

Haven't kept Phelsuma with chams but have had experience with frogs and ended up having to rehouse the Phelsuma because my dumpies were ending up with bite marks.

There will always be arguments for not housing different species but frankly, there will always be some one doing it and success will run the gambit.

 

[morpheon]

Update:

Both case are still alive and doing well.

I also went to a petstore in Quebec city (undoubtly the best petstore i have seen for chameleons) that kept a Phelsuma inside the cage of a couple of fully grown Melleri! I spoke to the manager and he told me that initially someone dumped the Phelsuma at the petstore and left it there. Then, some worker put the Phelsuma into the cage of the two chameleons to feed them (while the manager wasn't there). The male Melleri, who was fully grown at that time, hit the Phelsuma with his tongue, but he didn't make it to pull the lizard into his tongue since the Phelsuma's feet are stickier than the Melleri's tongue!

From then, both Melleris didn't even bother the Phelsuma and have been cohabitating for over a year now. The manager even added a female Phelsuma into the cage a few days ago and everything is doing fine.

It is however important to know that all these animals are into a glass enclosure, but a very very large on (I didn't measure it but i'd say at least 6ft x3ft x4ft (it's larger than higher though).


I am now up to 3 semi-long term cohabitations of chameleons with Phelsumas, and i am considering trying it sooner or later!

 

[Ryan Jarosek]

I have seen a chameleon eat a day gecko...

 

[chameleonneeds]

In Cape Town in a place called Butterfly world they have most of the reptiles that were in those crates of madagascar animals on route to another country which were abandoned in our internation airport. They have these geckso, an ambilobe and nosy be panther. In the cage that has the geckos, they have with the geckos, those huge green tree frogs and a veiled chameleon, that veiled chameleon was actualy not doing to well at all but there was nothing I could do about it. But I so wanted to smash the cages and take all the chameleons away from them

So yeah I have seen a gecko living with a cham, though it didnt look like there was any problems I would still not do it, just incase.

 

[Texas Panther Man]

Yeah i could see that turning out to be an expensive feeder.

 

[Monkeykungphu]

Seems like quite the experiment to just "see what'll happen..." Is there a purpose for putting the two species together? Is it just for looks or out of lack of space for the animals? Just wondering, not sure why this would be a favorable situation really.

Also, is there any 'chameleon breeding' intended to take place in this scenario?

 

[fluxlizard]

LOL the one with the subadult calyptratus should have a look at the pic at one eating a leopard gecko in the book about the yemen chameleon.

Most chameleons LOVE to eat other lizards when they get the chance.

 

[morpheon]

Haha Monkey, if i was good at Photoshop i'd mix a Phelsuma with a Pardalis to show you what "the babies look like"!

In the three cases i have seen, none of them were put together for a lack of space, at all. The goal to me is to try to find a good partner for a chameleon that wouldn't be harmful for any of them. There is also a good rational behind these two species, including the conditions they need, the reflexes of the Phelsuma, their size, their origin from Madagascar, etc. It is not a random try and i would monitor it very closely.

As a scientific mind, i would conclude this try with two questions: "what if we make these two species together", and "why not?".

I also would like to add that i know chameleons can and will most likely eat any lizards, and i am not looking for that kind of trivial information. What i want is stories or comments about this exact mix of a chameleon with a Phelsuma Madagascarensis, thank you.

 

[Ryan Jarosek]

Haha Monkey, if i was good at Photoshop i'd mix a Phelsuma with a Pardalis to show you what "the babies look like"!

In the three cases i have seen, none of them were put together for a lack of space, at all. The goal to me is to try to find a good partner for a chameleon that wouldn't be harmful for any of them. There is also a good rational behind these two species, including the conditions they need, the reflexes of the Phelsuma, their size, their origin from Madagascar, etc. It is not a random try and i would monitor it very closely.

As a scientific mind, i would conclude this try with two questions: "what if we make these two species together", and "why not?".

I also would like to add that i know chameleons can and will most likely eat any lizards, and i am not looking for that kind of trivial information. What i want is stories or comments about this exact mix of a chameleon with a Phelsuma Madagascarensis, thank you.

What is trivial about a chameleon eating a day gecko. I have seen it , and it is fact. You got what you asked for THE EXACT MIX. A PANTHER TOOK A BIG CHOMP AND SWALLOWED A GIANT DAY GECKO.

The answer to "what if" can go on for ever. The options are it will be fine to my cham just ate my gecko. The answer to "why not" wont matter as you will find a number of reasons to move forward.

What more than a chameleon eats geckos would you need? oh I guess that is trivial information.

 

[morpheon]

I wasn't targetting you Ryan, and i'd like things to remain respectful and calm. Sarcasm isn't necessary here, thank you.

As to what more would i need, i'd answer more details!

So far, the score is 3 success and 1 failure with what you added. The goal would now be to determine why it can work and why it didn't work, while still getting more stories like that to higher the number of tries.

 

[Ryan Jarosek]

I wasn't targetting you Ryan, and i'd like things to remain respectful and calm. Sarcasm isn't necessary here, thank you.
.

Thats good because I was just rolling my eyes at the dismissal of the fact that one of the animals can kill the other. No sarcasm intended.

I think the wrong questions are being asked. IMO - the "why" needs to be answered first. Other than the a reason that involves a human need such as my panther needs a friend or it would look cool. The fact one can kill the other and there is limited room for escape is good enough for me.

What benefit is it to the animal who is already in an unnatural environment? We already know it works in Maddy so there is no secret to find out other than to satisfy something in the human mind. Can I make these two animals exist in one cage even though there is the potential of one being killed or injured?

Why? is important as well as your questions but before why is answered who cares what if?

I have a parsonii that lives with a mantis , only difference is I tried to feed it to her and if it ends up eaten that was the original plan anyway. So the why has been answered and the what if is out there.

 

[Ryan Jarosek]

So far, the score is 3 success and 1 failure with what you added. The goal would now be to determine why it can work and why it didn't work, while still getting more stories like that to higher the number of tries.

I would not call it a failure there was no attempt to make this happen. It was a horrible accident.

So the score would be 3 so called "success" and 1 horrible accident.

 

[morpheon]

What benefit is it to the animal who is already in an unnatural environment? We already know it works in Maddy so there is no secret to find out other than to satisfy something in the human mind. Can I make these two animals exist in one cage even though there is the potential of one being killed or injured?

You are right when you postulate that it is to satisfy human mind, at least partially. But to this hypothesis i'd simply answer: why do we have chameleons if it's not for the human mind? And how could that be different from trying to have two reptiles that MAY be working in captivity? Just remember when the importations started back in the 90ies, nothing was done and nobody really knew how to maintain these chameleons in captivity.

I'm sure you understand that motivations can be different from one person to another and that you may have your opinion on the subject and i may have mine. This doesn't stop me from respecting you, and i hope it is the same for you about me.

However, no matter if you agree with this experience or not (which i have not started by the way and won't before a month at its best - if i ever try it), your horrible accident could help me a lot, by giving me more details. Afterall, if you are here, i suppose it is for the purpose of helping others, and as far as i know, answering to my curiosity is something i consider helping me. I don't know if you agree with this is not.

 

[Carlton]

Thats good because I was just rolling my eyes at the dismissal of the fact that one of the animals can kill the other. No sarcasm intended.

I think the wrong questions are being asked. IMO - the "why" needs to be answered first. Other than the a reason that involves a human need such as my panther needs a friend or it would look cool. The fact one can kill the other and there is limited room for escape is good enough for me.
Why? is important as well as your questions but before why is answered who cares what if?

Ryan, you are right where I am with asking questions! In a huge "cage" (ei: a scrub/shrub habitat in Mada) yes, the two species can and do co-exist. But, this is meaningless if you try comparing this situation to a captive, artificial one.

CAN the two species be kept together? There are two answers based entirely on the situation: Yes and No.

SHOULD the two species be kept together? There are two answers based entirely on the situation: Yes and No.

WHY would I house the two species together? THIS is the one to ponder. The other two questions have different answers depending on how they are asked and how much rationalization you intend to do while trying.

For example: If you are a zoo that attempts to house complimentary species together in a reproduction of a Mada habitat maybe the answers to the questions are Yes.

Another example: If you are a hobbyist who doesn't want to create separate habitats for captive animals because of space or efficiency problems, the answers to the questions are probably no.

If you are a hobbyist who wants to test or disprove a commonly held belief for bragging rights, you are probably going to try it no matter what others say. We all know that cham keeping isn't an exact science and that exceptions to rules exist. What is the point in arguing? If both species end up co-existing there is no way to know whether it was simply those specific animals, the perfect cage setup, two mellow individuals, really good feeding practice, or complete chance. If one species ends up dying or being injured by the other again, there are multiple reasons for that outcome too.

If you are going to challenge a general rule of thumb about cham housing I'd suggest doing it scientifically...multiple tests, following the health and breeding to several generations of both species, documenting results, necropsies on all dead animals, etc. If you just want to "try it" who's going to stop you?

What I would NOT want to see is some sort of general claim that "phelsuma geckos and chams can use the same cage" based on one person's experience. That would be a disservice to the newbies these forums exist to help.

 

[morpheon]

To many points your opinion is very close to mine Carlton, and this is exactly why i am trying to gather as much information as i can BEFORE trying something like that.

I would also add that chameleon keeping isn't an exact science, but the community ended up finding good basic conditions to make the chameleons live a few years longer than in the nature. Maybe, someday, we'll be able to do the same with, let's say, glass enclosures, cohabitation with a few other species, determine the origin of different health problem like eggs binding, etc. But if we (or at least I) want this to happen, i need as much information as i can. At the end, it could even be done mathematically by running a few statistics to know if there is any correlations between different factors (size of the enclosure, the proportion between the size of the Phelsuma and the chameleon, etc).

So far, i don't think we'll be able to claim that a single species of lizard can cohabitate with a chameleon until 5 to 10 years in the best case, if it ever happens. However, this doesn't stop me from at least getting some infos and maybe trying it out on my own. There is also a purpose why i posted this thread HERE and not in the General section: i don't want too many newbies read this and understand wrongly what i am trying to do, because we all know that new persons getting chameleons try bad mix of animals sometimes.

On a side note, even though i wasn't really wanting to get different point of view on the subject, i appreciate your deeper analysis Carlton, which is worth reading a few times and considering. It is much better and useful than the usual "chameleons can eat lizards" or "cohabitation is bad" or "cohabitation is good". So if you have anything else to add, feel free to publish it here!

 

[Ryan Jarosek]

You are right when you postulate that it is to satisfy human mind, at least partially. But to this hypothesis i'd simply answer: why do we have chameleons if it's not for the human mind? And how could that be different from trying to have two reptiles that MAY be working in captivity? Just remember when the importations started back in the 90ies, nothing was done and nobody really knew how to maintain these chameleons in captivity.
.

touché! You provide a very good point. One that I have a hard time arguing with.

I do have a concern with the word trivial that was used. When thinking of the word trivial I think of "Very little importance or value". The fact that one animal can kill the other is definitely not trivial at least not in my opinion. It has been enough for me to resist the urge.

At the same time. I am not one that is afraid to try something new or "different". Not all my methods are the norm. I feel I need to make the augment to make it clear that is a big risk.

I respect everyones opinions but I like to put mine out there. I am not one to disrespect anyone so I hope I am not coming off that way.

 

[Ryan Jarosek]

You guys type too fast.