Cohabitation of a chameleon and a Phelsuma

[VeiledOwner87]

As you may have noticed already, i am all for science, and questionning actual theories is something that has to be done (not everything, nor for any reason of course).QUOTE]

maybe thats why we dont see eye to eye. a theory is a theory, and just cause it may successfully work for some, the theories will always be unsettled in matters like these. if you havent noticed, im all for husbandry techniques that will always stay rooted for healthy, happy and safe living. if you want to be all science, i respect that. but im not a science person. nor am i one that believes in evolution either. adaptation is one thing, but evo is not in my books. so i say the debate between us just stops, cause we will never see eye to eye

 

[Syn]

As you may have noticed already, i am all for science, and questionning actual theories is something that has to be done (not everything, nor for any reason of course).

maybe thats why we dont see eye to eye. a theory is a theory, and just cause it may successfully work for some, the theories will always be unsettled in matters like these. if you havent noticed, im all for husbandry techniques that will always stay rooted for healthy, happy and safe living. if you want to be all science, i respect that. but im not a science person. nor am i one that believes in evolution either. adaptation is one thing, but evo is not in my books. so i say the debate between us just stops, cause we will never see eye to eye

But I'm not done with my POPCORN!!!!

 

[morpheon]

maybe thats why we dont see eye to eye. a theory is a theory, and just cause it may successfully work for some, the theories will always be unsettled in matters like these. if you havent noticed, im all for husbandry techniques that will always stay rooted for healthy, happy and safe living. if you want to be all science, i respect that. but im not a science person. nor am i one that believes in evolution either. adaptation is one thing, but evo is not in my books. so i say the debate between us just stops, cause we will never see eye to eye

I HATE YOU AND YOU RUINED MY LIFE!!! (just kidding to let Syn think she has some drama to read!)


More seriously, your way to think isn't bad at all, and i can not claim that my way is better than yours. However, since i am the only one habilitated to take decisions for myself (except from the Law, but you get the point!), i will do what i want based on what i believe in, just like you must be behaving based on what you believe!

So yes, i believe our discussion has come to stop. Thank you for your concern and for your time SIR.

 

[Julirs]

OK-got some sleep. I guess my point would have to be it can and will work, IF you find the right one or two animals that don't kill/eat/stress each other. You can/will do what you want morpheon, I just hope you find these two animals on the first attempt so you do not have to go through a string of dead, stressed, ill animals to prove your point.

My suggestion, rather than attempt this experiement, is to add some different animals to your collection (housed separately of course) and study their behavior. I guarantee that you will feel differently once you have the chance to understand a few different personalities.

One thing I see on the forum lately is people that have only had one or two chameleons -even though they are very sucessful keepers, tend to feel that all chameleons behave/react the same way. I truly do not think you see the bigger picture until you keep a number of species, and a number of animals of each species. I am pretty sure that if I had never added to my collection beyond my first few Veileds, who actually act far differently than even other Veileds I have acquired, I would not even feel the same way on a number of topics as I do now.
morpheon-sorry that you felt I attacked you-it is usually not my style-but I am very to the point. I really think you should gain some more hands on experience with these animals before jumping into "experiments". We all have alot to learn here.

 

[fluxlizard]

Coming at this thread from another angle-

As a kid 30 years ago I thought cohabitating different species of lizards was a cool idea.

As a kid I always had a "community" terrarium with a few species of lizard and frog or toad or big salamander.

30 years and thousands of lizards (counting offspring I have produced) later, I wonder what in the world the appeal was to me.

The lizards didn't display "more" behaviors when kept together, usually they displayed less. Unless a terrarium is very large, it is very difficult to provide optimal conditions for more than one species. Usually one or more species was intimidated or stressed by the other to the point that one or more would hunker down and not move around normally. Parasitic cross contamination becomes more likely. When observing the lizards it is difficult to enjoy and focus on one species or the other and their behavior is usually restrained anyway, for reasons mentioned. Successful breeding becomes more difficult.

lizards aren't aquarium fish. I have found through experience that they are much more enjoyable and rewarding kept in species specific terraria.

Just my 2 cents.

Nothing as direct as you would like as far as having done exactly what you want to do, but still something you might think about if you do try this - might give you somethings to consider when observing your results.

 

[chefbill]

When I moved my Melleri into its cage I did not think to put a divider in to keep him from seeing the others living next to him one being a P m day gecko full grown the other being a beardy. The day gecko liked hanging out on the side by the Melleri. The frilled dragon who lived there before the melleri liked having the day gecko hangin out next door they would both hang on their respective cage sides. No stress at all. The Melleri seemed stressed by being able to see the Gecko. Almost Immediate relief from stress colors by putting up a visual barrier. When my crested accidentally got into the Melleri cage this also prompted stressful behavior and territorial displays. Just my own personal observations.

 

[fluxlizard]

The frilled dragon who lived there before the melleri liked having the day gecko hangin out next door they would both hang on their respective cage sides. No stress at all.

Careful how you interpret what you are observing. I'm not saying you are wrong, but they might be hanging out near each other because the day gecko is not stressed but likes that part of the cage environment, and the frilled wishes he could get the gecko and cannot. Or the frilled could be trying to show dominance and be trying to intimidate the gecko away from that part of territory, etc. Or it could mean both are trying to intimidate the other away by claiming territory and hanging out right next to each other.

Like I say, you may be right as well- I'm just pointing out that just because two lizards are hanging out together doesn't mean they "like" hanging out together.

As a kid I thought my iguana loved being rubbed on his shoulders because he would lean into it. And he loved being stroked on the head because his eyes would close. Years later I read in a natural history book about how they lean against each others shoulders and push to determine dominance. And they close their eyes to tune out annoyances or dominant individuals they do not want to threaten (looking a dominant individual in the eye is a challenge so they close the eye). Looking back the lizard might have been thinking I was asserting my dominance when I thought I was giving him love.

Our human interpretation of lizard behavior can sometimes be off. My point is simply that interpretation is another difficulty when putting 2 species together, especially this is true if one is not very familiar with normal behavior in both species prior to cohabitation.

 

[chefbill]

Would not dream of putting them together. And yes that side of the cage had the heat lamp for the gecko. Never really thought about it that way with the frilled dragon.Makes sense. I think the Melleri would have tried to get the crested judging by his behavior

 

[fluxlizard]

Oh yeah I'm not saying you would keep them together- I'm not even saying you are wrong necessarily in your interpretation of their behavior- I'm just pointing out the difficulties of interpretation sometimes and since this thread is about cohabitation, I'm pointing out that interpretation of behavior adds yet another problem to cohabitation.

 

[Texas Panther Man]

Im still wondering why the op wants to try this? This experiment isnt going to prove anything. Personally I wouldnt want to risk injuring any of my animals in my care just to prove a theory can work ONCE. Not trying to be rude but I cant stand to see a reptile or any animal suffer or be injured when it couldve been avoided all along.

 

[Carlton]

First, I do not think the "in the wild, chams are usually always found solo" comment is accurate and definitely not defensible.

Next, I have personally observed numerous Furcifer pardalis living in close proximity to adult Phelsuma madagascariensis grandis while I was in Madagascar.

Now, with that said, I think the important thing to note is that captivity is not the wild

Ultimately, I would not recommend attempting to keep F. pardalis and P. m. grandis as cohabitants in captivity for a number of reasons. First, there is the chance of the chameleon eating the gecko. Secondly, some chameleons might be stressed by the presence of a large gecko in the same enclosure, although I tend to think many wouldn't be to bothered by it based on the behavior of these geckos. Finally, I don't think a chameleon cage set up for a panther chameleon is an enclosure that would allow appropriate appreciation of the gecko.

You took the text right off my keyboard Chris!

The bottom line here really is, can you keep two predators (who are also competing for similar food, space, light, heat, moisture) in a limited space without endangering one or the other? Probably not.

Is it possible to experiment to find out? Sure it's possible but the results of the experiment are going to be subject to subtle side effects and may not be very useful in the long term. Some animals may not behave exactly like others in the same situation.

Is it OK to askthe question in the first place? Sure, why not? Those of us who have kept a number of chameleons can predict some possible outcomes based on our knowledge of their behavior. There is nothing wrong with speculating, wondering, or imagining something. That's how we learn and how we come up with new ideas.

Would I try this myself? Probably not. I don't want to stress my animals or take a chance that one will injure the other. And, the setup I would want for the Phelsuma would be different than for the pardalis anyway.

 

[holmesese]

Interesting discussion....

Ethics aside, here are my thoughts.
I have maintained several breeding groups of P.m. grandis and have a few pertinent observations.

1) Male giant day geckos get BIG.... some 12 + inches (hence the name)
2) They are extremely active and aggressive feeders
3) Males are extremely territorial and very fast

With that said - everyone has been worried about the cham attacking the giant day gecko....however beware the giant day geckos could really give an adult panther chameleon a "run for its money" if it decided it was a threat to its territory.

In regards to keeping them together, I don't necessarily condone it, but if you feel the need - it may be possible if you minimize competition for resources like food, lighting, and "perches." The easiest way this could be accomplished is through a large cage and wise decor selection. Try and use climbing material that is better suited to one species over the other and avoid decor that would be used equally by both species.... For example...Day geckos have a strong affinity for bamboo perches - both vertical and horizontal so pick larger than 3 inch diameter bamboo pieces that a chameleon would prefer not to climb on. On the contrary, day geckos do not like skinny perches less than their body width so providing a ficus tree with skinnier branches would be more preferable for the cham and not the gecko.... So having a bamboo forest with a lot of vertical perches on one side of the enclosure and a ficus forest on the other may accomplish the apparent "goal" of keeping them in the same enclosure and minimizing negative encounters.

When you go to a zoo or aquarium you will notice that most of their multi-species exhibits are designed this way. Even though there are multiple species in an enclosure the enclosure is naturally partitioned by each species habitat preferences. However, to design these enclosure they have hired trained staff (who have often gone to school for a LONG time) to design these complex displays with the care and wellfare of every animal in mind.

 

[Carlton]

Interesting discussion....


1) Male giant day geckos get BIG.... some 12 + inches (hence the name)

however beware the giant day geckos could really give an adult panther chameleon a "run for its money" if it decided it was a threat to its territory.

However, to design these enclosure they have hired trained staff (who have often gone to school for a LONG time) to design these complex displays with the care and wellfare of every animal in mind.

Agreed. I have only seen a few big Phelsuma in the wild, but they were definitely something to be cautious of. I suspect that a cham is more likely to try bluffing and display first, but a threatened Phelsuma would just attack physically if it can't escape.

Unfortunately I've also seen zoo exhibits that just don't work for all the inhabitants...but the public doesn't realize what the turnover in animals actually is. When one gets sick or stressed they replace it or rotate different individuals in or out of displays on a short term schedule. Obviously rare or highly valuable species are put at much less risk or not even in displays. A zoo will be very very lucky to have curators who are experts on every animal under their care.

 

[holmesese]

Unfortunately I've also seen zoo exhibits that just don't work for all the inhabitants...but the public doesn't realize what the turnover in animals actually is. When one gets sick or stressed they replace it or rotate different individuals in or out of displays on a short term schedule. Obviously rare or highly valuable species are put at much less risk or not even in displays. A zoo will be very very lucky to have curators who are experts on every animal under their care.

Good points... the herpetology exhibits at the Atlanta zoo only display about a quarter of the animals they have at any given time. Also, while zoo staff typically aren't experts on every animal in their care, my point was more that they likely have more formal instruction as to the care of these animals than the average hobbyist.

 

[morpheon]

Not trying to be rude but I cant stand to see a reptile or any animal suffer or be injured when it couldve been avoided all along.

Your way to express yourself was nice, thank you.

To your rational, i would simply say: how many chameleons have been hurt/killed/neglected/tortured (use the word(s) you want) when they first were introduced into artificial habitats???

If we'd use your thinking, there would be no chameleon in our house, at all, unless we'd live at Madacasgar (or any other country with chameleons living in the wild...).

Of course, you could tell me "is it necessary to try your project to have two different animals cohabitate??" To this, i would reply: "Was it necessary to have chameleons imported??".

To me, the comparison is amazingly similar. It may not be for you, and it is your choice, and i have no choice but to respect your position. However, i just hope you'll respect my position as well!

 

[morpheon]

Interesting discussion....

Ethics aside, here are my thoughts.
I have maintained several breeding groups of P.m. grandis and have a few pertinent observations.

1) Male giant day geckos get BIG.... some 12 + inches (hence the name)
2) They are extremely active and aggressive feeders
3) Males are extremely territorial and very fast

With that said - everyone has been worried about the cham attacking the giant day gecko....however beware the giant day geckos could really give an adult panther chameleon a "run for its money" if it decided it was a threat to its territory.

In regards to keeping them together, I don't necessarily condone it, but if you feel the need - it may be possible if you minimize competition for resources like food, lighting, and "perches." The easiest way this could be accomplished is through a large cage and wise decor selection. Try and use climbing material that is better suited to one species over the other and avoid decor that would be used equally by both species.... For example...Day geckos have a strong affinity for bamboo perches - both vertical and horizontal so pick larger than 3 inch diameter bamboo pieces that a chameleon would prefer not to climb on. On the contrary, day geckos do not like skinny perches less than their body width so providing a ficus tree with skinnier branches would be more preferable for the cham and not the gecko.... So having a bamboo forest with a lot of vertical perches on one side of the enclosure and a ficus forest on the other may accomplish the apparent "goal" of keeping them in the same enclosure and minimizing negative encounters.

When you go to a zoo or aquarium you will notice that most of their multi-species exhibits are designed this way. Even though there are multiple species in an enclosure the enclosure is naturally partitioned by each species habitat preferences. However, to design these enclosure they have hired trained staff (who have often gone to school for a LONG time) to design these complex displays with the care and wellfare of every animal in mind.

This is EXACTLY the kind of post i was looking for! I thank you very very much! I think it is far more useful to me than saying the lizards could get hurt!

Once again, thank you!

 

[fluxlizard]

Next, I have personally observed numerous Furcifer pardalis living in close proximity to adult Phelsuma madagascariensis grandis while I was in Madagascar.

Playing devils advocate a little here-

There could be various interpretations of what you observed.

Are the pardalis near the grandis because they are compatible (indifferent towards each other)?

Are they near each other because one (or both) are hunting the other (large of either would take small of either for lunch)?

Are they actively competing for the same resources in a way that they view each other as competition (light, temp, humidity, shelter, food)?

Many insects can probably be observed in close proximity to these species as well- does not mean they are not on the menu and that these insects are compatible with these lizards.

I'm not saying never keep them together under any circumstance- I am just again trying to point out to the OP that things are a little more complex than if you toss them in a terrarium and they both survive for a year, everything is fine and they get along great.

Mostly just things to consider when observing the finished terrarium I suppose...

 

[morpheon]

Playing devils advocate a little here-

There could be various interpretations of what you observed.

Are the pardalis near the grandis because they are compatible (indifferent towards each other)?

Are they near each other because one (or both) are hunting the other (large of either would take small of either for lunch)?

Are they actively competing for the same resources in a way that they view each other as competition (light, temp, humidity, shelter, food)?

Many insects can probably be observed in close proximity to these species as well- does not mean they are not on the menu and that these insects are compatible with these lizards.

I'm not saying never keep them together under any circumstance- I am just again trying to point out to the OP that things are a little more complex than if you toss them in a terrarium and they both survive for a year, everything is fine and they get along great.

Mostly just things to consider when observing the finished terrarium I suppose...

Maybe Chris has answers to your questions, but i do not! However, i like your comments and i will keep thinking about them, before, during and after the experiment (if it ever happens)! Of course, these are things that IF I EVER START THE PROJECT, i will have to watch very closely. Without a doubt i'll never find a universal answer to even one single question you just asked, but it MAY work for the two lizards i might have (or 4 or 6 or 8... whatever), or may not! And if my project is good enough and working well enough for other people to reproduce it, maybe some day we'll have a semi-good answer to a few of your questions!

 

[Monkeykungphu]

So... now I have to ask... after 8 pages of discussion on your idea & the majority of people who posted here overwhelmingly agree that this is not a good idea to put the two together, are you close to making your mind up on whether or not you are going to give this a go?

If you do decide to do this, please report your results as to whether or not one of the two animals tried/suceeded in eating the other.

 

[morpheon]

As of now, if i had the proper installations ready, i'd probably try it. However, this is not close to being done and i'll try to get more information, especially from those who did try similar projects.

And yes, of course i will be writing more about the process. I'll try to add as much information as i can, to ensure that if it works it can be reproduced and if it doesn't work, people can help me find ways to make it work. And if it's really not a viable project, to make sure that nobody else try it again!