Cohabitation of a chameleon and a Phelsuma

[Julirs]

Old thread people! And for the record I have no beef with Morpheon. I may have been having a bad day, or just did not see the point in the "experiement". However, please remember that what you read in one thread could have been influenced somewhere by other posts/threads.

 

[KingJulien]

I *really* want to keep out of this one, but I have to ask... How big of a risk to the safety of the animals is it really? Particularly the cham. If you notice stress, then separate them.

I've seen some of the nastiest behavior on this forum I've ever seen in this thread. And about every type of logical fallacy.

All this said, I have both species and no interest in trying to cohabitate them. But it's not worth belitting someone over.

The potential for stress is there. What would actually happen is unknown.

I don't have a problem with showing animals to each other and seeing how they react, but placing two animals in a cage together to spend time together unsupervised can be irresponsible.

The only reason I wanted to chime in was poor logic. I don't like a story that changes with the arguments presented, and then dissolves into the "opinion" thing.

My arguments are never against a person, they are against the statements made. Perfectly nice, intelligent people can say or write things that don't make sense or stand up to question.

 

[morpheon]

So everyone has an opinion and we can all just share and no one is right and no one is wrong?

That is the kind of thinking that is the antithesis of science.

The issue of animal cruelty in the name of research is exactly the purpose of this post. You argued that this was an experiment. You, in doing that so called "experiment" would be risking the safety and well being of both animals.

1) If this "experiment" is considered animal cruelty, i wonder how many other things you consider animal cruelty!! It's not like i haven't done any research before trying it out, and the chances that i harm these two animals are far less possible than when chameleons were first introduced into America and Europe! And like someone said before, if i would notice any signs of stress, rejection, agression, domination, or anything else, i wouldn't hesitate to remove the phelsuma and relocate him to a good place!

2) Your thinking of "antithesis of science" is not something i share. If you take a look at some of the best authors/researchers on any scientific subject, you will notice that they almost never say that someone is completely wrong or completely right. They will argue that they do not agree with a part of any theory or hypothesis, or that something could or should have been done differently, or that one thing is better than an other, but never say that "something is wrong". Science isnt the philosophy of the years 400 before Jesus Christ where authors would say that there is only the Mind, while others would say that there is only the Body!!

In case you ignored, most philosophers and scientists now believe that both sides were actually partially right, as MANY research prove that the mind and body are indeed linked together!! I have many examples to that if you dont believe me! So its not all black or all white, just like you and I arent all white or all black!

Another good example is what Julirs said before (i take your example Julirs, but it could have been many other people) . Julirs has good reasons to believe that this could easily end up in a bad way, and that in her personal philosophy, internal values, or whatever, she believes that this experiment should not be done. On the other side, i believe that it is possible to try it out, and avoid most of the bad sides. Now, who am I to say that Julirs is right or wrong?? And who would she be to say that i am completely wrong?? I believe her logic is not bad at all, and so is mine. We just dont share the same values and dont have the same appreciation of the risk versus value of this experiment. That doesnt make her or me right and the other wrong!

Just to make sure my thoughts are clear enough: there is a fine difference between arguing over something undone, which is heavily linked to personal vision, values, principles, philosophy, than judging and discussing about a proven fact like if chameleons need UVBs to live a healthy life or not!! Its not because i do not share the same point of view or internal value with others that the other peoples values and beliefs arent worth anything!!

Just like if someone believes they should remain virgin until they are married, i do not share the same point of view, but its their choice and i respect it!! Or if you like the Nissan 350Z and that i prefer the Mazda Rx8, i can still understand why you like the 350Z! And theres no link to science! Its all about points of view.

Of course, there may be people who are completely right, or completely wrong. Maybe Julirs is completely right, and so are you, and maybe i am completely wrong! But who are WE to judge that??? What gives you the right to say that i am wrong to think that? You may BELIEVE that i am wrong, that my logic is flawed, but you cant say for sure that I am wrong! Until then, my personal choice is to respect everyones point of view, to consider all these ways to see things, and then choose what i prefer. That doesnt mean that others are good or bad! Once again, things are not all black nor all white!

 

[Ace]

The potential for stress is there. What would actually happen is unknown.

I don't have a problem with showing animals to each other and seeing how they react, but placing two animals in a cage together to spend time together unsupervised can be irresponsible.

The only reason I wanted to chime in was poor logic. I don't like a story that changes with the arguments presented, and then dissolves into the "opinion" thing.

My arguments are never against a person, they are against the statements made. Perfectly nice, intelligent people can say or write things that don't make sense or stand up to question.

1) If this "experiment" is considered animal cruelty, i wonder how many other things you consider animal cruelty!! It's not like i haven't done any research before trying it out, and the chances that i harm these two animals are far less possible than when chameleons were first introduced into America and Europe! And like someone said before, if i would notice any signs of stress, rejection, agression, domination, or anything else, i wouldn't hesitate to remove the phelsuma and relocate him to a good place!

2) Your thinking of "antithesis of science" is not something i share. If you take a look at some of the best authors/researchers on any scientific subject, you will notice that they almost never say that someone is completely wrong or completely right. They will argue that they do not agree with a part of any theory or hypothesis, or that something could or should have been done differently, or that one thing is better than an other, but never say that "something is wrong". Science isnt the philosophy of the years 400 before Jesus Christ where authors would say that there is only the Mind, while others would say that there is only the Body!!

In case you ignored, most philosophers and scientists now believe that both sides were actually partially right, as MANY research prove that the mind and body are indeed linked together!! I have many examples to that if you dont believe me! So its not all black or all white, just like you and I arent all white or all black!

Another good example is what Julirs said before (i take your example Julirs, but it could have been many other people) . Julirs has good reasons to believe that this could easily end up in a bad way, and that in her personal philosophy, internal values, or whatever, she believes that this experiment should not be done. On the other side, i believe that it is possible to try it out, and avoid most of the bad sides. Now, who am I to say that Julirs is right or wrong?? And who would she be to say that i am completely wrong?? I believe her logic is not bad at all, and so is mine. We just dont share the same values and dont have the same appreciation of the risk versus value of this experiment. That doesnt make her or me right and the other wrong!

Just to make sure my thoughts are clear enough: there is a fine difference between arguing over something undone, which is heavily linked to personal vision, values, principles, philosophy, than judging and discussing about a proven fact like if chameleons need UVBs to live a healthy life or not!! Its not because i do not share the same point of view or internal value with others that the other peoples values and beliefs arent worth anything!!

Just like if someone believes they should remain virgin until they are married, i do not share the same point of view, but its their choice and i respect it!! Or if you like the Nissan 350Z and that i prefer the Mazda Rx8, i can still understand why you like the 350Z! And theres no link to science! Its all about points of view.

Of course, there may be people who are completely right, or completely wrong. Maybe Julirs is completely right, and so are you, and maybe i am completely wrong! But who are WE to judge that??? What gives you the right to say that i am wrong to think that? You may BELIEVE that i am wrong, that my logic is flawed, but you cant say for sure that I am wrong! Until then, my personal choice is to respect everyones point of view, to consider all these ways to see things, and then choose what i prefer. That doesnt mean that others are good or bad! Once again, things are not all black nor all white!

WoW! Morpheon, you make long posts

But from what i understand, this thread deals with the methods of science/ experiments and the individual view points that lead to a personal opinion/ preference.
So this discussion thats had turned into a debate, is to me a little redundant by the process of how each person discuss the topic on the thread, and eventually mistakes will be made, because as human beings we are imperfect and do to our imperfect view of the world and how we see things, we strive perfection or what we "perceive" as close to perfect. Thus creating in our own way of analyzing that we consider what is "right" or wrong". i would like to take part in the actual discussion of cohabitation but due to MY LAck of reading and experience with this topic i can only comment of the abstract idea that took part on this thread on how each member reacts and comments to this thread. Very interesting and stimulating and this intrigues me for a 16 year old.

My apologies of any grammar error, and if my post does not make sense. I am trying to write in a "abstract point of view" but even now i might not always write clearly.

Also Morpheon, you seem to have a great repsect towards having an "Open Mind" and i can see how you and i may be similar in how we may understand things, but alas! Even in our own viewpoints it is still just another "point of view" and that my firend makes us just as imperfect beings as anyone else.

 

[morpheon]

Ace, since i am French and i still consider having trouble verbalizing my thoughts in French, i try to write long posts to express all the nuances related to my point of views. I am sorry if this was a very long post!

I also wish i would have had your talent of abstracting subjects and of expressing yourself Ace!! For a young man, you are pretty good i must say!

 

[Ace]

Ace, since i am French and i still consider having trouble verbalizing my thoughts in French, i try to write long posts to express all the nuances related to my point of views. I am sorry if this was a very long post!

I also wish i would have had your talent of abstracting subjects and of expressing yourself Ace!! For a young man, you are pretty good i must say!

Thank you!!! That means a lot coming from you Morpheon. And I wish I can write long posts like you that still make sense.!

 

[Syn]

Thread revival successful, it seems.

I don't have anything to add. Seems as if everything that needs to be said, has been said.

Marc, whatever you do, do it smart...

 

[Ace]

Thread revival successful, it seems.

I don't have anything to add. Seems as if everything that needs to be said, has been said.

Marc, whatever you do, do it smart...

Where's the fun in that?!...jk

 

[morpheon]

Thread revival successful, it seems.

I don't have anything to add. Seems as if everything that needs to be said, has been said.

Marc, whatever you do, do it smart...

I didn't know French people could do smart things!

 

[KingJulien]

Please note my primary focus here, if you go back this is paraphrasing your argument. You can not go from thought A, and say that B is necessarily ethical.

This has been an interesting thread. There are moral issues at play, and I can see how your logic made this connection from the idea of:

"we (humans) risked and caused harm/suffering when importing panthers"

to

"it is okay risk further risk/harm/suffering to try cohabitation"
I think it has been demonstrated already that an attempt at cohabitation would not be a scientific experiment, but rather more of a hobby and a curiosity, which is similar to the hobby and curiosity of keeping a chameleon in the first place, but it is also very different.

I also think that unless you are performing a scientific experiment, in the most pure sense of the terminology, you should not cause or knowingly expose an animal to the potential of harm or suffering.

An exception might be feeding mice to a snake, in which case the mice should be killed as humanely as possible.

This "experiment" or whatever you choose to call it has the potential to cause long term suffering, with no real benefit to either animal.

So....I respectfully disagree with the idea, for the same reason that I would not personally buy a wild caught animal unless I had the years of experience and knowledge needed in order to breed the animal in captivity and make them available in place of other wild caught animals, decreasing exportation. The potential of unneeded suffering outweighs the personal benefit.

In the nature, there isn't just dominant/dominated animals. There are animals that are able to tolerate others, along with some who takes benefits from cohabitating with other animals.

For example, i live with my girlfriend, and even if i like to say that i dominate her ( ), i rather tolerate her and indeed have benefits in living with her! And so does she as she gets the chance to work on her patience skills with me!

Joke apart, my main idea is there is a chance that certain animals can cohabitate with certain chameleons, and i have clues that it may work with my Pardalis.

But for the curious people, i have put this project aside. I can't say that in a year or so i won't try it out, as i can't predict the future (yet). However, i still believe in the project, and if i ever try it, as i said before, people will be aware of it, as i plan on taking as much notes as i can, and as i will monitor everything i can, and try to determine if this is viable or not. So yes, i will keep a very close eye on them since i don't want any of these two (the Phelsuma and my pardalis) hurt, and therefore the project won't be started unless i have a large amount of free time for them on the course of a few months at least.

Of course, in a scientific way it won't be flawless. However, the more notes i take, the higher the chances are that people will be able to reproduce the experiment if it works.

You have still not explained any benefit to this "experiment".

 

[KingJulien]

... continued

It is for everyone!! Just think of all the risks for the animal's life when it comes to lab tests, for example. Or when it comes to importating chameleons to the US and Europe when it first started. Many people said for both subjects that it just wasn't worth it, and these people weren't completely wrong!

My goal is not to start a debate over the worth of any animal's life to the scientific research, because this is not the purpose of the post. There is an off-topic section of the forum where such topic can be discussed! I am just trying to say that yes, many point of view can be considered in such subject, and a point of view different from mine will not necessary be wrong, so won't be mine. I don't even think that one day we might end up to any universal answer to that!

Lab tests are for a purpose, a benefit. Exportation is sometimes justified by the fact that deforestation on Madagascar could result in extinction of one or several species of chameleons. Exported chameleons can be used to repopulate these areas.

So everyone has an opinion and we can all just share and no one is right and no one is wrong?

That is the kind of thinking that is the antithesis of science.

The issue of animal cruelty in the name of research is exactly the purpose of this post. You argued that this was an experiment. You, in doing that so called "experiment" would be risking the safety and well being of both animals.

1) If this "experiment" is considered animal cruelty, i wonder how many other things you consider animal cruelty!! It's not like i haven't done any research before trying it out, and the chances that i harm these two animals are far less possible than when chameleons were first introduced into America and Europe! And like someone said before, if i would notice any signs of stress, rejection, agression, domination, or anything else, i wouldn't hesitate to remove the phelsuma and relocate him to a good place!

It's odd how you keep going back to that thought, that if some pain was caused in the past, it's okay for it to happen in the future.

2) Your thinking of "antithesis of science" is not something i share. If you take a look at some of the best authors/researchers on any scientific subject, you will notice that they almost never say that someone is completely wrong or completely right. They will argue that they do not agree with a part of any theory or hypothesis, or that something could or should have been done differently, or that one thing is better than an other, but never say that "something is wrong". Science isnt the philosophy of the years 400 before Jesus Christ where authors would say that there is only the Mind, while others would say that there is only the Body!!

Perhaps you missed my point. If we say that I have an opinion and you have an opinion and we are all right and we are all wrong and that was the end of it, then would we ever have an answer for anything? If, when Socrates asked "What is justice?" someone said "My opinion is it's what's right" and he said "Ok then, it may differ from my idea, but it's a good idea too", then Philosophy might never have developed in the way we know it today.

In case you ignored, most philosophers and scientists now believe that both sides were actually partially right, as MANY research prove that the mind and body are indeed linked together!! I have many examples to that if you dont believe me! So its not all black or all white, just like you and I arent all white or all black!

The process of science and philopsophy are to try to filter out the untruths in cases where we still don't know the truth. That does not equivocate to everything being both wrong and right.

Another good example is what Julirs said before (i take your example Julirs, but it could have been many other people) . Julirs has good reasons to believe that this could easily end up in a bad way, and that in her personal philosophy, internal values, or whatever, she believes that this experiment should not be done. On the other side, i believe that it is possible to try it out, and avoid most of the bad sides. Now, who am I to say that Julirs is right or wrong?? And who would she be to say that i am completely wrong?? I believe her logic is not bad at all, and so is mine. We just dont share the same values and dont have the same appreciation of the risk versus value of this experiment. That doesnt make her or me right and the other wrong!

The "who's to say?" argument was a pet peeve of my Philopsophy professor. In many cases, the person "who is to say" is the person with the most experience. If I were on a surgeon's table, I wouldn't want the surgeon to turn to the anesthetist and ask how to proceed, since his opinion is as valuable as hers.

Just to make sure my thoughts are clear enough: there is a fine difference between arguing over something undone, which is heavily linked to personal vision, values, principles, philosophy, than judging and discussing about a proven fact like if chameleons need UVBs to live a healthy life or not!! Its not because i do not share the same point of view or internal value with others that the other peoples values and beliefs arent worth anything!!

I recognize that you haven't done anything at this point. I disagree with your thought process.

Just like if someone believes they should remain virgin until they are married, i do not share the same point of view, but its their choice and i respect it!! Or if you like the Nissan 350Z and that i prefer the Mazda Rx8, i can still understand why you like the 350Z! And theres no link to science! Its all about points of view.

I disagree with your analogy. Making a personal choice for yourself is certainly your right. I do not think that compares to risking the safety and well being of an animal that does not have a choice in the matter.

Of course, there may be people who are completely right, or completely wrong. Maybe Julirs is completely right, and so are you, and maybe i am completely wrong! But who are WE to judge that??? What gives you the right to say that i am wrong to think that? You may BELIEVE that i am wrong, that my logic is flawed, but you cant say for sure that I am wrong! Until then, my personal choice is to respect everyones point of view, to consider all these ways to see things, and then choose what i prefer. That doesnt mean that others are good or bad! Once again, things are not all black nor all white!

Here we are again with the "opinion" and "who's to say" arguments. I won't explain that again.

I will say that if you had started out saying: "I plan to put a chameleon and a day gecko in the same enclosure, and I realize that it may risk one or both of their lives or well being but it will entertain me so I believe the risk is worthwhile." Then I would have had nothing to say to that. It's the flawed logic that I felt the need to argue with.

Teresa

 

[morpheon]

Woah, i wonder what is your main goal is multi-quoting me that much!! However, since i can not find the answer, i will try to clarify a few things Teresa.

First, i do not believe that the various exportations of live chameleons to the US and Europe to the petstore were initially done for the purpose of repopulating the chameleons of Madagascar, Senegal, Africa, etc. Instead, i believe it was simply for the human's desire to domesticate a very interesting animal, just like animals have "always" been domesticated by humans. Of course, that doesn't apply to the various universities receiving chameleons, so did any laboratories, and more. But when chameleons are exported to petstores, i don't see it as a way to repopulate. And if you look to the first statistics related to chameleon exportation (back in the 1990ies), 90% of the chameleons exported to the United States died in the first year (i have a reference for that, by the way). So i sincerely doubt that the "repopulation argument" can be applied here, as i doubt it would be worth it to get a few of the 10% back to Madagascar. I also wonder how many captive breed chameleons have been sent back to Madagascar, Senegal, Africa, Yemen, and more, but i doubt that there has been a lot!

My logic about the past risk versus the actual risk related to chameleon breeding is simple. In the past, many people said that exporting chameleon wasn't a good idea, that it wouldn't work, that chameleons only lived for a few months, and more. However, a few breeders believed that it was a viable project. They believed that it could work, and they were right. Yes, there has been a lot of casualties and death related to that matter, but history has shown that chameleons can live a good and healthy life in captivity.

Like this example, i believe that chameleons can sometimes cohabitate with other animals (being other chameleons, phelsumas, or other animals that i just don't know yet). A few underground projects have shown that some cohabitations are possible, when they are done right. I am not only talking about a couple of melleris living together, but up to 15 male pardalis living together, several females pardalis together. Just in case you doubt that the validity of such information, let me just tell you that the persons i am talking about, even if i won't explicitly name them, are as talented, skilled, experienced, add the adjective you want, than Kinyonga, Chris Anderson, Julirs, Jannb, and more. I am talking about people reading books and forums for a few hours a day, with 10 to 20 years of experience, who successfuly breed parsonii, and more. And these projects of hordes living together have been run for over 4 years now, so please, don't doubt about that. Did you know that such projects were viable into a house?? I did.

Now, if 15 male pardalis can live together, if they are properly introduced into the same habitat, why couldn't a single male pardalis live with a Phelsuma if things are done correctly?? Just like many people wanted domesticated chameleons into their house back in the 1990, i would like to know if chameleons can cohabitate with a few animals, and Phelsumas are part of it. And i must admit that i am amazed that such project has caused so much talking when it comes to TWO animals who will most likely be stressed a little in the worst case (or bitten), but most likely not killed, compared to 90% of WC importations dieing in the first years of chameleon breeding in the United States. I am talking about TWO ANIMALS, when you are seeing thousands of exportations dieing within a year.

Also, when you compare my project to the initial project of domesticating chameleons, you should easily notice that i have done a LOT of research before even thinking of starting this project. I have read a lot of articles, a lot of forums, spoken to many experienced and knowledgeable breeders, to people who tried similar projects. So compared to the times when people didn't even know if chameleons needed UVB lighting, i am not that bad!

So why do i want to try this project? Because i want to know more about chameleon husbandry and cohabitation possibilities. Because yes, science is partially about adding more data to the community. Because, like it or not, there is a true demand and desire in the public to see such cohabitation. Because i have some evidence that this project may actually work. Because i am curious. Because i would like to give to the chameleon community a little of everything they have given to me. Because research is a big part of who i am. Because i feel there is a lot of misconceptions in the chameleon world, and cohabitation is a part of it. And lastly, because i believe i try this project without risking too much for the animals i have.

Of course, that doesn't mean that i suggest anyone to try this project. However, I believe some people could try the same project and would most likely end up making it viable, just like the three examples i have in mind did and still do by the way!

I am sorry if i missed your point on a few things Teresa. However, i believe that there is a fine line between considering and accepting a different point of view, and trying to absolutely discreditate the work of someone. Therefore, i do not feel that my point of view is in competition with yours, but rather that my point of view needs to be improved (just like yours) and that listening and considering other people's point of view is a good way to enhance my point of view. I just believe that you are NOBODY to judge if your point of view is better than mine, just like I am NOBODY to judge if yours is better than mine. Therefore, since i can not judge who has the best point of view, the only thing i can do is consider everyone's point of view, and try my best to have the most complete point of view i can have. Tell me Teresa, do you have the capacity to judge if someone's point of view is right or wrong? After all, a point of view is by definition not scientific, but rather personal.

When you say that "The process of science and philopsophy are to try to filter out the untruths in cases where we still don't know the truth. That does not equivocate to everything being both wrong and right.", i do not completely agree with your statement, but i'll try my best to explain what i believe in: in fact, in science, there isn't any "truth". Instead, there are theories that just haven't been disproved yet (see Kuhn, 1970). I don't know if you understand the nuance, but since in SCIENCE there isn't any universal truth, how can in PHILOSOPHY be any truth?? Science and philosophy aren't the same at all, and rare are the philosophy facts that have been proved right (or, in that matter, not proved partially wrong)! Also, when you look into science (or philosophy) debates, you should easily notice that even the disproved hypothesis are often partially right. Various reasons can explain why they are "partially right and partially wrong", but some of them can be methodological reasons. For an easy example, we can go back to the mind versus body debate. History has once again proved that both sides were partially right, and partially wrong, as there is in fact a link between the mind and the body, and just not one or the other. Their hypothesis were just incomplete. They lack a variable, or a part of the explanation, just like my thought is probably not made of the whole set of variables related to the cohabitation of a phelsuma and a pardalis. That doesn't make me completely wrong, so does it for you!! Then once again, who am I to judge if someone is completely wrong or completely right?? And who are you Teresa to judge if any philosophy concern is completely right or completely wrong, just like on this subject of cohabitation?? Remember that so far, you are disagreeing with this experiment, while i have three examples of this exact experiment being successful! And even with these three examples, i am not willing to say that I am completely right. And even if i would try it and make it successful, i wouldn't be pretending that i am completely right!!

About "who's to say", i will reply a few things. First, it is not because someone is more experienced that they are necessary better. Just take a look at your job environment. Take the oldest people, and compare them to some of the new workers. If you work for a big company, you should easily find that experience isn't granting skills. For example, in psychology, some of the most reputated authors in psychology will easily admit that sometimes very young students are MUCH BETTER than most clinicians of 20 years of experience. I believe this can apply here in chameleon husbandry. Also, 2) considering everyone's opinion in order to make your own mind is usually the best thing to do, as beginners may have great ideas. Therefore, it is not because i have studied psychology at university for 5 years that i wouldn't listen to you if you had any suggestion in order to make me a better clinician.

I am sorry if you disagree with my thought process, but this is your right! I must admit that i like arguying and listening to other's point of view, as this may help enhance mine. Therefore, i thank you. Ultimately, i may sound selfish, but i don't really care if you agree or not with me. My main concern here is simply to improve myself, and not to have everyone agree with me and behave like me (ooooh, this sounds like a very bad idea!!!)

 

[morpheon]

(Did you guys know that posts can only be 10,000 characters long?? My initial post was 10,998 characters long haha)

Finally, i do not plan on saying that "I plan to put a chameleon and a day gecko in the same enclosure, and I realize that it may risk one or both of their lives or well being but it will entertain me so I believe the risk is worthwhile.". However, would you accept this thought: "I plan to put a chameleon and a day gecko in the same enclosure, while realizing that it may risk one or both health or well being, in order to learn more about the possibily of captive cohabitation just like it has been suggested by various datas, while doing my best to make sure that no fatal issue will be happening" ?


Of course, you will most likely wonder: "but how is he going to be able to make sure that no fatal issue will be happening??". I'd answer to that that first i plan on showing each others through some mesh a few times, to see how they react. Then, i will most likely put two enclosures in front of each other. After that, i may let the Phelsuma enter the chameleon's enclosure for a few minutes... then hours... then a day. Remove both, see how their behavior is changing... then reinsert, rince and repeat, up to possibly let both live together until death separates them. And obviously, i plan on doing the first few steps only when i will have the time to see both react to each other, in case that any agression signs would occur. Therefore, the really worst i have to fear is a bite, and not the death of one of them, because i should be able to take one of them out in a very short time. Then again, there will be no guarantee of success nor of failure, just like there is no guarantee that when you bring a chameleon to your house they will survive for a few years. That applies to wild caught animals, and even to CB chameleons as well...

 

[KingJulien]

I don't want to get into a discussion on existentialism. I had a friend who majored in philosophy and who I constantly egged on into (friendly) debate and would say something along the lines of "overthinking is good sometimes but it doesn't get anything done."

Ask yourself this: If you had a cold and a medication were proven to be deadly and harmful some unknown number of times vs. 3 times it was known not to be harmful, would you take it?

I wouldn't.

Since quoting seems to make you so touchy "I just believe that you are NOBODY to judge if your point of view is better than mine, just like I am NOBODY to judge if yours is better than mine. Therefore, since i can not judge who has the best point of view, the only thing i can do is consider everyone's point of view, and try my best to have the most complete point of view i can have. Tell me Teresa, do you have the capacity to judge if someone's point of view is right or wrong? After all, a point of view is by definition not scientific, but rather personal."

I'm picturing the last time my son had a tantrum and said that I was wrong and his punishment was too severe. He insisted it was too severe. I said "I'm sorry you feel that way." He said "But I KNOW it's too severe!" I put him on time out for an hour. Sometimes one person does get to judge while the other doesn't. Obviously, in this case you are free to do what you want. All I'm saying is that some opinions are correct and some are incorrect. Some are right and some are wrong. A point of view is often based on more than just "personal" ideas. It can be based on experinece, knowledge, etc. All these things are not the same person to person.

 

[Syn]

Some of these analogies are ridiculous...

 

[morpheon]

If you have read some stories of chameleons cohabitating with phelsumas, please, tell me where to find them as i would love to read the stories and talk with their authors.

I know some experiments have been done between many and countless species, but this one in particular (phelsuma-pardalis), i have trouble finding some. :S My worry here is that many people are believing that it won't work without having any real data about this exact combo. Therefore, i actually have no proof that it has been proven to be deadly, since i can hardly find any stories about it!

About point of views, most point of views are actually based on uncounscious conflicts, rather than on true experience and knowledge. And then again, some "experience" are so much altered and distorted by the person's mind that they aren't true anymore. You can read Kernberg & Caligor, 2005, Clarkin et al. (2007), and Semerari et al (2003) on that matter, and i'm sure i could dig up many more authors on that subject (Fonagy and Target also wrote about that, but i don't have the exact reference). In fact, some people just ignore why they are believing in something, why they are acting in some way, etc. How do i know that? Because my doctoral essay is actually talking about that! Based on that matter, my goal is to find out WHY people believe my experiment could not work, and then if the person has REAL data and/or stories to give me, then it will help me! Otherwise, if it's based on nothing factual except than the so-often-said "chameleons always live alone because they are territorial", then i won't waste my time listening to that!

 

[JaxyGirl]

Wow, even though this thread has been somewhat interesting and rather long. It is however getting overly deep and redundant. There comes a point when people need to agree to disagree and move on.

 

[morpheon]

Wow, even though this thread has been somewhat interesting and rather long. It is however getting overly deep and redundant. There comes a point when people need to agree to disagree and move on.

This is something i definately need to work on!

 

[JaxyGirl]

This is something i definately need to work on!

LOL! At least you have a good sense of humor and I must add that you are a super writer. You should print out all your responses. It would make one hell of a thesis report

 

[KingJulien]

If you have read some stories of chameleons cohabitating with phelsumas, please, tell me where to find them as i would love to read the stories and talk with their authors.

I know some experiments have been done between many and countless species, but this one in particular (phelsuma-pardalis), i have trouble finding some. :S My worry here is that many people are believing that it won't work without having any real data about this exact combo. Therefore, i actually have no proof that it has been proven to be deadly, since i can hardly find any stories about it!

About point of views, most point of views are actually based on uncounscious conflicts, rather than on true experience and knowledge. And then again, some "experience" are so much altered and distorted by the person's mind that they aren't true anymore. You can read Kernberg & Caligor, 2005, Clarkin et al. (2007), and Semerari et al (2003) on that matter, and i'm sure i could dig up many more authors on that subject (Fonagy and Target also wrote about that, but i don't have the exact reference). In fact, some people just ignore why they are believing in something, why they are acting in some way, etc. How do i know that? Because my doctoral essay is actually talking about that! Based on that matter, my goal is to find out WHY people believe my experiment could not work, and then if the person has REAL data and/or stories to give me, then it will help me! Otherwise, if it's based on nothing factual except than the so-often-said "chameleons always live alone because they are territorial", then i won't waste my time listening to that!

So I guess you have a unconcious conflict with that?

That wasn't my argument at all, but ok dude.