Canadian Economy Pricing

chequepoint

New Member
Can anyone tell me a valid reason why F. pardalis are worth $300? $475? $600!?!

Trace
The work that goes into breeding them, raising them, feeding them properly. The time and effort that goes into their parents. Local Purity. Equipment costs.

Also just as important, is the fact that by keeping the prices at that level, you're raising the bar of admission to prevent impulse purchases and more dead chameleons.

Finally, a level of profitability has to be maintained to ensure a quality supply of available animals. People don't breed the other species because the price is too low, leaving us with nothing but WC animals.

The economy is crashing in general because everybody wants to pay nothing for everything, and they want to be paid top dollar at their jobs. There is no way to support both of those ideals at the same time.
 
I think you need a basic lesson in economics.... notice the price of gas in the US? its dropped more than half the price in over a matter of months... why is this? simple, people aren't driving as much because they don't have the money to spend on the gas. Those of us who need to drive and still have jobs benefit from low gas prices at the pump. Those who have money to still buy chams get a great deal and those of us who can't afford it miss out.

Edit: when the price of gas goes back up.... you aren't gonna see people boycotting the pumps.... they'll suck it up and pay full price again....
 

jernlee

New Member
I started out raising parrots. Before you know it I had 40 pairs of macaws 140 pairs of all kinds of parrots. I did it for the love of it. When I started the macaws sold for 1000.00 each out of the nest. 15 years later everyone was raising them and selling them for 450.00 out of the nest. Supply and demand. I am sorry , but the average person will hunt for the cheapest price. That is what keeps walmart alive and well. That is way all the jobs are going to the illegal people that are here in the usa. Because they are cheaper, not more knowledgeable about what they are doing but CHEAPER. Sorry because I truly think you get what you pay for too. I lost 30,000.00 the last year I raised parrots. But I truly enjoyed it and it take alot of time and love to take care of animals proberly. My 2 cents
jerry:)
 

FOREVER ENDEAVOR

New Member
I think you need a basic lesson in economics.... notice the price of gas in the US? its dropped more than half the price in over a matter of months... why is this? simple, people aren't driving as much because they don't have the money to spend on the gas. Those of us who need to drive and still have jobs benefit from low gas prices at the pump. Those who have money to still buy chams get a great deal and those of us who can't afford it miss out.

Edit: when the price of gas goes back up.... you aren't gonna see people boycotting the pumps.... they'll suck it up and pay full price again....


really???:D:p
 

chequepoint

New Member
I think you need a lesson in economics if you don't understand the difference between a commodity like oil and a luxury good. The entire market for chameleons is artificial, as they are a completely non-essential item, like the diamond market. The price of diamonds is not controlled by supply and demand, rather controlling internal forces and the perception of scarcity.

The problem with the reptile market is that every person you sell to becomes your competitor, and will even use your name to allow them to compete with you more effectively.
 

ttshibby

Member
Wow, what a heated topic...lol I like it! I agree with both sides.

Basically supply and demand. I understand that alot of breeders are selling "Breeding pairs" and customers are thinking it is really easy to breed and care for chams. Well for alot of those people trying this out, most are going to have problems or lose interest at some point and realize how much work it is.

I believe the market will be driven down becuase of this. Most of the TOP Breeders have sold quite a few breeding pairs to customers who want to try breeding. In return these people will sell quality genetics to thier friends etc. Who is to say people who breed one or 2 pairs wont have the quality of the "reputable" companies. Some may think the opposite. Inexperiance would be the final ticket.

One way of controlling the market is to get more people interested in Chameleons, most people i know (All i guess) Have never even seen a chameleon before, and every one of them think they change color to thier background. Even most people who are disgusted with lizards and reptiles in general, think that chams are pretty amazing after seeing them.

I guess we'll just have to wait and see what happens in the upcoming years, Im sure no one has to worry, there are never too many Chams ;)

Troy
 

jusmebabe

Member
I think you need a basic lesson in economics.... notice the price of gas in the US? its dropped more than half the price in over a matter of months... why is this? simple, people aren't driving as much because they don't have the money to spend on the gas. Those of us who need to drive and still have jobs benefit from low gas prices at the pump. Those who have money to still buy chams get a great deal and those of us who can't afford it miss out.

Edit: when the price of gas goes back up.... you aren't gonna see people boycotting the pumps.... they'll suck it up and pay full price again....
The reason for gas price drops is nothing to do with people not driving as much. I drove out of town to pick up a snake on wed (day before turkey day. A normally 1 hour trip took me 2 1/2 hours each way. I was in traffic the minute I left Salinas til I reached San Lorenzo.
The gas industry is trying to appease the government which is looking at alternative fuels. Don't ever believe less consumer consumption is driving the price of fuel down.
:D
 
I believe the market will be driven down becuase of this. Most of the TOP Breeders have sold quite a few breeding pairs to customers who want to try breeding. In return these people will sell quality genetics to thier friends etc. Who is to say people who breed one or 2 pairs wont have the quality of the "reputable" companies. Some may think the opposite. Inexperiance would be the final ticket.

Troy
This is my line of thought too. Yes, people like to pay for quality, but, the thing a lot of people don't understand is, the smaller breeders charging less have the same bloodlines as the larger breeders. They do this to compete for sales in an already small market. So why pay more for the same product? The saying, "you get what you pay for" doesn't factor in this equation since it's all coming from linages that the big breeders have. Why pay $300+ when others are selling for under $200.

Once a standard is set in a market, why pay more when you can get it for less? People will wait around for the smaller breeders to produce offspring at $150-$200 each.
 

Dsignrguy

Member
yup. simple economics. supply and demand. With our current worldwide economic situation , you will see several things happen with the chameleon market as thing get worse (and they WILL get MUCH worse):

The number of people with a spare $300+ for a chameleon will be drastically reduced.

The number of people with the spare $$$ to PROPERLY care for a cham they spent $300+ on will be drastically reduced.

Due to the recent gain in popularity of our hobby, the supply of $300+ quality chams is on the rise.

When the number of $300+ chams surpasses the number of $300+ buyers, the $300+ breeder will be in trouble. (ask the big 3 about this one)

Some breeders will NOT drop their prices AND go under.

Some breeders(that can afford it) will NOT drop their prices, and take huge losses and/or severely scale back their operations.

some breeders will drop their prices or go under.

some breeders will drop their prices AND go under

periodically (coinciding with breeders being in trouble) we will see good quantities of beautiful chams hit the market for "great" prices.


when the economy recovers, everything (including the price) will eventually come back again.


prices on certain things (like parsons) will not be affected.
 

Trace

Captain Awesome
Since it was touched upon... for the record, I personally know most Canadian pardalis breeders; I've been keeping a looooooooooooong time and it's still a pretty small community up here compared to the U.S. A lot of them are close friends and whom are aware of my differing opinions. Pricing aside, I give props to all the Canadian keepers for advancing the hobby up here. No immature digs were aimed at anybody in particular.

cost of husbandry,price paid for breeders,price of importation, gas, ....
The work that goes into breeding them, raising them, feeding them properly. The time and effort that goes into their parents. Local Purity. Equipment costs.
If that were true; then why are calyptratus only $25? Please explain that disparity. The costs are the same to raise a baby to selling age. It's not ANY more difficult to breed Panthers over Veileds. BTW I'm not singling out anybody in particular, that was a question for all.

Look at all the fancy morphs of Ball Pythons, Leopard Geckos, Beardies, Cresties et.al. Those prices have dropped considerably on those reptiles and yes, I've seen the same worries about decreasing prices for them over the years. I've not seen the same concerns about calyptratus. Why haven't we seen that with Panthers? Is the price drop finally starting now because there is a glut in the market or have "breeders" of pardalis been artificially keeping prices high al a reasons chequepoint stated.

While on the subject of scarcity... why do freshly hatched baby Panther and Veiled threads get so many more hits/replies over breeding or baby pics of some odd species? There are a few members of this board who are truly doing some interesting things with chameleons and those people are constantly overlooked.

I'm still waiting for definitive answers to my original questions, but so far this has been an interesting debate. Thanks folks! :D

Cheers,
t
 
yup. simple economics. supply and demand. With our current worldwide economic situation , you will see several things happen with the chameleon market as thing get worse (and they WILL get MUCH worse):

The number of people with a spare $300+ for a chameleon will be drastically reduced.

The number of people with the spare $$$ to PROPERLY care for a cham they spent $300+ on will be drastically reduced.

Due to the recent gain in popularity of our hobby, the supply of $300+ quality chams is on the rise.

When the number of $300+ chams surpasses the number of $300+ buyers, the $300+ breeder will be in trouble. (ask the big 3 about this one)

Some breeders will NOT drop their prices AND go under.

Some breeders(that can afford it) will NOT drop their prices, and take huge losses and/or severely scale back their operations.

some breeders will drop their prices or go under.

some breeders will drop their prices AND go under

periodically (coinciding with breeders being in trouble) we will see good quantities of beautiful chams hit the market for "great" prices.


when the economy recovers, everything (including the price) will eventually come back again.


prices on certain things (like parsons) will not be affected.
I couldn't have typed that any better...
 

FOREVER ENDEAVOR

New Member
The reason for gas price drops is nothing to do with people not driving as much. I drove out of town to pick up a snake on wed (day before turkey day. A normally 1 hour trip took me 2 1/2 hours each way. I was in traffic the minute I left Salinas til I reached San Lorenzo.
The gas industry is trying to appease the government which is looking at alternative fuels. Don't ever believe less consumer consumption is driving the price of fuel down.
:D


its all a conspiracey:rolleyes::D...people can spend the billions of dollars normally spent each year durring the hollidays on gifts,food,traveling ect if they cant afford to pay for gas...noitice every year around this time gas goes down?... .. its an effort to "boost" the already depleated ecomomy..all we can do is watch as they pull the strings..imho:D
 
If that were true; then why are calyptratus only $25? Please explain that disparity. The costs are the same to raise a baby to selling age. It's not ANY more difficult to breed Panthers over Veileds.
I'm going to agree with Trace here. I've heard that Velieds eat a lot more then Panthers, so the cost of raising the chameleon doesn't factor. They require the same caging, lighting, heating, suppliments... and so on...
 

FOREVER ENDEAVOR

New Member
Since it was touched upon... for the record, I personally know most Canadian pardalis breeders; I've been keeping a looooooooooooong time and it's still a pretty small community up here compared to the U.S. A lot of them are close friends and whom are aware of my differing opinions. Pricing aside, I give props to all the Canadian keepers for advancing the hobby up here. No immature digs were aimed at anybody in particular.





If that were true; then why are calyptratus only $25? Please explain that disparity. The costs are the same to raise a baby to selling age. It's not ANY more difficult to breed Panthers over Veileds. BTW I'm not singling out anybody in particular, that was a question for all.

Look at all the fancy morphs of Ball Pythons, Leopard Geckos, Beardies, Cresties et.al. Those prices have dropped considerably on those reptiles and yes, I've seen the same worries about decreasing prices for them over the years. I've not seen the same concerns about calyptratus. Why haven't we seen that with Panthers? Is the price drop finally starting now because there is a glut in the market or have "breeders" of pardalis been artificially keeping prices high al a reasons chequepoint stated.

While on the subject of scarcity... why do freshly hatched baby Panther and Veiled threads get so many more hits/replies over breeding or baby pics of some odd species? There are a few members of this board who are truly doing some interesting things with chameleons and those people are constantly overlooked.

I'm still waiting for definitive answers to my original questions, but so far this has been an interesting debate. Thanks folks! :D

Cheers,
t


sorry, I hope you have a sense of humor


http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/155202
 

FOREVER ENDEAVOR

New Member
I'm going to agree with Trace here. I've heard that Velieds eat a lot more then Panthers, so the cost of raising the chameleon doesn't factor. They require the same caging, lighting, heating, suppliments... and so on...
agreed, but in today's market the going rate for a Yemen is 30-100... that's why they are sold at that price,.. panthers go for 250+ that's why they are sold at that price.. i love both species but if i had to choose one i would go with my panthers(i think 9 out of 10 average people would agree)..i think simply for that reason alone, they are more valuable its just the way it is..until the "standard" is changed it will stay this way.. as stated fluctuations will happen along side the economy's ups and downs..
 
agreed, but in today's market the going rate for a Yemen is 30-100... that's why they are sold at that price,.. panthers go for 250+ that's why they are sold at that price.. i love both species but if i had to choose one i would go with my panthers(i think 9 out of 10 average people would agree)..i think simply for that reason alone, they are more valuable its just the way it is..until the "standard" is changed it will stay this way.. as stated fluctuations will happen along side the economy's ups and downs..
Yes I prefer Panthers over Velied too but with less people buying Veiled and more people buying Panthers, that obviously will drive the price down from supply and demand. That's another reason Panther pricing is in trouble. It's already started and I'm sure it won't get better.

Breeders sticking to their guns, trying to keep pricing up at $300+ will eventually have to sell cheaper to compete with the market or in worse case, lose customers altogether.
 

ChromaChameleons

New Member
Wow... some interesting opinions... loosely supported at that.

Veiled chameleons lay more eggs and have a lower mortality rate. They are bound to be cheaper than Panthers. Personally, I think they should cost more than we see in the retail world, but thats only my opinion.

I would also argue that other chameleon species are dramatically underpriced and that is evidenced by the lack of domestic breeding programs.

Last year , the wholesalers in Eastern Canada had driven the wholesale price on Veileds down to $16 each. It forced a lot of veiled breeders to drop out of breeding them. This year , with the reduced supply, the wholesale price is back up to $30+.

I can't imagine how a breeder of Panthers can support a program of 16+ separate bloodlines across 2 locales and not require a return on investment. If cheap chams are so easy and cheap to breed , then I'd like to know why 3 breeders in Eastern Canada have quite the business in the past 6 months.

If the market demand shrinks faster than the loss of supply , I will have to re evaluate my business plan. So far , I'm tapped out for the Christmas season and already presold well into February.

And for all the basement breeders... feel free to refer your customers my way, when they are looking for a second bloodline.

Lastly, I still maintain that $300 is a fair price for a Panther , of which , I can produce a history and bloodline lineage. I don't line breed due to lack of genetic depth. I have deliberately invested in sufficient bloodlines to take my programs well into the future. Thats not greed... thats care and concern for the hobby!
 

chequepoint

New Member
1) Yemens have larger clutches
2) It is much easier to get away with inbreeding and generate a massive breeding operation with minimal investment in bloodlines, as nobody tracks or cares at all.
3) Pet stores will buy Yemens at 2-3 weeks old, because they are far easier to sell than panthers at that age. They start out as green chameleons, and end up as green chameleons. Its an easy sell to an uninformed consumer. You can churn them out in mass quantities and unload them with minimal food and time investment. They are essentially disposable.
 
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