Dragon Strand Chameleon Cage Open Forum

DeremensisBlue

Chameleon Enthusiast
Site Sponsor
The Dragon Strand chameleon caging company was created to solve specific problems in the caging available to chameleon keepers. Before I started this company, the cages commercially available to us were from three companies that were competing to bring the lowest price cage to market. There is definitely a need for a low price cage as that is a good gateway into the hobby. But you get lower prices by cutting corners and I decided I was going to offer a product based on the quality and useful features I wanted in the cages for my chameleons. Thus Dragon Strand was born. Here is a list of the specific problems I wanted to solve and the eventual solutions:

1 – A cage set-up that would make raising baby chameleons up separately easy. The nursery cage system was actually the first official Dragon Strand product!

2 –A rack compatible system to allow breeders to have an organized and clean looking set up. This cage system needed to have both visual isolation and keep mist inside the cage. This ended up being the Breeder series.

3 – A system for building a landscape along the walls and firmly anchoring horizontal branches. The Dragon Ledges, which are finishing the patent process, solved this.

4 – A rust proof cage. While the cages at the time advertised certain aspects of their cage being rust proof, there was always another component that wasn’t. Literally, all cages had a rusting piece! I had zinc plated hinges when I started Dragon Strand and finally was able to switch over at the beginning of 2015 to the industries first commercially available rust proof cage. Since then my cages have been able to be used for outdoor and greenhouse use.

5 – A display worthy cage which kept mist inside. The white PVC was functional, but wasn’t the best for display. The Clearside line gave us the ability to keep mist in without obstructing the view.


As each aspect of the cage was designed for a purpose and has been tested in actual use, I made the offer to ask me any questions you had. So here is an open forum to ask any questions you have about Dragon Strand cages or the caging industry in general. We can kick it off with some questions by Cyberlocc.


Question 1:

“I have asked you a few questions before, I don’t much need to ask you though. As like you said your cages are tried and true, I can see the tons and tons of breeders and keepers endorsing your cages. Plus I listen to your podcast and see you around the community.


Since you said ask though I will. 1 thing really got my attention with his cages, the 22 inch depth. So I get the space constraints ect, but is the 17 inch depth of the large breeder not a little small for a panther? Why not a 22x22x45 or even 22x20x45? I know you have the extra large breeder but that wont fit a rack, a deeper large would fit a 24 deep rack."



When designing the Breeder series I wanted to design for a commonly available rack system. The 18” rack system is much more common than the 24” rack system. It is easier to find and has much better pricing. The 18” deep baker’s rack was the natural choice to wrap a caging series around. There was the added component of the additional cost for materials to add six inches to the depth of each cage which would make it more difficult to be marketable.

Panther males are able to be housed in a 17” deep cage. Although we humans see an enclosed box remember that from a chameleon’s view of the world a good day is when they can eat and not be eaten. The cage is a trap if they feel exposed and is home if they feel secure. The solid sides provide three directions that they do not have to worry about. If they have plants or other cover to protect them from the front they can feel secure. We can do this in 17”. The chameleon body language says it all. If they are unhappy they will be crawling the sides, top, and front. If they are content they will hang out on their branch. That said, there are always individuals that do not calm down. Even 22” or 24” would not be enough for them. I can say that 17” has been used successfully in the majority of cases both in my testing and in other breeding set-ups, but I cannot guarantee that every chameleon will settle down. In those cases, though, it may not be the depth that is the problem. A chameleon’s sense of security is a complicated thing like it is with any animal.

As you noted, I do offer the Breeder series in a 23.75” x 23” footprint which gives 6” of extra space if that is desirable. But this is for people who want to go wild with their plantscape design! I can make any of these cages for the 24” racks if that is desired, but I wouldn’t want to stock a whole different set of those cages because the demand is low. I work to carry inventory of my entire line. But I offer so many products that when I get a little behind it is a lot of overtime work to catch up! Although, the X-Large Breeder does fine on a 18" or 24" deep rack with some overhang. I have a couple of them on a 18" deep rack and it isn't a functional problem if I can get over a little tweak on my OCD.


Question 2.

"Also, another one. So for the nursery cages, why the 15.75, do you notice that the babys actually use all that space? I have seen a few people that breed panthers in the Exoterra small 8x8x12s or even the 8x8x8s. So why not go with a 12 high so you can fit 32 per rack?"



For the nursery cages the trick was to design a cage size that would fit eight across a standard baker’s rack and still give enough interior space to provide some gradients. Each cage is pretty small so it would be easy to over heat or over UVB the inside. The larger I made it the easier it would be for the breeder to create choices for their little baby. So I made it as tall as I could and still get three rows per rack. 12” high starts making it difficult to have a good UVB gradient without adding another layer of screen or raising the UVB light higher above the cage which then uses up vertical space anyways. Yes, it could have been accomplished, but the trickier the product is to use the less elegant the solution!


Question 3.

"Again on the Nurserys, do you use mesh that wont let FFs out? Ever though of plexi on the front doors and the bottom door with a fine mesh to keep FFs in and give ventilation while keeping high humidity for babies?"



There are two main ways to keep fruit flies in these cages. I either design a cage that keeps them in or else I find a way to keep them from wanting to get out. Since adding a small bottle cap with a piece of fruit in the cage will remove the desire for the fruit flies to escape I decided it best to offer that as a behavior based solution. If I was going to advertise this as a fruit fly keeping solution the top would have to be fine mesh as well and then my UVB transmission would get cut way down. The design would now be much more complicated, expensive and becomes overkill for the reason of keeping fruitflies in. The cap of fruit is so much more simple and it gives the flies nutrition and, if placed in the branches, keeps the fruit flies from walking across the poop on the bottom of the cage. So, this is one of those decisions that every designer has to make. I do not know whether I am correct in this or not, but I suspect that a fine mesh screen cage that can contain D. melanogaster would be priced out of the market.


And so, here is the open forum. If anyone has questions about cage design go ahead and ask. I will offer insight into why things are as they are!
 
The Dragon Strand chameleon caging company was created to solve specific problems in the caging available to chameleon keepers. Before I started this company, the cages commercially available to us were from three companies that were competing to bring the lowest price cage to market. There is definitely a need for a low price cage as that is a good gateway into the hobby. But you get lower prices by cutting corners and I decided I was going to offer a product based on the quality and useful features I wanted in the cages for my chameleons. Thus Dragon Strand was born. Here is a list of the specific problems I wanted to solve and the eventual solutions:

1 – A cage set-up that would make raising baby chameleons up separately easy. The nursery cage system was actually the first official Dragon Strand product!

2 –A rack compatible system to allow breeders to have an organized and clean looking set up. This cage system needed to have both visual isolation and keep mist inside the cage. This ended up being the Breeder series.

3 – A system for building a landscape along the walls and firmly anchoring horizontal branches. The Dragon Ledges, which are finishing the patent process, solved this.

4 – A rust proof cage. While the cages at the time advertised certain aspects of their cage being rust proof, there was always another component that wasn’t. Literally, all cages had a rusting piece! I had zinc plated hinges when I started Dragon Strand and finally was able to switch over at the beginning of 2015 to the industries first commercially available rust proof cage. Since then my cages have been able to be used for outdoor and greenhouse use.

5 – A display worthy cage which kept mist inside. The white PVC was functional, but wasn’t the best for display. The Clearside line gave us the ability to keep mist in without obstructing the view.


As each aspect of the cage was designed for a purpose and has been tested in actual use, I made the offer to ask me any questions you had. So here is an open forum to ask any questions you have about Dragon Strand cages or the caging industry in general. We can kick it off with some questions by Cyberlocc.


Question 1:

“I have asked you a few questions before, I don’t much need to ask you though. As like you said your cages are tried and true, I can see the tons and tons of breeders and keepers endorsing your cages. Plus I listen to your podcast and see you around the community.


Since you said ask though I will. 1 thing really got my attention with his cages, the 22 inch depth. So I get the space constraints ect, but is the 17 inch depth of the large breeder not a little small for a panther? Why not a 22x22x45 or even 22x20x45? I know you have the extra large breeder but that wont fit a rack, a deeper large would fit a 24 deep rack."



When designing the Breeder series I wanted to design for a commonly available rack system. The 18” rack system is much more common than the 24” rack system. It is easier to find and has much better pricing. The 18” deep baker’s rack was the natural choice to wrap a caging series around. There was the added component of the additional cost for materials to add six inches to the depth of each cage which would make it more difficult to be marketable.

Panther males are able to be housed in a 17” deep cage. Although we humans see an enclosed box remember that from a chameleon’s view of the world a good day is when they can eat and not be eaten. The cage is a trap if they feel exposed and is home if they feel secure. The solid sides provide three directions that they do not have to worry about. If they have plants or other cover to protect them from the front they can feel secure. We can do this in 17”. The chameleon body language says it all. If they are unhappy they will be crawling the sides, top, and front. If they are content they will hang out on their branch. That said, there are always individuals that do not calm down. Even 22” or 24” would not be enough for them. I can say that 17” has been used successfully in the majority of cases both in my testing and in other breeding set-ups, but I cannot guarantee that every chameleon will settle down. In those cases, though, it may not be the depth that is the problem. A chameleon’s sense of security is a complicated thing like it is with any animal.

As you noted, I do offer the Breeder series in a 23.75” x 23” footprint which gives 6” of extra space if that is desirable. But this is for people who want to go wild with their plantscape design! I can make any of these cages for the 24” racks if that is desired, but I wouldn’t want to stock a whole different set of those cages because the demand is low. I work to carry inventory of my entire line. But I offer so many products that when I get a little behind it is a lot of overtime work to catch up! Although, the X-Large Breeder does fine on a 18" or 24" deep rack with some overhang. I have a couple of them on a 18" deep rack and it isn't a functional problem if I can get over a little tweak on my OCD.


Question 2.

"Also, another one. So for the nursery cages, why the 15.75, do you notice that the babys actually use all that space? I have seen a few people that breed panthers in the Exoterra small 8x8x12s or even the 8x8x8s. So why not go with a 12 high so you can fit 32 per rack?"



For the nursery cages the trick was to design a cage size that would fit eight across a standard baker’s rack and still give enough interior space to provide some gradients. Each cage is pretty small so it would be easy to over heat or over UVB the inside. The larger I made it the easier it would be for the breeder to create choices for their little baby. So I made it as tall as I could and still get three rows per rack. 12” high starts making it difficult to have a good UVB gradient without adding another layer of screen or raising the UVB light higher above the cage which then uses up vertical space anyways. Yes, it could have been accomplished, but the trickier the product is to use the less elegant the solution!


Question 3.

"Again on the Nurserys, do you use mesh that wont let FFs out? Ever though of plexi on the front doors and the bottom door with a fine mesh to keep FFs in and give ventilation while keeping high humidity for babies?"



There are two main ways to keep fruit flies in these cages. I either design a cage that keeps them in or else I find a way to keep them from wanting to get out. Since adding a small bottle cap with a piece of fruit in the cage will remove the desire for the fruit flies to escape I decided it best to offer that as a behavior based solution. If I was going to advertise this as a fruit fly keeping solution the top would have to be fine mesh as well and then my UVB transmission would get cut way down. The design would now be much more complicated, expensive and becomes overkill for the reason of keeping fruitflies in. The cap of fruit is so much more simple and it gives the flies nutrition and, if placed in the branches, keeps the fruit flies from walking across the poop on the bottom of the cage. So, this is one of those decisions that every designer has to make. I do not know whether I am correct in this or not, but I suspect that a fine mesh screen cage that can contain D. melanogaster would be priced out of the market.


And so, here is the open forum. If anyone has questions about cage design go ahead and ask. I will offer insight into why things are as they are!

Awesome. Thanks for the reply's very much :). This is why you are IMO and always will be the best cage company, both here and on FBook you have always quickly and detailed answered any question I have had :).

I look forward to buying lots of cages from you in the coming months :).
 
Great info, and great questions cyberlocc.

Going into the future, what do you want to focus on? Refining current cages? Designing new ones?

I've been experimenting with a bioactive bottom to my Veiled Chameleon's cage since it sits on a utility sink; do you think you would design any deeper bottoms or bases for Dragon Strand cages, especially the bigger ones like the Atrium line?
 
@DeremensisBlue

I have another question for you actually :).

This is an odd one, I see this practiced a lot with Montanes and was curious if it was possible with like a panther.

So your Medium atrium, Could you stack those 2 high? so for instance, Could I have a wire shelf that is 60 inches long and 6 feet tall, and put 2 on the bottom shelf and 2 on the top shelf? That would allow for 4 chameleons in slightly more wall space then 2 of the breeder series cages.
 
Okay so I am back, I did some math and planning. My suggestion could work, however your cages are a tad too large (or the tray is). If you could make one a tad less wide, like an inch less. With PVC sides, that would be the best breeder cage ever! :). Thats 12 inchs more wall space then your large breeder and you can fit 4 chameleons instead of 2.
 
Hey Bill, regarding your laying box, I see that it's 9 inches deep and I've noticed a lot of sources on here, including the care sheets, say that the minimum depth of a laying bin should be more than that...something like 12-16". I assume you've tested this design thoroughly before selling these, but I'm curious about your thoughts on laying bin depth and such.

I'm doing my homework for a future female adoption ;)
 
@DeremensisBlue

I have another question for you actually :).

This is an odd one, I see this practiced a lot with Montanes and was curious if it was possible with like a panther.

So your Medium atrium, Could you stack those 2 high? so for instance, Could I have a wire shelf that is 60 inches long and 6 feet tall, and put 2 on the bottom shelf and 2 on the top shelf? That would allow for 4 chameleons in slightly more wall space then 2 of the breeder series cages.

When you say stack them two high do you mean
1) physically placing one on top of the other? (yes you can, although that means the bottom one doesn't get lighting unless you put it inside. Not really recommended)
2) Put two together to make one very tall cage? (Yes, in fact, I actually have connector frames already made up just for the purpose of stacking Medium Atrium cages. I just haven't put them up on the site as available yet! This is an expensive cage but very awesome)
3) Put two cages side by side on one level of a rack shelf and then create a second level with a second shelf? (Yes on this one.)

Did I understand the use case you were talking about here?
 
Okay so I am back, I did some math and planning. My suggestion could work, however your cages are a tad too large (or the tray is). If you could make one a tad less wide, like an inch less. With PVC sides, that would be the best breeder cage ever! :). Thats 12 inchs more wall space then your large breeder and you can fit 4 chameleons instead of 2.
I see what you are saying. This can be done if desired! It would just be a special build.
 
Hey Bill, regarding your laying box, I see that it's 9 inches deep and I've noticed a lot of sources on here, including the care sheets, say that the minimum depth of a laying bin should be more than that...something like 12-16". I assume you've tested this design thoroughly before selling these, but I'm curious about your thoughts on laying bin depth and such.

I'm doing my homework for a future female adoption ;)
People measure how deep their chameleon dug when laying eggs and then post that as the required depth. This is what happens when we take an observation and then make a leap of assumption that that is the requirement.
I can only say, at this point, that the 9" laying box depth has had a successful egg digging, laying, and covering back up for pardalis, calyptratus, quadricornis, oustaleti, and melleri.
 
Great info, and great questions cyberlocc.

Going into the future, what do you want to focus on? Refining current cages? Designing new ones?

I've been experimenting with a bioactive bottom to my Veiled Chameleon's cage since it sits on a utility sink; do you think you would design any deeper bottoms or bases for Dragon Strand cages, especially the bigger ones like the Atrium line?

I am exploring better hygiene practices in my continual cage refinement. Now that I pretty much have the cage type foundations that I am happy with and the tools to create beautiful interiors I am working on helping us maintain the chameleon better!

I currently have 6" bases for the Medium Wide and Large Breeder cages and the Medium Tall cages have the 9" laying bin that they can sit on. I have actually made a laying bin for the Medium Atrium for a specific customer that stacked two of the Medium Atriums together. I can make the substrate trays or laying bins in the sizes go the larger cages. I am actually considering doing one for the Large Atrium (at least one for me) to create the ultimate pygmy chameleon habitat! I really like what we can do when we give the chameleons way more space than they need!
 
When you say stack them two high do you mean
1) physically placing one on top of the other? (yes you can, although that means the bottom one doesn't get lighting unless you put it inside. Not really recommended)
2) Put two together to make one very tall cage? (Yes, in fact, I actually have connector frames already made up just for the purpose of stacking Medium Atrium cages. I just haven't put them up on the site as available yet! This is an expensive cage but very awesome)
3) Put two cages side by side on one level of a rack shelf and then create a second level with a second shelf? (Yes on this one.)

Did I understand the use case you were talking about here?

I see what you are saying. This can be done if desired! It would just be a special build.

I think you got what I mean now? Each of the 4 Atriums house a chameleon. As with your current breeder series, you can fit 2 per 4 feet of wall space with a 6ft ceiling. With this idea you could fit 4 chameleons in 5 feet of wall space.


I think you would get quite a few sales with a cage lineup like that :). To give you an example, I wanted to have 6 chams. Using your current breeder larges/mediums, it would take me 12ft for the 6 adult cages. Then add in the baby cages, and juvi cages, we are now at 20ft of wall space for my setup. (I will only be breeding 2 of the 6).

Now if we had a cage that could fit like the compacts and nurserys do, like a med atrium that could fit 2 on a shelf 4 to a rack (60 inch long rack) that would be able to cut the 12 feet down to 10 and add 2 more chameleons.

I seen your medium atrium and this pic that is where I derived the idea :).

Glass%20Terrarium%20Setup.jpg
 
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People measure how deep their chameleon dug when laying eggs and then post that as the required depth. This is what happens when we take an observation and then make a leap of assumption that that is the requirement.
I can only say, at this point, that the 9" laying box depth has had a successful egg digging, laying, and covering back up for pardalis, calyptratus, quadricornis, oustaleti, and melleri.
Thanks for the info, Bill! Looking forward to getting that laying box from you later this year.
 
I think you got what I mean now? Each of the 4 Atriums house a chameleon. As with your current breeder series, you can fit 2 per 4 feet of wall space with a 6ft ceiling. With this idea you could fit 4 chameleons in 5 feet of wall space.


I think you would get quite a few sales with a cage lineup like that :). To give you an example, I wanted to have 6 chams. Using your current breeder larges/mediums, it would take me 12ft for the 6 adult cages. Then add in the baby cages, and juvi cages, we are now at 20ft of wall space for my setup. (I will only be breeding 2 of the 6).

Now if we had a cage that could fit like the compacts and nurserys do, like a med atrium that could fit 2 on a shelf 4 to a rack (60 inch long rack) that would be able to cut the 12 feet down to 10 and add 2 more chameleons.

I seen your medium atrium and this pic that is where I derived the idea :).

Glass%20Terrarium%20Setup.jpg

Just remember to put the males on top. Whether using the Medium Atrium or the X-Large Breeder, your chameleon will gauge how high he is relative to what is going on around him. That is why the shorter Medium Atrium works. The distance to the floor of the cage is much less important than the height of the top perching branch relative to your dog or your head as you walk in.
Females are much more likely to adjust well to being lower than the outside action.

The Medium Wide Breeder fits two to a shelf and works well for females. A 48" wide rack with two males in Large Breeders on top and two females in Medium Wides on the bottom is a common configuration. The 60" wide rack is less common so, once again, I had to choose the most common size to wrap a line around. But I love the 60" space and would highly encourage you to use it!
 
Just remember to put the males on top. Whether using the Medium Atrium or the X-Large Breeder, your chameleon will gauge how high he is relative to what is going on around him. That is why the shorter Medium Atrium works. The distance to the floor of the cage is much less important than the height of the top perching branch relative to your dog or your head as you walk in.
Females are much more likely to adjust well to being lower than the outside action.

The Medium Wide Breeder fits two to a shelf and works well for females. A 48" wide rack with two males in Large Breeders on top and two females in Medium Wides on the bottom is a common configuration. The 60" wide rack is less common so, once again, I had to choose the most common size to wrap a line around. But I love the 60" space and would highly encourage you to use it!

Cool thanks for the tips, and ya Males on top was the plan.

I do like the idea of 2 larges with 2 medium wides. However that is 75 inches of vertical space without lights. That is going to be the tough part for me, the room is old (the house is) and built weird lol. It has about a 3/12 picth, 1 side is 7 ft ceiling and the other is 6 ft and it slopes. The slope goes the short way of the room too, and the 7 foot side has a heater (large propane tough to move) an outside entry door, and a 8 foot long window (2 2ft windows inside, with a non movable 4 in center). So I cant use that side lol, with all the obstacles it would be tough.

If I do decide to do the racked atriums, It could be done with your dimensions, however I would need the drainage trays to be 28.5 like the cage (sideways) is that possible?
 
People measure how deep their chameleon dug when laying eggs and then post that as the required depth. This is what happens when we take an observation and then make a leap of assumption that that is the requirement.
I can only say, at this point, that the 9" laying box depth has had a successful egg digging, laying, and covering back up for pardalis, calyptratus, quadricornis, oustaleti, and melleri.
Hey Bill, quick followup question on this. If you could give me a rough ballpark estimate, how heavy would you say the laying box is when full of dirt? Just need to know when deciding a table to place the enclosure on. Thanks!
 
Hey Bill, quick followup question on this. If you could give me a rough ballpark estimate, how heavy would you say the laying box is when full of dirt? Just need to know when deciding a table to place the enclosure on. Thanks!

Thats a good question. I got another one as well :) Which combos with his, could a Atrium drainage tray hold one of those breeder bins?
 
Hey Bill, quick followup question on this. If you could give me a rough ballpark estimate, how heavy would you say the laying box is when full of dirt? Just need to know when deciding a table to place the enclosure on. Thanks!
I am not sure how heavy it is except I can estimate the magnitude to be in the "horribly heavy, back breaking" range! I actually roll my wheel barrel in the reptile room to change out the dirt rather than try to move the laying bin. But a sturdy table should hold it just fine. It will be the weight of two bags of dirt. That is beyond what you want to lift yourself, but it won't collapse a standard table.
 
If you
Thats a good question. I got another one as well :) Which combos with his, could a Atrium drainage tray hold one of those breeder bins?
If you want to put a drainage tray under the Laying bin go for the 25" Heavy Duty Drainage Tray. (The Medium Atrium Drainage Tray is not designed for a whole lot of weight.)
 
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